1017 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

The KDK 3 needs scaled back for the same reason the Jag ac40 got nerfed. It's a glass canon but not a very fragile one. It can easily out position any of its comparable assaults with comparable firepower.

I get people like having a better version of the Mauler. I do. High mounts, more maneuverable than most heavies, does 80 pts with good accuracy at 450m over about a second.

All people want is a balanced game. This is the same argument that kept the Clans OP as **** for 2 years.

This isn't rocket science. Ideal would be to do with its hardpoints what happened with the Mauler/Banshee et al, have them same or lower height as default one. Unlikely as PGI won't remodel. So start with remove quirks. Soon where it falls out.

Not nerf uac10. Not mess with ghost heat.

Conversely under performing mechs should get quirks. Kodiak and others.

That the high mounted super nimble Dire Wolf loadout with a bunch of extra quirks needs dialed back isn't some insane overreaction. Saying "no you have to leave it as it is or all KDKs will get super-nerfed to oblivion" is.

[Belacose]

Any thoughts as to why Twinky said he'll never play the Kodiak 3 again?

Does he have a reputation of only playing lower tier mechs for the challenge?

Despises assaults, clan mechs in general, or Ghost Bear in particular?

[Mcgral18]

Belacose, on 26 May 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Any thoughts as to why Twinky said he'll never play the Kodiak 3 again?

Does he have a reputation of only playing lower tier mechs for the challenge?

Despises assaults, clan mechs in general, or Ghost Bear in particular?

Because it has 1k Average damage

He wants to frame that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Because it has 1k Average damage

He wants to frame that.

so if it's so OP... shouldn't be hard ot maintain, eh?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

The KDK 3 needs scaled back for the same reason the Jag ac40 got nerfed. It's a glass canon but not a very fragile one. It can easily out position any of its comparable assaults with comparable firepower.

Not nerf uac10. Not mess with ghost heat.

Honestly, if there are two things that should be done, it is this:

• Remove all quirks.
  
• If the specific build is still too strong, apply higher ghost heat to UAC10s because the reason it was never strong on the Whale was because it never had the speed to get within range consistently (and they weren't high mounted, but that is not the biggest strength of the 4 UAC10 Kodiak).

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

so if it's so OP... shouldn't be hard ot maintain, eh?

Depends on the make up (and the number of Potatos)

The damage is inflated by 6 Assault mechs (~300 extra average damage for ~3 extra Assaults)



I don't doubt I'll keep my 10 Kd ratio.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Honestly, if there are two things that should be done, it is this:

• (and they weren't high mounted, but that is not the biggest strength of the 4 UAC10 Kodiak).

considering how massive the portion of the KDK is that it still has to expose to leverage those hardpoint s (and it ain't like it can just use the top mounts...since it can't see above it's cockpit level) that's one of the most laughable things when people whip it out. You have to expose the top 25-30% of the WIDEST mech in the whole game. Sure, it could have to expose 50%, but if you can't return fire on a "hillhumping" KDK3 at the 400 meter or so effective combat range it has, you shoudl probably just uninstall.

And the mobility IS nice tactically. But once you actually are in a face to face fro.... it's not so much faster and more agile as to make a huge difference, especially when you have to stare to realyl maximize that firepower, and twist a heck of a lot further to hopefully spread. (6x UAC5 DWF on the other hand just needs to doggy shake to spread damage, and while the KDK is taking it's guns off line to wist far enough... DWF can jsut keep firing, and mostly hitting at CT).

KDK3 is a great mech. Only seen a small handful leverage it to be more than that, and Twinky and McGral going God Tier certainly didn't have any impact on my weekend, both facing and running KDKs.

*shrugs* Whatever. It's not that interesting a variant anyhow, unless Boating Meta is your cup of tea. But you know as well as I do is that it's not going to be the only KDK targeted or screwed in this.

