111 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Alistair Winter, on 22 May 2016 - 01:57 AM, said:

You have to keep in mind that being competitive is a trait that often transcends hobbies. Competitive people are often competitive in many aspects. They want to be the best guy at work, they want to be best at sports, they want to be best at computer games, they want to win board games on double-dates with their wife. I've encountered many people who were competitive video gamers, who were also great athletes. Because their competitive nature drove them to work hard at several things in life.

Yes and no.

For one thing, our society honors people way too much for winning vs. considering how people won. Winning by cheating or being a dishonorable arse-clown should not earn the praise of the masses, but it usually does because of the insane reasoning that generally goes like this: "Everyone gets what they deserve in life, so this guy is rich and powerful, so he must have deserved it and be a good person." Look up the "Just World Fallacy" and you can see what I mean.

On the other hand, in table-top gaming and card games (Magic, etc.) I have run into no shortage of hyper-competitive sociopaths who are total failures in life. Why? Because of their staggering lack of social skills and need to turn every social interaction into an epeen contest with them as the focus of everything. Most people get tired of that toddler-level behavior really quick, thus leaving them rotting in their parents' basement. There are some exceptions of course, though those types are rarely better people - they just have the needed skills to hide their hyper-competitive and selfish behavior when needed to function in life.

[Bishop Steiner]

oldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

There is a certain percentage of the population of childish mindset and runaway ego that is not interested in contributing anything useful to any discussion. They have no facts to back up their claims, no points of interest to discuss - no, instead everything is a mindless epeen competition, with them desperate to prove that they are "better" than others. A depressingly large number of these types would rather let a problem to spin out of control vs. fixing it just so they can laugh at the victims and "prove" how superior they are. They are the types that respond out of hand to every post with BS like "git gud or git rekt!" usually followed up with idiotic personal attacks and insane delusions. While the internet brings this behavior to the surface, consider how wonderful these twerps must be in real life... ugh!

In real life, one runs the risk of having to deal with repercussions, so while I imagine most are less than charming souls, I find it unlikely most would have the ballz to act in IRL in the manner the protection of Internet Anonymity allows them to enjoy on Forums, in Games, etc.

At the Launch Event in SF, I encountered several of the games bigger Dbags in person, including ones who had hate ons for me. It was amazing how much more polite and meek they were about it in person.

[oldradagast]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 May 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

In real life, one runs the risk of having to deal with repercussions, so while I imagine most are less than charming souls, I find it unlikely most would have the ballz to act in IRL in the manner the protection of Internet Anonymity allows them to enjoy on Forums, in Games, etc.

At the Launch Event in SF, I encountered several of the games bigger Dbags in person, including ones who had hate ons for me. It was amazing how much more polite and meek they were about it in person.

Oh, true - but it doesn't change the type of people they are. As somebody once famous said, you are who you are when nobody is watching; the shielding of the internet reveals their true nature. The ability to hide one's rotten nature doesn't change it.

[2fast2stompy]

There's something to be said of gitting gud and that article, but never mind that.

It's stupidly easy to have fun when you're in a match with 2 teams of good players. Not coordinated comp teams, just good pugs. Actually, no, not even good pugs, just pugs of comparable experience and understanding of the game to your own.

Being challenged while not being dragged down by your own team is where the fun comes from, not the simple fact that you're currently in the process of playing a game.

Edited by 2fast2stompy, 22 May 2016 - 07:12 AM.

[Ryllen Kriel]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 May 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

In real life, one runs the risk of having to deal with repercussions, so while I imagine most are less than charming souls, I find it unlikely most would have the ballz to act in IRL in the manner the protection of Internet Anonymity allows them to enjoy on Forums, in Games, etc.

At the Launch Event in SF, I encountered several of the games bigger Dbags in person, including ones who had hate ons for me. It was amazing how much more polite and meek they were about it in person.

No more truthful words have ever been repeated throughout time my friend. If anyone here has done some martial arts training, particularly at a school with a web forum, you see this quite often. Prospective students build themselves up to be badasses until they are face to face in class and get a quick lesson in humility. It's good to remind ourselves to be polite, but it's hard sometimes, some people make it a real challenge.

