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Git Gud Article.


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#81 Mister Blastman

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 10:55 AM

View Postoldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:


So, to clarify, you have no actual good reason to justify shaming those "beneath" you except you want better matches, which you feel justifies shaming "lesser" players until they go away. Good to know that you don't have any non-selfish reasons for your behavior, now that we've worked our way past your initial absurdities of "shaming is the same as helping" and "winning in video game is the same as preventing your species from going extinct."

Sad, really... Posted Image

Gee, I wonder why PGI wouldn't support your model? Oh, right - because it's a game and the more players they have, they more money they make. Shock!


My previous posts speak for themselves. Your speculation is just that--speculation.

My motivation and support for shaming is for the good of the game and betterment of the player pool. Like I said before, if they're shamed they have two choices:

1. Quit.
2. Get better.

Obviously number two is better. But when everyone plays well, the game is more fun and less frustrating for all.

#82 oldradagast

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:00 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:


My previous posts speak for themselves. Your speculation is just that--speculation.

My motivation and support for shaming is for the good of the game and betterment of the player pool. Like I said before, if they're shamed they have two choices:

1. Quit.
2. Get better.

Obviously number two is better. But when everyone plays well, the game is more fun and less frustrating for all.


And, as I've said before:
- Shaming is not the same as helping. "Git Gud or git rekt" is stupid, useless "advice" that offers nothing to the game. There is literally nothing useful that the new player can do with such "helpful' shaming advice to improve their skills, and at no point have you indicated that you do anything other than "shame the bads."
- Nothing else in your posts indicate anything other than purely selfish motivations, once we got past the nonsense of "shaming = helping" and "winning in video games is the same as winning at life / preventing your species from going extinct."

Sorry not buying it - I've seen the behavior you're endorsing too often in real life, and the motivation is always purely selfish; either a desire to enlarge one's epeen and be "better" than everyone else, or just basic "you're not worthy" BS, where some self-appointed clods take over an organization or group and play silly exclusion games based on middle-school level reasoning. Color me unimpressed with your justifications.

Edited by oldradagast, 22 May 2016 - 11:05 AM.


#83 Ghogiel

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:02 AM

View PostNarcissistic Martyr, on 22 May 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:


I thought it was teamwork is OP...

Translation: ggclose

#84 Mister Blastman

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:05 AM

View Postoldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:


And, as I've said before:
- Shaming is not the same as helping. "Git Gud or git rekt" is stupid, useless "advice" that offers nothing to the game. There is literally nothing useful that the new player can do with such "helpful' shaming advice.
- Nothing else in your posts indicate anything other than purely selfish motivations, once we got past the nonsense of "shaming = helping" and "winning in video games is the same as winning at life / preventing your species from going extinct."

If you honestly can't tell the difference between shaming and useful advice, you're part of the problem, not the solution.


You don't quite comprehend what I'm saying and that's okay, seems to be a prevalent problem these days.

Winning at video games isn't the same as winning at life--winning at video games won't make you successful and definitely won't compensate for being a loser in the real world... HOWEVER

Winning is a natural thing. Winning is what life is all about. Winning is the cure to survival.

If you can't separate my first point from my second one then I see why you might be unable to grasp what I'm saying. You can absolutely correlate the second point with videogames while absolutely separating it from "winning videogames compensates for being a real world loser."

To know you are bad can only occur once you accept it and for many, they must feel shame and dishonor before the Dunning Kruger syndrome is broken.

#85 Nightmare1

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:07 AM

At the other end of the spectrum, opposite "Git Gud," you have the "Hax!" crowd. As soon as they lose, they cry "Hax!" because they just can't accept the fact that they were legitimately beaten.

Both represent the extremes at the end of the spectrum and are an annoyance.

#86 Mister Blastman

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:11 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 22 May 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

At the other end of the spectrum, opposite "Git Gud," you have the "Hax!" crowd. As soon as they lose, they cry "Hax!" because they just can't accept the fact that they were legitimately beaten.

Both represent the extremes at the end of the spectrum and are an annoyance.


Nah, the "git gud" crowd are the solution, the "Hax!" crowd are a symptom of the disease.

#87 Raso

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:15 AM

View Postoldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:


Ah, so now we get to a moment of honesty; you have no actual good reason to justify shaming those "beneath" you except you want better matches, which you feel justifies shaming "lesser" players until they go away. Good to know that it's a purely selfish motivation, now that we've worked our way past your initial absurdities of "shaming is the same as helping" and "winning in video game is the same as preventing your species from going extinct."

Sad, really... Posted Image

Gee, I wonder why PGI wouldn't support your model? Oh, right - because it's a game and the more players they have, they more money they make. Shock!


