1017 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

Okay. Well good luck with that Gyrok. If at any time you're curious about what people have said a about the KDK3 there is 26 pages on this thread and 3 other threads on the topic. Also the eponymous reddit post. Take some time, read through, you'll want to have some dismissal or avoidance for a lot of that ready. Also want to read up on what you want to misinterpret or ignore.

I get that you're saying that comp tier teams playing in a challenge for not just supreme bragging rights but many thousands of dollars in prizes are not playing what works best but what's new, because they're all stupid.

When that becomes just too hard to sustain and dedicated comp play starts to show out what's already demonstrated, voiced and predicted you'll probably want a new tact to take. There's always the old horse of "Clans are supposed to be OP". You can also go with "They just don't understand how great the Mauler and Banshee are".

Then again you are the uncontested master of justifying imbalanced Clan mechs, I have no place telling you your business!

Was going on an old post walk about. All this sparing aside I really mean it when I say go look at command center, go page 3, start reading backward.

While you personally have some amazing work in your discussions on why the Clans were balanced at release and some needed buffs, that's not even the point.

Everything PGI said spawned a feedback thread and they responded in it. You can see a discernable, clear difference in attitude from then to now. They were invested, even excited. Now they seem like they're working in a job they hate but that pays the bills.

It's an illuminating experience.

I get that you are using hyperbole to to make it seem as though it is ground crushingly important for EmP and SJR to bring their absolute best options to every match against teams that are 4 divisions below them in any normal competitive league, but PGI chose round robin.

The reality is...SJR could show up with 2 commandos, 2 vindicators, 2 dragons, and 2 awesome pretty babys and still beat "jimbo's commandos" Div D MRBC team.

So, there are legitimately about 10 teams in NA MWOWC bracket that anybody is at all worried about, and about another few hundred teams that mean nothing to anyone with any real chance at winning everything.

Out of the 80 matches people are going to play, if 9-10 of them mean anything, the other matches can drop whatever as long as the players show up with clear minds and focus.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

Okay. Well good luck with that Gyrok. If at any time you're curious about what people have said a about the KDK3 there is 26 pages on this thread and 3 other threads on the topic. Also the eponymous reddit post. Take some time, read through, you'll want to have some dismissal or avoidance for a lot of that ready. Also want to read up on what you want to misinterpret or ignore.

I get that you're saying that comp tier teams playing in a challenge for not just supreme bragging rights but many thousands of dollars in prizes are not playing what works best but what's new, because they're all stupid.

When that becomes just too hard to sustain and dedicated comp play starts to show out what's already demonstrated, voiced and predicted you'll probably want a new tact to take. There's always the old horse of "Clans are supposed to be OP". You can also go with "They just don't understand how great the Mauler and Banshee are".

Then again you are the uncontested master of justifying imbalanced Clan mechs, I have no place telling you your business!

Was going on an old post walk about. All this sparing aside I really mean it when I say go look at command center, go page 3, start reading backward.

While you personally have some amazing work in your discussions on why the Clans were balanced at release and some needed buffs, that's not even the point.

Everything PGI said spawned a feedback thread and they responded in it. You can see a discernable, clear difference in attitude from then to now. They were invested, even excited. Now they seem like they're working in a job they hate but that pays the bills.

It's an illuminating experience.

yes...and since yours and Mcgrals posts make up around 13 pages of that, with Gyrok's replies counting for another 10....

that makes it what... 3 pages of actual discussion, with very few people backing your PoV?

In your owns, seems like facts and rationale are rather low on your agenda....

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

@@Jiggly
I'm just here farming post count and leveling my new deck.

Facts, Facts, Sarcasm, Resonable. I generally save the sarcasm/scorn decks for IS v Clan balance drops but on this thread it's more an "overall game balance" map and not a "Clans are oppressed" map, though some people who don't get good FW strategy try to play it as such.

I don't normally go Facts on the first drop, usually do best leading with Humor or Scorn depending on if it's a good team on the other side or not and if it's the Clan V IS front. However this new map really favors a Facts heavy deck. You just have to watch out for people trying to corner peek with Strawman decks like "you just hate Clans" and "It's not OP for me" stuff. Those may work well in T5-T3 pug threads but not a more competitive thread like this. I'm all but sync dropping with heavy T1 Forum Warriors like McGral and Sjorpha and it's easy to focus fire those down. Honestly Gyrok is a good player just that when you let him call your Forum Warfare drops it gets predictable.

End of the day almost all the best teams are on this side even if they're a bit burned out on the map and more focused on the contest. At least the other team drops a lot so matches are fast, makes leveling my deck easier.

Ironic that the best PvP experience PGI has ever created can be played from my phone.

*shrugs*

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 June 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

yes...and since yours and Mcgrals posts make up around 13 pages of that, with Gyrok's replies counting for another 10....

that makes it what... 3 pages of actual discussion, with very few people backing your PoV?