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Depends on the make up (and the number of Potatos)

The damage is inflated by 6 Assault mechs (~300 extra average damage for ~3 extra Assaults)



I don't doubt I'll keep my 10 Kd ratio.

Wait.. so the conditions just might have inflated things?

Say it ain't so.

IDK...1000 dmg match average but only 2+ kills per match... seems like it's an awfully inefficient killer to guarantee that. 400-500 a kill seems....kind of sloppy.

[XvDraxvX]

I rarely say anything on the forums these days.

I purchased the Kodiak collectors pack and the hero add-on the day it was teased.

I feel like while i think the KDK-3 may need to some adjustment i think we should wait until the mech has been released for a complete Month.

The past week we have seen a increased number of Assaults per match because of the Leader board Event, the Kodiak being the new hotness, and people wanting to max the skills on it.

I say we give it some time for the numbers to stabilize to a normal pattern before we start to look at needed nerfs. I think the worse thing we can do as a community is call for reactionary nerfs in a manipulated or abnormal meta. We would start to set further precedence for knee jerk nerfs without time to show the long term effects.

I want to reiterate i am not opposed to nerfs but i think we should wait for the game to normalize with the Kodiak before we decide what must be done with it.

We may even find that once things calm down with the event, and the new mech smell wears off the Kodiak that people start to turn away from it. People will go back to their Oxides, Marauders, and BlackKnights and maybe we will find that in a normal scenario/meta the Kodiak is high but not at the top overall.

Maybe we wont, maybe the Kodiak remains at the top and Dominates all. Well at least then you would have more accurate data without outside interference from events or New Mech Syndrome.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Wait.. so the conditions just might have inflated things?

Say it ain't so.

IDK...1000 dmg match average but only 2+ kills per match... seems like it's an awfully inefficient killer to guarantee that. 400-500 a kill seems....kind of sloppy.

The fact KMDD isn't tracked puts bias into your favour here, as there were plenty of times I cored half the mechs in the match, but had all of them stolen.
Sorry, no Killing Blow, we're taking half of the score away.


Also, I never said it didn't, but my best scoring match was also in a 3 Assault match (1500 damage, 7 Solo Kill, 8 Kill)

[DONTOR]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Highlander'd.

My new favorite phrase / insult.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

The fact KMDD isn't tracked puts bias into your favour here, as there were plenty of times I cored half the mechs in the match, but had all of them stolen.
Sorry, no Killing Blow, we're taking half of the score away.


Also, I never said it didn't, but my best scoring match was also in a 3 Assault match (1500 damage, 7 Solo Kill, 8 Kill)

Undoubtedly. Though if C-UACs were more efficient killers, overall (great damage dealers and tons of fun, regardless) be a hot harder to get "stolen" from.

But this isn't a knock aimed at you, or a commentary on the KDK really, just something I've noticed with my many UAC10 and 20 toting mechs. Fun to use, loads of dmg, but overall lower KDr than their IS counterparts. Even with their shorter bursts, they simply aren't the "killers" that IS ACs are with PPFLD. Of course, being lighter, smaller, and able to pump out mor eDPS, that's fine by me.

But the bigger thing for me is the yutzes claiming LB-X are fine.... ran a 4x LB-10X/4x ERSL KDK for fun, and unless I was mugging someone in a back alley, it was the biggest paint scratching waste of 1000 tons I ever tried. (sorry, detour)

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Honestly, if there are two things that should be done, it is this:

• Remove all quirks.
  
• If the specific build is still too strong, apply higher ghost heat to UAC10s because the reason it was never strong on the Whale was because it never had the speed to get within range consistently (and they weren't high mounted, but that is not the biggest strength of the 4 UAC10 Kodiak).

I'm cautious about any ghost heat changes. If hardpoints were lower it'd be less of an issue. I don't want to nerf builds on the Dire either. While the lower weight and size of uac10s does create a bigger boating issue and maybe an overall GH change to 10s is in order I'm twitchy about game wide changes over 1 chassis.