That's the thing about these sort of people. At first one might think that there is a sort of altruistic overtone to shaming people and being a condescending jerk. Maybe they truly believe that a good motivation to improve is to be ridiculed ans shamed. But often times the more you pry the more you realize that they really just don't want people who aren't "as gud" in their presence and that not everyone has the right to enjoy the same leisurely or hobby activities that they do. They would chase away anyone who doesn't perform at their level for their own enjoyment, not for the betterment of the game, not for the growth of the community but so they had an experience closer to what they vision as being an ideal experience.

Something is severely wrong with these people and it's telling in how they talk about the subject. They use absolute terms, they obsess over the competition and seem to attribute your ability to not suck with some measure of worth. They're sad and petty people. I'd much rather than a balanced life and suck at games than be the best battlemech pilot in the world and be a troglodyte.

#88 Sjorpha

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:18 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 May 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

sounds familiar..... not unlike MWO? (Oh,and pretty much any other similar endeavor)


Well, there is a pretty big difference between magic and MWO culture.

First of all one is a physical game and the other is online, you don't actually have to meet the socially awkward in MWO. In Magic you sit down with them, again and again and again, just you and that weird person, so it's a pretty intimate situation and it's harder so simply ignore who that is and only see the game. The smug face, the often lacking hygiene, the tix, the compulsory shuffling of cards in certain patterns, the magic version of leetspeek delivered as insufferable little mannerisms at every turn...

Magic culture also goes way further beyond the game than MWO does, there is a magic way of talking, a magic way of dressing, a magic way of flirting and so on. For good and for bad it is a complete way of life for many people.

That is the bad part of the difference, the good part is that you don't actually get away with it beyond a certain threshold. The truly competitive in magic don't care for all that nonsense very much and you must actually have a well working team that is comfortable together sharing hotel rooms, partying, supporting each other as friends, helping each other to stay in good physical condition between games and so on, and that requires that you are somewhat socially functional and tolerable to hang out with.

Another good thing about magic type culture is exactly the fact that social awkwardness is accepted there. In one sense it may drive away some people, but on the other hand there are not many places for the socially awkward to be socially accepted. Unlike computer games getting out and actually meeting real people as weird as yourself can be a very good thing to prevent depression and further decay into misery for these people. If a person with those kinds of problems are to get stuck in a game I would certainly recommend a physical game like magic over a computer game because it will fill in more empty gaps in your life, just need to watch out for the money drain of course.

In MWO and other computer games on the other hand you only need to be functional during the actual matches and planning, you only need to be good enough technically. You CAN be a top tier player and still be super unpleasant as a person, if you are one of the top players the top teams will suffer you because of your skills alone. That is a big difference, you would never see a top magic team behave like the Lords sometimes used to do for example.

Of course there is still a limit to how insufferable a competitive player can get away with being even in computer games, but it is much higher than in real life.

I do agree with Blastman too though, it is important to be brutally honest about what players do wrong. (more importantly what you yourself do wrong of course) I don't see that as being rude or sociopathic though. You can't beat around the bush about the fact that someone refuses to see themselves and why they keep losing clearly. Competitive mindset is a good thing, but it can be combined with a nice attitude, there is no contradiction.

#89 BGrey

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:26 AM

View PostRaso, on 22 May 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

Something is severely wrong with these people and it's telling in how they talk about the subject. They use absolute terms, they obsess over the competition and seem to attribute your ability to not suck with some measure of worth. They're sad and petty people. I'd much rather than a balanced life and suck at games than be the best battlemech pilot in the world and be a troglodyte.


There it is again. You lot are doing the same thing they do, just regarding a different subject.

#90 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:31 AM

View PostRaso, on 22 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Here's a quick guideline to use to tell if what you're doing to other players in beneficial to the game or make you into a jerk who is harming the game's community. If it's not something a professional NBA, NFL or MLB player would say or do to another human being then you're probably about to come off as an elitist jerk and damage the community. If the very best of the best of professional sportsman can treat everyone with dignity and still be the best of the best then so can we.


FTFY.

Your post also somehow just reminded me of Plaxico Burress.

Take my comment as you wish.

#91 Mister Blastman

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:32 AM

View PostRaso, on 22 May 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

Something is severely wrong with these people


Natural law has already voted in favor of winners and winning.

#92 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:37 AM

View PostRaso, on 22 May 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

I liked how Halo 3 did it. You had a ranked queue and a casual queue. There was a place where the ultra competitive, high skill level players could congregate and be free and another queue where people who didn't have the luxury or desire to invest their entire lives into the game could hop on and have fun. Both were further split up based on one's rank and skill level.