In your owns, seems like facts and rationale are rather low on your agenda....

I'm at just over one and a quarter page (now 24)

You and SC make 6 pages (64 & 55)

Gyrok just under 2 (34)

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 04 June 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

I'm at just over one and a quarter page (now 24)

You and SC make 6 pages (64 & 55)

Gyrok just under 2 (34)

and the angel of hyperbole skirts over heads............

(why am I not shocked? It's only understood, when one uses it to promote their own agenda, apparently... like how the "entire comp scene" agrees the KDK3 is OP/BAD/NEEDS NERF!).

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

yes...and since yours and Mcgrals posts make up around 13 pages of that, with Gyrok's replies counting for another 10....

i feel marginailized

#triggered #the patriarchy #deplatformed

[MischiefSC]

We're at about 100 matches in. I can find 3 matches that had any assaults that were not KDKs on both sides.

So out of about 400 deployed assault mechs so far I can find about 6 that were not KDKs. It's almost certain there are matches that don't have screenshots on reddit or the forums here, however even if almost every single match with no picture had nobody using KDKs we're seeing a very specific bias in competitive play.

We can throw opinions and hyperbole around all day. Always good for a giggle. However the reality is already playing out pretty clearly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

We're at about 100 matches in. I can find 3 matches that had any assaults that were not KDKs on both sides.

The question is, did they have the biggest impact in all those matches, or did people just take them because of all the smoke being blown about how OP it is? If you look at the top end teams, you'll notice a lot less of them taking Dakka Kodiaks, a lot less (still Kodiaks, but not the variant that has the most complaints).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 June 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[wanderer]

Still following along with Kong (who probably are about as "middle of the road" as it gets, and yeah. The KDK-3's are definitely credit to team, putting up near 800 damage per match on wins and usually driving the targets into cover (where the flankers often end up finishing off the crippled results).

They're 2-2 right now, and the losses were to Lords and 228- who both also used a pair of KDK-3s to good effect, though having more skilled players overall the damage balance isn't as much in favor of the Kodiaks as pretty much ANY member of those teams is going to be killy as all get out regardless of what weight slot they're in. That's why they're tops to begin with.

[Bishop Steiner]

wanderer, on 04 June 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Still following along with Kong (who probably are about as "middle of the road" as it gets, and yeah. The KDK-3's are definitely credit to team, putting up near 800 damage per match on wins and usually driving the targets into cover (where the flankers often end up finishing off the crippled results).

They're 2-2 right now, and the losses were to Lords and 228- who both also used a pair of KDK-3s to good effect, though having more skilled players overall the damage balance isn't as much in favor of the Kodiaks as pretty much ANY member of those teams is going to be killy as all get out regardless of what weight slot they're in. That's why they're tops to begin with.

did you catch if they were all KDK3 DakkaBears?

[wanderer]

From what I'm seeing in the match replays- yes, at least the Kong ones are. Twitch doesn't love my weaker Internet connection, but some time spent watching the qualifiers should get a good feel for builds as spectator mode shows weapon layouts whenever a 'Mech gets highlighted.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

did you catch if they were all KDK3 DakkaBears?

A few 50 PP FLD versions as well (as you'd expect for range plays)

The UAC40 is effective to about 400M, but absolutely terrible against (quirked) poking

See

[Bishop Steiner]

wanderer, on 04 June 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

From what I'm seeing in the match replays- yes, at least the Kong ones are. Twitch doesn't love my weaker Internet connection, but some time spent watching the qualifiers should get a good feel for builds as spectator mode shows weapon layouts whenever a 'Mech gets highlighted.

eh, can't get interested in spectating games...even when I'm down and out with food poisoning with nothing better to do. Would love it if someone had a gallery of end of match screens...wont show loadouts, but will show what percentage are 3s.

Of course...of the 3s, like McGral said... you'll have some PokeBears, too.

[wanderer]

He's actually getting dakka'd at by a few Black Widows there. Same difference, though.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 June 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

The question is, did they have the biggest impact in all those matches, or did people just take them because of all the smoke being blown about how OP it is? If you look at the top end teams, you'll notice a lot less of them taking Dakka Kodiaks, a lot less (still Kodiaks, but not the variant that has the most complaints).

I've been working ~80 hour weeks for a bit lately but most of it has been waiting for reports to spool or being dialed in to meetings that want me there but only need me for like 5 minutes of input.

So I've been watching a lot of matches and comparing them to streams of MRBC matches. RHOD seems to play a lot different but the MWOWC seems more like MRBC.

A lot of team still do 2xKDK3. Most do, by. Good stretch. However I've seen several teams use 1 kdk3 and a SB, saving the SB either for a push or to riposte an enemy push.

I admit, I watched comp play before but wasn't that interested. I start to see where the attraction is now. The good teams really do put some good strategies together. 2 KDK3s is a duplication of role that on most maps has a diminishing rate of return. So they run the SB like a fast Atlas. They set up for the push and the KDK3 is a big part of that.