[Alistair Winter]

oldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

Yes and no.
For one thing, our society honors people way too much for winning vs. considering how people won. Winning by cheating or being a dishonorable arse-clown should not earn the praise of the masses, but it usually does because of the insane reasoning that generally goes like this: "Everyone gets what they deserve in life, so this guy is rich and powerful, so he must have deserved it and be a good person." Look up the "Just World Fallacy" and you can see what I mean.

This sounds about right.

oldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

On the other hand, in table-top gaming and card games (Magic, etc.) I have run into no shortage of hyper-competitive sociopaths who are total failures in life. Why? Because of their staggering lack of social skills and need to turn every social interaction into an epeen contest with them as the focus of everything. Most people get tired of that toddler-level behavior really quick, thus leaving them rotting in their parents' basement. There are some exceptions of course, though those types are rarely better people - they just have the needed skills to hide their hyper-competitive and selfish behavior when needed to function in life.

I have some experience with tabletop gaming, but not card games. In my experience, those are some fairly unique cultures. Lack of social skills is a fairly common denominator, compared to other cultures. Lots of nice people, obviously. Lots of smart, resourceful, educated people. But the average social intelligence is probably lower than what you might encounter if you look at activities such as mainstream sports, or skating culture (including snowboarding, surfing, etc) or certain forms of music and dance. I wouldn't use tabletop gaming as the frame of references for a discussion about being competitive.

But a lot of mainstream athletes have some level of social skills, while still being regarded as a**holes because of their competitive nature. Displays of poor sportsmanship in professional football are fairly common, but I suspect this is more because of culture and hyper-competitiveness rather than lacking social skills or because the athlete in question is a loser who lives in a basement.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

To be fair, both extremes are as bad the bottom and the top.

I mean the bottom half don't exactly cover themselves in glory, the thousands of nerf this topics because it killed me and it can't possibly be my fault threads evidence this just in this community

[Sir Wulfrick]

ThreeStooges, on 21 May 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Seen it typed in chat and to those who use it I laugh at your ten year old mentality. One bad match doesn't mean you suck at the game. You just had a bad match and with all the disconnects due to server issues that pgi themselves has admitted to as well as saying they won't have a hot fix till monday at the earliest you might want to read this:

https://www.pastemag...-take-game.html

I agree completely with that article. The sad thing is that the "git gud" crowd don't even recognise (or if they do, refuse to acknowledge) that their toxicity is directly detrimental to their chosen & professed hobby. Not only that but it serves to harden the stereotype that most people have of "gamers" as being childish, vaguely sociopathic individuals who are incapable of normal human interactions.

I take no issue with people wanting to play a game to an extreme competitive level, in fact in many instances I admire their skill & dedication. Same with almost any sport: even if I have no interest in sports, I can nevertheless admire the dedication and time that pro sportspeople put in to their chosen game to try to be the best. One thing that perhaps should be the subject of further thought though is this. Take football (as in soccer): how many times do we see professional footballers actively trying to suppress amateur interest in their sport? Never. Simply doesn't happen. Most pro sports players want new talent to enter their chosen game because it produces more skilled players against whom they can test their skill.

Why then is there a small core of toxic games (who claim to be "gud") who actively try to suppress the entry of new skilled players in to their chosen game? I really don't get it. It can't just be stereotypical sociopathy. Maybe it's a deep-down suppressed level of insecurity. Don't know.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Oh and i forgot, you have the casual care bares who find GG offensive.

[Sjorpha]

oldradagast, on 22 May 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

On the other hand, in table-top gaming and card games (Magic, etc.) I have run into no shortage of hyper-competitive sociopaths who are total failures in life. Why? Because of their staggering lack of social skills and need to turn every social interaction into an epeen contest with them as the focus of everything. Most people get tired of that toddler-level behavior really quick, thus leaving them rotting in their parents' basement. There are some exceptions of course, though those types are rarely better people - they just have the needed skills to hide their hyper-competitive and selfish behavior when needed to function in life.