I have always wanted the QP group queue to be open to solo players who desire to be in, with the full knowledge that it would be a brutal environment.

#93 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:40 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 22 May 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:


To a point, a lot of time, you need to tell people that they suck because, if you don't, they're going to continue to suck for no freaking reason. Like, telling people not to pilot into bad areas or doing stupid things like not twisting. Honestly, the game is full of awful people and there are those out there that probably think that I'm bad. I'm all about listening to better players when I make mistakes. But, when we're playing a game where you're going to absolutely be grouped with folks that are 1-2 tiers below you, folks need to be told when they screw up. I enjoy playing this game for fun and having bad people doing stupid things that are pretty obvious needs to stop so that those same people don't screw me over again in the future. AND, they might enjoy the game more by being corrected and not having their faces pounded over and over again because of their stupid mistakes.

That's just me, though.


How can you without a shadow of a doubt tell between a bad player and one who is merely experimenting with something new, whether Mech, weapon, load out, or tactics?

#94 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:45 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

SHAMING AND EXCLUSION ARE OKAY!
Everything is not equal in life! There are two kinds of people in this world and ONLY two...

The ones doing the pushing and the ones getting pushed. (substitute favorite words here as what I wrote is very G-rated).

I don't watch professional sports. I find them dull and intellectually draining.

And NO, most bads don't know they are bad! The sheer number of threads started on these forums complaining about cheating or bugs or flaws or whatever that are anything but proves that for me.

Bads NEED to be told they are bad. Players help them when they point out they're terrible at the game and once they have that eureka moment--when their Dunning Kruger syndrome is smashed... they can then begin to correct their errors and truly embrace a culture of improvement and eventual success.

When I send my novels out to my beta readers, I WANT them to tell me it sucks! I WANT them to point out all the problems! I WANT them to tell me something is absolutely terrible trash and not worthy of even a piece of soiled toilet paper. It is only then I can see where my weakest points of prose lie, or where the story is broken and figure out how to fix it.

This is why shaming and exclusion are good things. They set standards and things to strive for.


I'm afraid not many people have the intestinal fortitude and/or thick skin that you have to be able to take such things. Even though such a method is obviously a very good fit for you, others require "a different approach" to have the same intended effect.

#95 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:53 AM

View PostChoppah, on 22 May 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

My main problem with super competitive people: Winning is the only thing that is fun in their minds. It matters not what the game's lore, setting, and mechanics are...


This made me chuckle, and not at you.

I really do not understand why many many people insist on playing a game based on an IP very rich in lore but at the same demand that said lore be thrown at the garbage bin.

I mean, what's the ******* point? These people should really go find another game and let the people who enjoy the lore keep it. That or they should really go and build their own ******* game completely devoid of any ******* lore.


View PostChoppah, on 22 May 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

In chess if you lost most of your pieces but still won the game how would that work out for you in real life? Looking at a battlefield of dead soldiers formerly under your command would weigh more on your mind than whatever objective you accomplished. At least a normal person would feel that way, the behavior I see in the hyper competitive tilts on the sociopath side. I imagine their reaction would be the equivalent of "GG close, get rekt scrubs".

TLDR: Winning isn't everything, try your hardest and have fun, win or lose, or go home.


Which is why in MWO I see "close" matches as nothing more that mere Pyrrhic victories. And so I do not quite really get the point of people demanding more of such so-called "victories". Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 22 May 2016 - 11:58 AM.


#96 fat4eyes

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:59 AM

Or you could teach your enemies to get better. Being blasted to death over and over without knowing why doesn't teach them anything, it just pisses them off. Laughing at them over it just pisses them off more. A person who makes tutorial videos or guides (ahem) do much MUCH more in improving the player base than a thousand players who say 'git gud' without saying how.

#97 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 12:06 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

Wrong? I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were the authority.

I'm not narcissistic, I'm truthful. Your problem is you don't want to hear nor handle the truth. The truth sets us free. When a bad player hears and finally realizes they are bad, they can then pick themselves up and achieve something great.

Oh, and since we're fretting over definitions here...



If I said, "I'm the greatest player in the world!" or, "Look at me! Look at my stats and my score!" or, "Hey! You hear about that Blastman fellow, he's awesome!" while looking at myself in a mirror, well, then I might be one. But I never said that in this thread. I said that bad players should know the truth so they can improve.

How is telling someone they are bad selfish! It is selfish to withhold the truth! It is selfish to prop them up with a false sense of pride by giving them participation trophies!

