1017 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 June 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

You assumed a bit much on this, all I was providing was a counter example, not all of them that I could think of.

Polar and Apline still favor ERLL assaults.

Caustic and Tourmaline favors low heat dakka, Kodiak is nice for this, but if you are expecting a push and are using Maulers, the Whale may be better just for the extra UAC5s, though Gauss/PPCs could be strong on this too. The quad 10 Kodiak will be too hot for this map unless you are using it to support an Atlas rush imo (and even then, may be too hot).

Frozen will still favor the Atlas because of durability and how easy it is to force a brawl.

Plexis, HPG, River City, Crimson, Mining all have potential for the Kodiak, but it really depends on the strat since these tend to be more flexible maps.

All I'm saying, is don't go leaping to judgements quite yet based on the tournament, let's see how it fairs on other maps first before we go that route.




You say this, but I've seen more PeepGauss Kodiaks from teams like my own, Lords, AS, 228, and Storm Jag than I have Dakka. The Dakka Kodiak is easier to setup since you just dakka rush with it, but it isn't the strongest strat on the map from what I've seen, the long range setup like you said just requires good positioning and a bit more effort. It may be a small map, but canyons can wreak havoc on brawling/push teams. Especially if a range team is appropriately spreading out and rotating in response to your movements.

At this point changing the KDK mid-event would be uncool. However statistically it's a big imbalance for representation and while the KDK3 may not be as dominant on other maps it's still got a lot of strengths and will probably be well represented. I'm a long way from convinced this event will end with comp players agreeing 'meh, it's okay. Well balanced against existing assaults' though.

Still needs balanced for pug queue too.

I admit a guilty pleasure at seeing the gauss + ERPPC builds. Surprised me - I've never really played with Clan mechs for pokey. However my secret favorite mech is the Banshee 3E with Gauss and 3 PPCs and a 400XL. Nobody is ever going to call the Suicide Ride meta but that 45pt PPFLD and the mobility to deploy it is a sweet surprise. Plays absolutely best on River City; people peek the ramps and you can one-shot cockpit them.

So few people even know how to play with/against PPFLD poking anymore.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

the AC/5+PPC Banshee is also pretty awesome. I couldn't get myself to run the GR/3PPC build out worth for **** on a Banshee, so I just stuck to the "old meta".

35 PPLFD. 15% AC/5 cooldown + 12% level 5 module makes for some pretty comfortable running. It's pretty f***** slow, however.

Then again, every time I think it's too slow, I take it into a couple of matches, and immediately change my mind.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 05 June 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

I admit a guilty pleasure at seeing the gauss + ERPPC builds.

Its really only because it is better against the lighter chassis than the Battlemaster with ERLL, if it wasn't for that you would just be seeing ERLL Battlemasters because they are better against Grasshoppers and other assaults imo (and has the same head hitbox problem as the Kodiak).

MischiefSC, on 05 June 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

I'm a long way from convinced this event will end with comp players agreeing 'meh, it's okay. Well balanced against existing assaults' though.

The best scenario, would be that it is strong in certain areas, but not a goto given like the old Meta Whale, because it isn't as powerful as the old meta Whale. How that matches up with reality is yet to be seen.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 June 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[1453 R]

I'm going to just point something out here, really.

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Chicken Littles wont stop until the KDK3 is nerfed into obscurity, so since we know it's going to happen, can we just get it done with?

And since we know PGI can't do anything without going to extremes, just get ready for it to be worthless.

My only real question is after the 3 falls, which poor KDK will earn the ire of the Butthurt masses next? I only ask, because I'd like to know before spending time, money, effort, etc, mastering versions that are just going to get Highlander'd.

I am guessing the next target of the OP whinefest will be the Spirit Bear, which of course will also get the inevitable "P2W" tag?

While I haven't really tracked the tournament much outside of browsing through Wintersdark's thread (mostly because I feel like Piranha is chasing the wrong horse with all this 'e-sport' nonsense, though hey - more power to Ultracomps gunning for monies, I guess), I do understand that the Canyon qualifiers were dripping KDK-3s. Most people at this point get that yes, the KDK-3 is going to end up on the wrong end of the Orbital Foam Strike.

Thirty pages ago, the thread was about "Clench your cheeks, folks - we're on course for another Victor/Highlander PGI Volcanic Overreaction. Pray your non-Dakkabears can escape the Krakatoan vengeance about to descend upon them." Remember when Victors and Highlanders used to actually be really, really good? Remember how they're totally bottom-tier sh!tmechs now that comps wouldn't pilot even on Drunken F*ckabouts Friday where nobody cares in the least how one's end-of-match screen looks?