I play magic competitively, well semi competitively but I'm in the loop so to speak, and I agree there are an incredible amount those people you describe.

But the funny thing is, these hyper competitive sociopaths never seem to reach beyond a certain point of success. All the truly excellent players that actally win big tournaments and reach top 8 in pro tours and such that I've met are super nice people, they are people like Melissa Detora, Olle Råde and Dan Elsik who are all extremely nice, humble, helpful and produce vast amounts of free content for the community.

The sociopaths just seem to mill around on the tournaments and acting superior, they netdeck metadecks and farm wins to get decent placements, but they are never the ones actually bringing new decks or interesting insights that drives competitive play. I think there is simply a need for actual social skills to excel in magic at the top level, because successful brewing and competitive evolution is a highly social process, you need to be both nice and super smart to go all the way. This creates a glass roof at the level just below the top against which all the socially awkward competitive wannabes pile up.

[KHETTI]

If you play a game that is PvP based, then you have to expect this attitude to some degree, that's the whole point of PvP, to be better than your opponents.
As for the bandwagon of hate that's been directed at some Reviewers, well its kind of stupid, the point of the videos is to showcase the game, not the skills of the person playing.
Unfortunately it just reflects really poorly on what gamers are like, but i will hazard a guess that most of the critics aren't actually competitive at all, they just think they are.

[oldradagast]

Sjorpha, on 22 May 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

I play magic competitively, well semi competitively but I'm in the loop so to speak, and I agree there are an incredible amount those people you describe.

But the funny thing is, these hyper competitive sociopaths never seem to reach beyond a certain point of success. All the truly excellent players that actally win big tournaments and reach top 8 in pro tours and such that I've met are super nice people, they are people like Melissa Detora, Olle Råde and Dan Elsik who are all extremely nice, humble, helpful and produce vast amounts of free content for the community.

The sociopaths just seem to mill around on the tournaments and acting superior, they netdeck metadecks and farm wins to get decent placements, but they are never the ones actually bringing new decks or interesting insights that drives competitive play. I think there is simply a need for actual social skills to excel in magic at the top level, because successful brewing and competitive evolution is a highly social process, you need to be both nice and super smart to go all the way. This creates a glass roof at the level just below the top against which all the socially awkward competitive wannabes pile up.

Quite true. I should have been more clear in that the Magic "git gud" sociopath crowd is good enough to win local tournaments and drive away casual and new players, but they are not the top players for exactly the reasons you've said. Unfortunately, the damage is still done by the "git gud" types since they have a remarkable ability to scare away players, damage a gaming environment, and perpetuate the stereotype of gamers as being socially mal-adjusted borderline sociopaths. I'm not saying gamers ARE such people, but the ones who are create problems way out of scale with what their influence should be.

[Raso]

I've had people yell at me and accuse me of deliberately making bad decisions or not playing good enough in numerous games for numerous reasons. They make it sound as if by not being a skilled player that I am deliberately griefing them and actively trying to inhibit their ability to enjoy the game. This self centered and narcissistic mindset is unhealthy. I think even in Spartan society someone would get slapped for being that level of a jerk to other people.

I think when it gets to the point that people rage quit and threaten to report for a Code of Conduct violation because you made the choice not to run a meta or competitive mech/hero/character/build that there is a serious and toxic probably with the community.

But when winning at ANY cost is toted as the end all and be all justification for every action you do while the concept of sportsmanship and decency is laughed at as a naive is it any wonder why gaming is where it is now? The over all culture of the "play to win" crowed was never forced to concede to the sad fact that it has to interact with other human beings. It was never made to worry about decency and treating one and other with respect. It was cultivated under a self center and narcissistic mindset of "be a jerk unto others before they can be a jerk unto you" because that's how you put your opponent on the defensive and you CAN NOT assume that your opponent is a decent human being because that sort of risk loses games and winning is everything. Period.

When playing as an Urban mech is considered a micro aggression and not instantly knowing who to focus fire on makes you abusive and is considered a micro aggression I will officially walk away from online gaming forever.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 22 May 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

I play magic competitively, well semi competitively but I'm in the loop so to speak, and I agree there are an incredible amount those people you describe.

