1017 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

As I've already done it repeatedly why don't you ask Quicksilver and Gas Guzzler what they think is reasonable for the KDK3. While I don't speak for anyone but myself I can say that both have stated prior in this thread and others that removing the KDK3 mobility quirks and fixing the hitboxes was a good start.

So please point me to the comp tier players who haven't said that's a good idea.

You keep going back to other Clan mech balance issues and trying to shift the focus to other thinks is irrelevant.

KDK3 is the best loadout on the Dire in over the shoulder mounts on the most maneuverable assault in the game. It doesn't need extra quirks.

Part of it may be the fact that it is apparently absolutely, hair-on-fire CRUCIAL that the KDK-3 get nerfhammered into oblivion RIGHT THE HELL NOW to prevent OP abuse in the quick queue...but nobody really seems to give a single fat flying frogwaffle for the fact that the Gargoyle has been awful since it released, the Executioner is largely bad with a few very situational edges due entirely and solely to its M.A.S.C., the Warhawk needs a remodel/rescale more than any other 'Mech in the game outside the Nova, and the Dire Whale has been bad ever since the Sphere were touched by Quirk Jesus/everyone figured out that they die to people with feet and the wherewithal to use them,

Slagging the one Clan assault chassis that competes remotely well with Sphere GigAssaults is a blazing rush-rush DoItNAOW priority...but fixing the rest of the mediocre to outright putrid Clan assault category is somewhere down on the list behind "Selectable faction-appropriate pilot models" in terms of priority.

Is that not perhaps just a little bit screwed up?

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 June 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Fixing the hitboxes is a bit of a catch-22 since if the side torsos are expanded anymore, Gauss rifles will be a no go on it, and they can be problematic already with the Goose/ERPPC build which is one of the strongest long range builds atm (but is situational still, just like the Mauler). I still don't see it as OP as other do, but simply as powerful as an assault probably should be.

When it gets nerfed though (notice I didn't say if), I can only hope it is minor, because it is still one of the two Kodiaks actually worth bothering with, if it wasn't for the MASC on the SB or the KDK-3, the Kodiak would've been released with much less fanfare and most likely shrugged off in place of the prior meta assaults.

I'm always cagey about PGI's hitbox fixes.

As I've said before I'm all for structure quirks as needed. On a ton of mechs, not just this instance.

As to "as powerful as an assault should be", people have different views on ttk. The question is, relative to other assaults as they are now, does it need the quirks it has to be competitive.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 02 June 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Part of it may be the fact that it is apparently absolutely, hair-on-fire CRUCIAL that the KDK-3 get nerfhammered into oblivion RIGHT THE HELL NOW to prevent OP abuse in the quick queue...but nobody really seems to give a single fat flying frogwaffle for the fact that the Gargoyle has been awful since it released, the Executioner is largely bad with a few very situational edges due entirely and solely to its M.A.S.C., the Warhawk needs a remodel/rescale more than any other 'Mech in the game outside the Nova, and the Dire Whale has been bad ever since the Sphere were touched by Quirk Jesus/everyone figured out that they die to people with feet and the wherewithal to use them,

Slagging the one Clan assault chassis that competes remotely well with Sphere GigAssaults is a blazing rush-rush DoItNAOW priority...but fixing the rest of the mediocre to outright putrid Clan assault category is somewhere down on the list behind "Selectable faction-appropriate pilot models" in terms of priority.

Is that not perhaps just a little bit screwed up?

The longer you wait to fix an OP mech the more stupid people get.

Clanners got 2 years of op as **** Clan mechs so when they finally got balanced half of them LEFT. In. Huff, while crying.

If Clan mechs had been balanced 2 years ago we would absolutely have more players today.

The Dragon has needed fixed longer than the Gargoyle has. The Commando too.
I get the point though. Broke is broke however.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

As to "as powerful as an assault should be", people have different views on ttk. The question is, relative to other assaults as they are now, does it need the quirks it has to be competitive.