While the tournament has possibly earned the Kodiak a stay of grace, it will also likely end with the utter destruction of the 'Mech if it continues to be as omnipresent as it was in this first qualifier round. Even Piranha can manage to spot a clue if it's taped to the end of an I-beam and swung into their faces by the Hulk, and they don't particularly care for I-beam-to-the-face reminders of goofs.

At this point I don't think anyone is seriously trying to save the KDK-3 from its inevitable date with the guillotine (except Gyrok). The best we can reasonably hope for is that if we throw enough countervailing pleas out there, enough examples of how KDK-not-3s are not Ruining MWO Forever, then Piranha will restrict the execution to just the Dakkabear and the rest of the chassis will be allowed to merely be 'meh' instead of 'euugh...'

Even given just the qualifier round on the tournament, though...I'm thinking that's a pretty forlorn hope. I'd say things like "damned ultracomps ruining it for the rest of us"...but really, it's not their fault. Even the just-for-kicks teams were using Dakkabears for the most part, according to Wintersdark's thread. Comps wanna win, they use what they figure will get them there, and Piranha will inevitably ensure that what got them there can never get anyone else there again. Just how the cycle goes around here.

Clench up, Bish. Enjoy your Stink Bear while it still works. I'll keep on trucking with the Spirit Bear as long as it still works. I owe it to the spirit of my Victors to give their last reincarnation a proper send-off.

[Dino Might]

To play devil's advocate:

Just because KDK-3 is the most popular assault does not mean it is far out of balance. If the KDK-3 was even a sliver of a bit better in the particular regards that matter, everyone would flock to it when playing a "best of" type matchup. The only thing we can really conclude from the tournament numbers is that the KDK-3 is the best assault for game types of this tournament. We can't tell how much better it is than other assaults from what we've seen.

[Roadkill]

MischiefSC, on 05 June 2016 - 01:55 AM, said:

If it's what works best almost all the time.... that's not balanced.

Unbalanced != OP.

If you've been paying attention, you'll remember that pretty much everyone is saying that all other Clan Assaults are pretty poor. All it takes is for the Kodiak to be the best Clan Assault and on par with the best IS Assaults and it's going to show up in massively disporportionate numbers.

Coincidentally, that appears to be what's happening.

It's also very interesting that the yardstick by which the KDK-3's OP-ness has been measured isn't the most popular build in the tournament. Shocked, I am not. The Duck Bear is a PUG-farming build, much like LRMs are PUG-farming weapons. It seems that comp teams are already moving on now that they've had their fill of farming pugs and are getting down to the serious business of fighting other competent players.

[Jackal Noble]

Exactly, pug queues are getting back to normal with heavies dominating again, with lights in demand, followed by mediums and then assaults. The kdk3 is not op, it's a great platform, just like the Warhammer, Atlas and Banshee.

Fellow forumbros and sisters please don't let my beloved bears become this:

[Black Ivan]

Sorry to say, but the KDK 3 with UAC10 Ultra is to powerfull. What ever PGI thought about making it like it is

[Jackal Noble]

Granted, 4 Uac10s are strong, but so are 5 lpls. It's like saying Nerf it because it's a capable mech.

Besides I like 3 Uac10s and some junk.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

watched a few comp matches some seem to favor the dakka some more ppfld but overall im still seeing Kodiak's get picked on by mechs with faster projectile velocity and agility. (cough whammy cough)

it can certainly dominate a ridge line or lay the smack down in head on pushes, but it has to be in position with a good team that has a plan and will cover them.

seems like most other assaults, good when the team works with them bad when the get caught out of position or their team cant keep the lights off their backs.

the quad ultra 10's are certainly strong but im also seeing it have the "lrm effect", tons of incidental damage but few kills secured. altho it does look alot more painful than lrm rain the end result is mostly the same, enemies back down and go for cover rather than taking that kind of punishment.

[Baba Yogi]

Op shouldnt whine about the nerf, that mech deserves it, its automatic win for any trade mid range or less, you are not going to outdps kdk-3, you will not be able to aim proper with that cockpit shake and see anything going on in screen, and it will core you before you hide if you are a slow mech. God forbid if he catches you on open field. Unless you are a light, you are dead. On top of all that its extremely agile assault mech, i'd rate it better than gargoyle, you can move faster when it counts and near-instant acceleration is extremely useful for an assault. Also very high hardpoints are also huge for an assault, that was my main problem when i tried playing with assaults(granted im a medium pilot mostly), they take too much damage on range if hardpoints are low, so most of them cant peak efficiently. All that advantage and it has almost no weakness only slightly large CT.