It just irks me that if the KDK had lower hardpoints and better hitboxes it would be a rock solid, great Clan performer. The assault they needed. Maybe some structure quirks and some minor mobility quirks on the under performers but a great assault.

Instead they went for over-the-shoulder mounts and crazy mobility quirks on 2 variants, nothing on the others and gave it all CT hitboxes. Like it was designed to sell well and created issues harder to fix via other balance metrics.

Hitboxes need fixed on principle but that's always hit/miss. Badly designed hitboxes should *never* be a balancing factor. Build every mech as well as possible for hitboxes. Structure quirks if they're still bad and hardpoints are bad. Mobility quirks if overall design is bad (low engine cap, bad hitboxes, low hardpoints).

Balance weapons overall against concept of boating.

Maybe steeper GH on uac10s is a good idea, maybe it's a potential problem we hadn't seen before. The KDK3 is an issue but I don't want to make sweeping strokes on a solution to a single point problem.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mystere, on 26 May 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

I was actually thinking of Age of Conan's open-world PvP when I wrote that. A lot of players loudly rejoiced when their demand for a "Blood and Gore" server was obliged to by Funcom, only to abandon it in droves for the safety of the PVE-only servers when the real PvP folks ripped through them.

Oh, yeah, in a sword and board MMO game. YEah, games like that are annoying as **** cuz you spend more time getting ganked by lvl 50s then you ever do actually PVPing. PVP is evenly matched games, but alot of "PVP" in those games involves a pack of terrible lvl 50s who cant hang at their lvl running through the noobie zone killing all the 20-30s and lower just because they know they can win.

I played Aion and abandoned their open world for the PVE Only as well. I honestly dont play an MMO for PVP and having high as lvl players running through and waxing me just for the fun of it, yeah, kills the enjoyment of the game for me in real short order.

But a PVE mode in this game, one that is honestly better made as a cooperative, story mode based campaign, yeah, its just simply the better option honestly. Done right, and made indepth and long, the PVE Coop campaign would probably wreck PVP and we would have the same issue here as we do in Armored Warfare, everyone is in PVE cuz its more enjoyable then PVP.

[Pelanistra]

Don't touch it, no matter how much people cry. It kills well, as it should, in the hands of a skilled drop team and pilot. It gets killed easily against skilled teams and pilots.

I'm genuinely surprised at how balanced the Kodiak feels, even if it can't face down an atlas, nor laser vomit IS assaults, and Oxides do their usual carnage....even have trouble with the 'why dont you just die already baby crabs' ....LOL.

Its a breath of fresh air. Game changer for a more realistic MWO universe. (ie lets see what the proportion of IS vs CLAN mechs run in the tounament)

I've enjoyed learning how to play it, and how to use it effectively.

Too many 12 year old kids what their quick kills, get a quirk to nerf a mech they have trouble with, then leave the game in 3 months because the next best thing hits Steam.

[MischiefSC]

Scrimbot, on 26 May 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

Don't touch it, no matter how much people cry. It kills well, as it should, in the hands of a skilled drop team and pilot. It gets killed easily against skilled teams and pilots.

I'm genuinely surprised at how balanced the Kodiak feels, even if it can't face down an atlas, nor laser vomit IS assaults, and Oxides do their usual carnage....even have trouble with the 'why dont you just die already baby crabs' ....LOL.

Its a breath of fresh air. Game changer for a more realistic MWO universe. (ie lets see what the proportion of IS vs CLAN mechs run in the tounament)

I've enjoyed learning how to play it, and how to use it effectively.

Too many 12 year old kids what their quick kills, get a quirk to nerf a mech they have trouble with, then leave the game in 3 months because the next best thing hits Steam.

Nice completely unrelated analogy. None of the people pointing out the obvious balance issues with the Kodiak are kids with no tenure.