I'm ok with testing it I suppose, but I'd be willing to bet without the mobility quirks it becomes very vulnerable to laser puke assaults and any other dakka mechs (maybe overly so, which is my main worry).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 June 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[1453 R]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

The longer you wait to fix an OP mech the more stupid people get.

Clanners got 2 years of op as **** Clan mechs so when they finally got balanced half of them LEFT. In. Huff, while crying.

If Clan mechs had been balanced 2 years ago we would absolutely have more players today.

The Dragon has needed fixed longer than the Gargoyle has. The Commando too.
I get the point though. Broke is broke however.

The Dragon does indeed need help. Was my first 'Mech back in the day, still own the DRG-1N that was my very first personal machine. The Commando needs something, too.

Those machines exist in places where Thunderbolts, Black Knights, Grasshoppers, Firestarters, and Oxides live, though. The KDK-3 is hogging so much spotlight recently because it is the only Clan assault, with the partial exception of the Spirit Bear, that does the job one would expect a Clan assault to do.

Trust me, I know about Clan balance concerns. It boggles me to this day that the cERML is still a 7-damage weapon. Even when the Sphere gets its T2 stuff and starts rolling out nonsense like MRMs and RACs, the cERML will be overdone. I'm perfectly aware that everyone hates the cXL and feels like Clan 'Mechs should die to shoulder blowout like God intended - or, conversely, that iXLs should survive a shoulder blowout like the Devil does.

As much as I really do hate to sound like Gyrok, though...the Clan side is suffering some pretty severe backlash from those two years of Crezzeh OP everyone keeps going on about. Even the worst underperforming Clan machines are almost entirely ignored by the Quirk Gods, whilst things like 150 structure, KDK-level agility quirks, and six weapon modules' worth of weapon buffs are ladled out to Fatlasses damn near on a whim. 20% is considered low for a Sphere-side quirk, while 5% is cause for celebration on the Clan side.

I get that Clan guns are still, on the whole and disregarding quirks, more efficient/effective than Sphere guns, due almost entirely to weight/crit issues. The margin between the two gets slimmer and slimmer every time Piranha releases a patch, however, and is furthermore bridged and more than bridged in several cases by outright stupidiculous Sphere quirks. Clan 'superiority' in terms of damage doesn't really exist anymore - outside the specific cases of the medium-class lasers and the cLPL, Clan armaments have been matched and surpassed by Sphere quirked guns in terms of raw anger directed downrange. The only real edge the Clans have is in boating potential via lighter, smaller weaponry, which is often hindered by bad Omni-style hardpoint counts/distribution. In the few cases where boating is not particularly hindered by crappy Omnipod configurations, issues have emerged.

I would argue that these lingering issues need to be finally, fully resolved - knock down Clan medium-class lasers, knock the cLPL, redo Ultra mechanics so Clan big-bore Ultras are not overwhelming. Once that's done? FLING THE QUIRK SYSTEM INTO THE &&$^%&*!& SUN. Nobody likes it. Nobody wants it. It's egregious power creep that obsoletes far too many older 'Mechs, more than New Hawtness Hardpoints ever did, it's incredibly volatile and unstable, and Piranha never uses it to do what a quirk system is supposed to be for and highlight cool lore fluff or highlight/strengthen differences between variants.

Until that happens, though? Maybe it'd be an idea to let sad bad Clan machines that can't keep up with the mecha-Joneses dip a toe into the quirk bag from time to time? And perhaps it'd be humane to let the one assault 'Mech we've gotten that somehow manages to dodge the pre-release Nerfination all Clan-side machines are destined for stay, at the very least, competitive?

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 June 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

I'm ok with testing it I suppose, but I'd be willing to bet without the mobility quirks it becomes very vulnerable to laser puke assaults and any other dakka mechs (maybe overly so, which is my main worry).

In which case it needs structure buffs. Totally good with that. I would say it is still going to be more durable then the Banshee, which has the same movement profile and agility but IS xl and a smidge less armor.