The least selfish thing anyone can ever do is to tell someone where their flaws and mistakes lie--to break the crystal veil so they may understand reality for what it is, not what they think or perceive it as.

Methinks you should try again.


Although I do not fully endorse your "brutally frank" (Posted Image ) methods, I do fully understand the sentiment behind it. But as I said previously, not everyone responds positively to such methods. I should know. Over the years I've been nicknamed "The Troublemaker" in the large and global corporate setting I work in. It has its "issues", especially when it comes to "cultural sensitivity".

Edited by Mystere, 22 May 2016 - 12:06 PM.


#98 Choppah

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 12:14 PM

View PostMystere, on 22 May 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:


This made me chuckle, and not at you.

I really do not understand why many many people insist on playing a game based on an IP very rich in lore but at the same demand that said lore be thrown at the garbage bin.

I mean, what's the ******* point? These people should really go find another game and let the people who enjoy the lore keep it. That or they should really go and build their own ******* game completely devoid of any ******* lore.

While I agree with you, my point was more along the lines of say replacing character textures with solid color skins to gain an advantage. That kind of crap will happen if a game or server allows it and the type of player I described continually do things akin to this. They don't care if its terrorists vs counter-terrorists, solid bright colors are easier for the human eye to see, therefore those skins are necessary in their mind.

Quote

Which is why in MWO I see "close" matches as nothing more that mere Pyrrhic victories. And so I do not quite really get the point of people demanding more of such so-called "victories". Posted Image

Well, there is the distinction between a game and real life. In war, the whole point is to make battles as lopsided as possible to ensure victory. In a game, a balance must be achieved with the game mechanics which allows players as individuals and teams to make the deciding factor in a match. I have seen good matches in other games where one team was ahead on kills but the other team played the objective better and won. Much like the lessons learned during the Vietnam war (and, sadly, still today), just killing more of the enemy does not ensure victory. I am glad more team games have moved on from TDM to objective play, makes for more interesting games and better reflects reality.

Edited by Choppah, 22 May 2016 - 12:18 PM.


#99 Ghogiel

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 12:29 PM

View Postfat4eyes, on 22 May 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Or you could teach your enemies to get better. Being blasted to death over and over without knowing why doesn't teach them anything, it just pisses them off. Laughing at them over it just pisses them off more. A person who makes tutorial videos or guides (ahem) do much MUCH more in improving the player base than a thousand players who say 'git gud' without saying how.

Nothing is stopping you wasting your breath. However I don't have time to teach people who will not and cannot even listen let alone comprehend how to play.

#100 Raso

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 12:31 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:


Natural law has already voted in favor of winners and winning.


Natural law? What is this, a eugenic program? It's a video game! People play it to have fun! It's not some private club where you alone can dictate who does and doesn't have the right to play the game and shot of violating the code of conduct people are free to play however they choose.

It is not your job to throw the "bads" off of the cliff until only the pure, Spartan elites are left. It is not your job to chase them away and cull the herd. By all rights such behavior should be prohibited by the official code of conduct. So since the goal of a competition is to work within a system of rules in order to achieve victory per the rules of the system by acting in the manner you describe you are basically acting outside of the rules of the system. Your inability to keep your mouth shut and act with decency means that you fail at abiding by the rules. It means you lose. You get nothing! Good day sir.

View PostBGrey, on 22 May 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:


There it is again. You lot are doing the same thing they do, just regarding a different subject.


As I've already stated if you can't tell the difference between cruelty and immorality and reprehending someone who is being cruel or immoral you probably are too stupid to be taught the difference.

That said, I believe most people are legitimately aware of what they are arguing and what they are doing when they make this argument. They want the impunity to be petty and cruel but they don't anyone to be allowed to retort or stand up for themselves.

At the core of this manufactured moral dilemma is a false assumption that we can not identify the moral difference between two behaviors, one cruel and one just, and that telling someone to not be cruel is as cruel as the act of cruelty being reprimanded. The reality is, however, that such telling someone not to be cruel and punishing someone for their immorality is not cruel. On the contrary apathy towards such cruelty enables it and enabling cruelty is immoral.

View PostMystere, on 22 May 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:


FTFY.

Your post also somehow just reminded me of Plaxico Burress.

Take my comment as you wish.


Yes, and building upon that don't act like the numerous professional athletes who have been severely reprimanded or arrested for their actions because it seems that people in this thread is full of children and sociopaths and need to be told that it's not okay to be like Aaron Hernandez or Jovan Belcher.

Act like Derek Jeter. Don't be Micheal Vick. Because it seems that needs to be directly called out.

Edited by Raso, 22 May 2016 - 12:34 PM.






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