But the funny thing is, these hyper competitive sociopaths never seem to reach beyond a certain point of success. All the truly excellent players that actally win big tournaments and reach top 8 in pro tours and such that I've met are super nice people, they are people like Melissa Detora, Olle Råde and Dan Elsik who are all extremely nice, humble, helpful and produce vast amounts of free content for the community.

The sociopaths just seem to mill around on the tournaments and acting superior, they netdeck metadecks and farm wins to get decent placements, but they are never the ones actually bringing new decks or interesting insights that drives competitive play. I think there is simply a need for actual social skills to excel in magic at the top level, because successful brewing and competitive evolution is a highly social process, you need to be both nice and super smart to go all the way. This creates a glass roof at the level just below the top against which all the socially awkward competitive wannabes pile up.

sounds familiar..... not unlike MWO? (Oh,and pretty much any other similar endeavor)

[Bishop Steiner]

Raso, on 22 May 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

I've had people yell at me and accuse me of deliberately making bad decisions or not playing good enough in numerous games for numerous reasons. They make it sound as if by not being a skilled player that I am deliberately griefing them and actively trying to inhibit their ability to enjoy the game. This self centered and narcissistic mindset is unhealthy. I think even in Spartan society someone would get slapped for being that level of a jerk to other people.

I think when it gets to the point that people rage quit and threaten to report for a Code of Conduct violation because you made the choice not to run a meta or competitive mech/hero/character/build that there is a serious and toxic probably with the community.

But when winning at ANY cost is toted as the end all and be all justification for every action you do while the concept of sportsmanship and decency is laughed at as a naive is it any wonder why gaming is where it is now? The over all culture of the "play to win" crowed was never forced to concede to the sad fact that it has to interact with other human beings. It was never made to worry about decency and treating one and other with respect. It was cultivated under a self center and narcissistic mindset of "be a jerk unto others before they can be a jerk unto you" because that's how you put your opponent on the defensive and you CAN NOT assume that your opponent is a decent human being because that sort of risk loses games and winning is everything. Period.

When playing as an Urban mech is considered a micro aggression and not instantly knowing who to focus fire on makes you abusive and is considered a micro aggression I will officially walk away from online gaming forever.

don't forget the Spirit of Entitlement (for the last 20-30 years society has asked us to teach Timmy and Jane that they are all special snowflakes) and the Bully Mirror Effect (pushed around IRL, etc, discover something one is good at, becomes the Bully online) and other such endearing aspects that are becoming more or more prevalent, here in the Age of the Wimp.

[Raso]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 May 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

don't forget the Spirit of Entitlement (for the last 20-30 years society has asked us to teach Timmy and Jane that they are all special snowflakes) and the Bully Mirror Effect (pushed around IRL, etc, discover something one is good at, becomes the Bully online) and other such endearing aspects that are becoming more or more prevalent, here in the Age of the Wimp.

I see it a little differently. I still see bullies getting away with being bullies and even being rewarded for it, socially, while people who are only guilty of being average become the target of reprimands when they have the audacity to stand up for themselves. Socially we very much promote and reward the sort of this ultra-Spartan-esque culling of the weak and unwanted that reinforces a culture of exclusion and a system of social hierarchy.

As it pertains to competitive online gaming this has helped to breed this culture of superiority where harassment is viewed as a legitimate tactic to gain an advantage over your enemy and both shaming and insulting your team mates is viewed as a means to cull the herd of weak and unwanted players. No competitive organization one earth allows this level of vitriol. That's not to say that they let just anyone play at the highest level, that's just silly, but they place the act of being civil and treating each other with decency as a much higher priority than the average online gamer. They understand that at the end of the day being a better person is more important than being a better player and that by being a better player you contribute to the well being of the sport, a concept that most gamers scoff at due to their narcissistic mindset.