The KDK3 is a big part of team performance though. If you disagree, name a match that I can watch. I'm not trying to naysay you here but the only reason I see people not run 2x KDK3 is a kdk3 +SB is even better because a push or riposte is the clinch win. Teams that stay in trades too long can lose the advatage to a couple lucky shots. It seems like it all comes down to the right setup and then C-C-C-COMBO! EXECUTION MOVE!

I have not seen a match though where the KDK3s on both sides did not flat out control the flow and position. Most matches seemed to start with trying to kill or neutralize the other teams kdk3s.

That the SB seems to be a better Atlas is worth looking at. It's a Hero mech and so harder to identify the an the ubiquitous KDK3.

I get you feel Assaults should be more powerful overall and in it was part of an overall rebalance I would agree. For right now though, with the balance we have, do you really think the KDK3 (I don't have and as such can't gauge SB) isn't superior to all other assaults overall?

[Bishop Steiner]

wanderer, on 04 June 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

He's actually getting dakka'd at by a few Black Widows there. Same difference, though.

now that's doing the hokey pokey.....

though the BW is actually a lot more effective at return fire than a Dakkabear, since the UACs and AC5s have a lot better velocity. So I would have to imagine the Dread DakkaBear even less effectual in that particular scenario.

*shrugs*

I've always acknowledged in the right environment it's bloody evil. I just feel it's been way artificially inflated by the Leaderboard environment with all the extra Metal on each team and most people not knowing how to counter one yet.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

That the SB seems to be a better Atlas is worth looking at. It's a Hero mech and so harder to identify the an the ubiquitous KDK3.

and here comes the the other part of the 1-2 nerf the KDK combo we've been talking about.... SB is OP now toO!

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

eh, can't get interested in spectating games...even when I'm down and out with food poisoning with nothing better to do. Would love it if someone had a gallery of end of match screens...wont show loadouts, but will show what percentage are 3s.

Of course...of the 3s, like McGral said... you'll have some PokeBears, too.

On phone, can't link it but there is a thread for posting end of round screenshots for matches played off schedule. There's about 40 screenies there and on Reddit of different matches.

I am putting them all in a spreadsheet in my spare time and will put it in a Google Doc when it's done. So far of the about 40 screenshots involving 160 assault mechs I can verify with screenshots there have been 6 total assaults that were not a KDK, only a handful of teams had a KDK3 and a SB. Almost universally it's 4xKDK3 in the match.

I am willing to say it's hard to call this properly representative as the skill variance is wide. I am comfortable predicting however that when we get into finals you're going to see KDK decks a most universally and a couple mediums and heavies specifically set up to out poke the KDKs. Even with that you'll see the KDK heavily represented because its ability to adjust to changes and punish/exploit mistakes is unparalleled. Significantly. People make mistakes in front of TBRs and Whammies and wince but make it. Same with any other assault even. You make a mistake in front of the KDK3 you probably won't get back in to cover. Maybe 1/2 a mech.

It represents more powerfully than anything else in any of the matches I've seen. No question.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

...... and a couple mediums and heavies specifically set up to out poke the KDKs.

*sigh*

Further proof the KDK isn't powerful enough!

Don't you know you should NEVER Poke the Bear?


so if people are getting away with it......

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

and here comes the the other part of the 1-2 nerf the KDK combo we've been talking about.... SB is OP now toO!

Due to range limitations my hope on the SB is that after the hitbox fix it's better suited by structure quirks. I'd be happiest to see the SB play like a faster, slightly more fragile Atlas. That's a role the Clans really need.

The big dream would be the Dire betting rescale, more mobility (range of movement, not quirks) and structure buffs.

[Cy Mitchell]

I have been watching as many matches as I can and yes there are a lot of Kodiak and the majority of them are the 3. Obviously it is a good assault and popular but I do not see it dominating the matches. In three games out of the 10 or so I have personally seen a KOdiak was a major player. In one case, one did close to 1000 damage (I think). It was a wipe game. In another gamea team with no Kodiaks beat a team with two Kodiaks.

Besides the Kodiaks you will see two Warhammers, two Griffins and two Jenner Oxides or two Jenner II-C in the vast majority of games. So the Kodiak is one of the most popular Mechs (probably the only reallt popular Clan Mech) in the Tournament. However, I do not see the Kodiak dominating the matches. If anything it is the Oxides and the Jenner II-C that are the most disruptive force and they rack up scores that rival or surpass most the other Mechs.

Admittedly, watching ten matches is a small sample size but simply looking at an entry sheet and a few result sheets is also not a great indication of a Mech being too strong. If it was, then all the Mechs that are being used on most the teams would fall in the same category.

I still believe that all the quirks should be removed from all the Mechs with the re-scale and then some re-applied sparingly.