Problem with mobility buffs on an already assault is it magnifies an existing imbalance. At this point it's got boated UAC10s in question. The ability to effectively deploy a weapon is stronger than the direct firepower alone. It's why the Boom jag ****** AC20s and the 4xppc Stalker ****** ppcs. Kdk3 does that with UAC10s. I would much rather the KDK3 gets mobility brought in to line with every other assault so its ability to use its weapons is in scale so it doesn't make the weapon look op.

[LordKnightFandragon]

1453 R, on 02 June 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Part of it may be the fact that it is apparently absolutely, hair-on-fire CRUCIAL that the KDK-3 get nerfhammered into oblivion RIGHT THE HELL NOW to prevent OP abuse in the quick queue...but nobody really seems to give a single fat flying frogwaffle for the fact that the Gargoyle has been awful since it released, the Executioner is largely bad with a few very situational edges due entirely and solely to its M.A.S.C., the Warhawk needs a remodel/rescale more than any other 'Mech in the game outside the Nova, and the Dire Whale has been bad ever since the Sphere were touched by Quirk Jesus/everyone figured out that they die to people with feet and the wherewithal to use them,

Yeah, both the 'Hawk and the Whale need a rescale.

*Edit* Ive been kinda looking at the Warhawk, kinda seeing things that could honestly go, since that mech seems to be artificially wider and taller due to dangly bits and random added portions on the model. Also, the arms need to be stubbier and higher up so we can see the guns through the sides of the cockpit, just like in Mechwarrior 2. it would allow the mech to abuse terrain a little better as well. Honestly, the Whale would be in the same boat, with the guns sitting higher up then they are now. Those 2 mechs are actually not knuckle draggers like we have now...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 02 June 2016 - 03:19 PM.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

In which case it needs structure buffs. Totally good with that. I would say it is still going to be more durable then the Banshee, which has the same movement profile and agility but IS xl and a smidge less armor.

Problem with mobility buffs on an already assault is it magnifies an existing imbalance. At this point it's got boated UAC10s in question. The ability to effectively deploy a weapon is stronger than the direct firepower alone. It's why the Boom jag ****** AC20s and the 4xppc Stalker ****** ppcs. Kdk3 does that with UAC10s. I would much rather the KDK3 gets mobility brought in to line with every other assault so its ability to use its weapons is in scale so it doesn't make the weapon look op.

Gman, in his initial post about the KDK on NGNG, actually argues most assaults need more agility. I agree with that completely.

As for the banshee, personally, 5 LPLs is a huge reason that mech is absurdly strong. When it can peek at 500m and hit you for ~50 damage in a total of a second (half second if required, and on low heat) and return to cover by the time you have turned, aimed and fired in a dakka bear is potentially nasty. Yeah, it will not get a second "free trade", but it will certainly have all the advantage it needs to keep winning trades at 50 damage to 12-25 damage. If you really wanted to be advantageous in a wubshee, you could even trade 33 damage for zero damage, because the poke and fire LPLs would be done burning by the time you got rounds on target.

There are lots of people that just do not see the "uber OPness" that this mech supposedly possesses. Is it a good assault mech? Certainly, I have not found anyone disputing that...but is it OP? No.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Gyrok, on 02 June 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Gman, in his initial post about the KDK on NGNG, actually argues most assaults need more agility. I agree with that completely.

As for the banshee, personally, 5 LPLs is a huge reason that mech is absurdly strong. When it can peek at 500m and hit you for ~50 damage in a total of a second (half second if required, and on low heat) and return to cover by the time you have turned, aimed and fired in a dakka bear is potentially nasty. Yeah, it will not get a second "free trade", but it will certainly have all the advantage it needs to keep winning trades at 50 damage to 12-25 damage. If you really wanted to be advantageous in a wubshee, you could even trade 33 damage for zero damage, because the poke and fire LPLs would be done burning by the time you got rounds on target.