Mostly it's the comp players. Also a ton of veteran players. It's not complex - no genius required in seeing the issues with 80 pts of ballistic damage at 450m over 1 second day or so on high mounts in a fast and maneuverable mech. Then quirking it up.

The argument of "some people are bad and so need op mechs, good players are good anyway" isn't a rational argument. Balancing g mechs isn'tnew, nor is people wanting to keep advantages.

[Death Proof]

The KDK-3 is a balanced mech; if you can't kill it or are being killed by it frequently, you need to learn its weaknesses and exploit those weaknesses just like any other heavy-hitting mech on the battlefield. Just like you did when the Dire Whale was the new bully on the block.

If you are a top tier player that thinks it's too powerful...that's because it's actually a good, well-balanced mech...and you're just using this mech as the virtual equivalent of tight pleather pants to show the bulge of your massive e-peen. But I digress...

As for the other variants...they need help. I think the other KDK variants need some structure or speed quirks.

[Roadkill]

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

The KDK 3 needs scaled back for the same reason the Jag ac40 got nerfed.

Then nerf the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90 at the same time. The KDK-3 is no more OP than any of those 3, so fair is fair, right?

It makes no sense to partially correct a problem. If you're going to argue that the KDK-3 needs to be nerfed because it's a little too good, then you're either biased or you have to argue to nerf all of the equally (or more) powerful Mechs right along with it.

It's not a bad thing for the Clans to have one assault that can keep up with the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90.

[Hit the Deck]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

If you're going to argue that the KDK-3 needs to be nerfed because it's a little too good, then you're either biased or you have to argue to nerf all of the equally (or more) powerful Mechs right along with it.

It needs to be nerfed from the current state, preferably by stripping all of its quirks, because we need to see how it performs without the positive quirks.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

Then nerf the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90 at the same time. The KDK-3 is no more OP than any of those 3, so fair is fair, right?

It makes no sense to partially correct a problem. If you're going to argue that the KDK-3 needs to be nerfed because it's a little too good, then you're either biased or you have to argue to nerf all of the equally (or more) powerful Mechs right along with it.

It's not a bad thing for the Clans to have one assault that can keep up with the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90.

The Banshee has moderate quirks at best. "nerfing it" by removing the quirks would not dislodge it from being one of the best IS assaults.

The MX90 has velocity and range quirks, so it would be forced to fight at a closer range. Don't own it, can't pass judgement.

Nerf the atlas and the MWO community will drown vancouver in several million tons of salt. They (we) begged for Atlas buffs right from the clan invasion and only got them in December.

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

Then nerf the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90 at the same time. The KDK-3 is no more OP than any of those 3, so fair is fair, right?

It makes no sense to partially correct a problem. If you're going to argue that the KDK-3 needs to be nerfed because it's a little too good, then you're either biased or you have to argue to nerf all of the equally (or more) powerful Mechs right along with it.

It's not a bad thing for the Clans to have one assault that can keep up with the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90.

Really.

So if I take the Mauler, put all the hardpoints at cockpit level and give it the same buffs it'd be just the same?

With all its quirks gone it would still be a match for the Atlas, WubShee and MX90.

Again. 80pts in about a second at 450m. 'You can twist it away', so what, 40 pts to CT and 40 pts to one ST? So why did the BK get nerfed again? I mean you could just twist it away, right? Give it back all the cooldown quirks! KDK3 has about 23DPS even allowing for jamming and moves pretty much like a heavy plus has over the shoulder mounts. If you gave the Stalker the exact same mobility as the KDK3 it would be totally balanced I guess?

This isn't some magical surprise. Trying to say anything else that is balanced needs nerfed because toning down the KDK3 is.... unfair?

Not the first time PGI has released a badly balanced mech nor the first time a diehard group has clung to it saying it's totally supposed to be OP and that the only reason it's OP is because everyone else isn't just... adapting to it being OP.

The point is that it shouldn't be OP. It should be balanced. Still great, still viable, still a great assault. Just in balance with the other assaults.