[oldradagast]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 May 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

don't forget the Spirit of Entitlement (for the last 20-30 years society has asked us to teach Timmy and Jane that they are all special snowflakes) and the Bully Mirror Effect (pushed around IRL, etc, discover something one is good at, becomes the Bully online) and other such endearing aspects that are becoming more or more prevalent, here in the Age of the Wimp.

Eh, while there is a "spirit of entitlement" on some level in all generations of humanity, I feel it is blown way out of proportion to what actually happens in recent years. I've grown very tired of hearing stories from the previous generation touting how "kids these days all get trophies just for showing up." It's simply not true, at least not in the grand scale. That same older generation also conveniently forgets all the things they had easier in life (more affordable college, health care, housing, better employment stability, etc.), thus putting them in no real position to judge others when they complain for not being able to achieve the same end results with the same effort put in, IMHO.

Oh, sure - one can search online or find anecdotes of teams where "everyone got a trophy," but I see no real evidence that such things have increased in frequency as a percentage of the population in recent times. Yes, thanks to the internet and bored media outlets with nothing to do but push agendas, such as "kids these days suck and are to blame for all the problems, especially the decisions made by their parents before said kids were even born," it is easier to find such stories, but that's about it. I never received a trophy for anything for showing up, and I've talked to plenty of people of my generation, and they've all had a similar experience. I also don't know anyone in my generation who thinks trophies just for showing up are appropriate, and I'm an older member of that supposedly "entitled" generation.

On the flip side, I also feel that a game is a game. It is foolish to withhold all rewards and all praise except for "the very best" since it is a game, nothing more. Any environment in which everyone but the very best is treated like dirt is going to be a horrible environment full of back-stabbing sociopaths who will win at any cost. So, while giving people a trophy just for showing up is silly, saying that they deserve nothing for not being the best - aka "git gud or git rekt" is probably even more foolish because of the toxic environment it breeds.

Edited by oldradagast, 22 May 2016 - 09:10 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Raso, on 22 May 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

Socially we very much promote and reward the sort of this ultra-Spartan-esque culling of the weak and unwanted that reinforces a culture of exclusion and a system of social hierarchy.

As it pertains to competitive online gaming this has helped to breed this culture of superiority where harassment is viewed as a legitimate tactic to gain an advantage over your enemy and both shaming and insulting your team mates is viewed as a means to cull the herd of weak and unwanted players.

Shaming is okay. Shaming does good by making the bads realize they are... bad. I want the bads to be excluded--that's a good thing. If they're upset and they leave, good riddance. I won't miss them. Maybe the matchmaker will have more even games with less 12-1 stomps where half the team does less than a hundred damage.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 22 May 2016 - 09:18 AM.

[wanderer]

We'd probably have a lot less git-guding if the matchmaker/tier system actually worked to split the good from the not-so-good from the "why on earth did you download this game" players.

But it doesn't, because Paul believes the best thing for PSR is automatically pushing everyone up into T1.

Players who have no reason to be in a match with other players is the ideal breeding ground for gitguds. Fix the tier system so people can, do and will go meaningfully downwards with poor and repeated performance in matches and you might see the term used with less righteousness.

A ranking system that is a participation reward is ultimately useless.

Edited by wanderer, 22 May 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Raso]

Mister Blastman, on 22 May 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

Shaming is okay. Shaming does good by making the bads realize they are... bad. I want the bads to be excluded--that's a good thing. If they're upset and they leave, good riddance. I won't miss them. Maybe the matchmaker will have more even games with less 12-1 stomps where half the team does less than a hundred damage.

No shaming is not ok. Most people who don't play well already know they don't play well. Even if they lie about it and blame their entire team very few people are so stupid that they do not know they are not good at something. Shaming someone will aggravate them and eventually push them away. It contributes to the culture of exclusion where only the eleite aour allowed to enjoy a gameplay experience.

Here's a quick guideline to use to tell if what you're doing to other players in beneficial to the game or make you into a jerk who is harming the game's community. If it's not something a professional NBA, NFL or MLB player would say to another human being then you're probably about to come off as an elitist jerk and damage the community. If the very best of the best of professional sportsman can treat everyone with dignity and still be the best of the best then so can we.