Edit: Just saw in smurfy apparently only SB has masc, its agile just not op agility on top of op dmg i guess.

Edited by Lordhammer, 06 June 2016 - 01:52 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

Op shouldnt whine about the nerf, that mech deserves it, its automatic win for any trade mid range or less, you are not going to outdps kdk-3, you will not be able to aim proper with that cockpit shake and see anything going on in screen, and it will core you before you hide if you are a slow mech. God forbid if he catches you on open field. Unless you are a light, you are dead. On top of all that its extremely agile assault mech, i'd rate it better than gargoyle, you can move faster when it counts and near-instant acceleration is extremely useful for an assault. Also very high hardpoints are also huge for an assault, that was my main problem when i tried playing with assaults(granted im a medium pilot mostly), they take too much damage on range if hardpoints are low, so most of them cant peak efficiently. All that advantage and it has almost no weakness only slightly large CT.

you do realize most quad dakka kodiaks are running an xl360 right? in fact only pure laser vomit or spirit bear can really use the full xl400.

[Mcgral18]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 06 June 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

you do realize most quad dakka kodiaks are running an xl360 right? in fact only pure laser vomit or spirit bear can really use the full xl400.

375-380

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

375-380

still isnt an xl400 but so about 65kph? im just saying he was comparing it to mr gargles which runs 87 kph of which only spirit bear can match for bursts.

and gargles could only dream of packing a kodiaks firepower with its pod space.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 06 June 2016 - 01:53 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

385

[Baba Yogi]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 06 June 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

still isnt an xl400 but so about 65kph? im just saying he was comparing it to mr gargles which runs 87 kph of which only spirit bear can match for bursts.

and gargles could only dream of packing a kodiaks firepower with its pod space.

still no gargoyle has anywhere near that dmg. Direwolves used to be the only one, and they are easy enough to focus down due to low hardpoints + huge torso and slow speed/agility. This guy peaks with all that dps and anything it stares down has to take the damage and hide. No other mech has that sort of battlefield presence. This would have been much more obvious had the queue was 8v8 as it used to be. Thankfully focus fire tends to melt anything, and most people has the sense to shoot KDK first. Still doesnt diminish the fact its op. Watch the streamers/youtube channels if u like, they'll confirm it too.

Edited by Lordhammer, 06 June 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I am a total outlier...

I get fantastic results with quad UAC5, 11 tons ammo, XL350, 4 Lasers for swatting UAVs, and a mark VI targeting computer for that sweet velocity boost...

Basically, it's a Mauldiak.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 06 June 2016 - 02:07 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Best thing Mr. Gargles has going for it is its massive profile that effectively blocks fire for teammates.

No. Stop it. I refuse to believe that the kdk-3 ( I call her Laverne) is getting nerfed. Nope Nada zilch. Nothing to see here folks, just another one of Bishop's dominating threads.
Christ man, how many top threads you have on fp general now? Although in all fairness, this one has like Max 4-5 people soaking up that volume. Ahem... Mischief, Col Wolf, Gyrok, quicksilver, McGral, and Bish. And anyone else I forgot to mention. That and for every one nerfcrier, there are 2-3 that says meh. But seriously it's like you studied at some mech journalist school where they trained you in the hidden art of creating irresistible click bait for all things Mechwarrior, and you graduated top of the class, only to find out it was actually your job and they fired you for being on this forum instead of working. Oh and your wife is leaving. And she's taking the kids, but leaving you with the re-tarded beagle that eats it's own ****. Oh Monday.

Edited by JackalBeast, 06 June 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

still no gargoyle has anywhere near that dmg.

The Gargoyle is also a sub-optimal mech, so why are we using it for a balance discussion?

[Jackal Noble]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 June 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

The Gargoyle is also a sub-optimal mech, so why are we using it for a balance discussion?

Obviously it's a strategy to show how overpowered the Kodiak is. Compare it to sub par clan mechs.
" It goes 89kph, does a 130 point alpha, twists Cent on steroids, and OK OK maybe the CT is barely oversized."
Sounds about right.

The thing is a beast, it's supposed to be. It's a 100 ton mech. The largest class available. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ASSAULT MECH. OH MY GOD WHY AM I USING BIG LETTERS TO EMPHASIZE WHAT I THINK SHOULD BE COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD. WHO DOES THAT.