There are lots of people that just do not see the "uber OPness" that this mech supposedly possesses. Is it a good assault mech? Certainly, I have not found anyone disputing that...but is it OP? No.

see this is what it comes down to. ya the kodiak 3 is a strong mech for sure no one is arguing that, but the calls for its nerfs came almost immediately yet other mechs that have clearly been out of line for awhile are just fine? where is the crusade to have quirks truly reigned in? and redone properly?

this is why people get it in their heads that "clans aren't allowed nice things", there are plenty of examples of IS mechs that were clearly out of line like Huggins, BK, X-5, LL stalkers est, that weren't fixed for months. there was even a nice long period where IS lasers (via quirks) where simply straight up better, better range, duration and damage per tick. but the moment a single seemingly "op" clan mech hits the field the dirty peasants rallied for a good old fashioned witch burning.

so far im really only seeing 2 camps claiming its OP, scrubs that also happen to blame their team everytime they die, and the self proclaimed uber elite, because they care so much about us poor pugs in the QP que. maybe if they worded it diffferently we would be more responsive but it sure as hell sounds alot like "we have to pass this bill so you can find out whats in it" kinda mentality.

but other then already good pilots like mcgral and the like, im not really seeing it. ya i was averaging around 4-6 kills with it myself but with 800-1100 damage (on the high end) on good games where i didn't get mauled early on for simply being discovered in a heretical mech, but those massive scores that twinky and mcgral got were only because of all of the 100 tonners during the event which is not the case now and cannot be easily replicated. a point of reason that has simply been ignored even though it is the exact reason twinky got that high score and even twinky couldn't get that score now.

others have pointed out several times other mechs that are clearly on the level of the kodiak 3, or will best it just like the kodiak 3 will in its range bracket/element, but our calls of reason have fallen on deaf ears. not one good reason has been given as to why our legitimate concerns have been brushed aside other then "cus we know best". but mostly just they have just been straight up ignored which is simply bad form.

IE the people calling for nerfs say we should just "listen and believe" without being willing to have an honest debate as to the merits of their claims.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 02 June 2016 - 05:40 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I've said elsewhere and will say again I think the IS LPL needs the burn time increased and tthe CERLL needs its burn time reduced.

The banshee is powerful but only in a poking context. Inot a 1v1 the kdk3 is generally going to win. Every solution to the KDK starts with "focus it down first" with multiple mechs. That's not a valid balance mechanic.

At the risk of some blasphemy I don't consider gman the arbitrator on game balance. I try to read up on multiple positions from people at the comp level. I'm cautious about solutions involving more mobility for assaults as it puts a lot of downward pressure on heavie - you're all but guaranteed to be starting a power creep cycle as people find their heavies now can't compete and so need buffs, etc.

There is a world of difference between being uber op (which nobody here is saying) and being out of scope for existing assault balance. You want to argue clan/IS balance or mech weight class balancing or whatever that's fine for a other topic. We would probably agree on most of it.

The KDK3 however has the strongest loadout with the highest mounts on the most maneuverable mech. Its only negative is bad hitboxes, which are being fixed.

The loadout I cringe to want to tweak because you effect tons of mechs. The hitboxes need fixed because intentional bad mech design is bad game design. That leaves mobility. Not saying it needs to be bad, just not inherently better than the absolute best assaults and most heavies.

Also every mech needs balanced tor QP. I'll be the first to say QP is a **** environment in many ways but it's the majority content. I get that at a comp level the ability to recognize and focus down a threat mitigates almost any balance issue that doesn't involve making a mech not have to show itself (BJ 1X with uber quirks for a while being an example) but that's not a true balance factor.

If the KDK3 ends up with ST structure quirks that's cool. It should be T1 top competitor. However mobility is the wrong leg to balance an assault with that firepower UP on as it removes the main factor that balances assaults vs all other classes.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

I've said elsewhere and will say again I think the IS LPL needs the burn time increased and tthe CERLL needs its burn time reduced.

The banshee is powerful but only in a poking context. Inot a 1v1 the kdk3 is generally going to win. Every solution to the KDK starts with "focus it down first" with multiple mechs. That's not a valid balance mechanic.

At the risk of some blasphemy I don't consider gman the arbitrator on game balance. I try to read up on multiple positions from people at the comp level. I'm cautious about solutions involving more mobility for assaults as it puts a lot of downward pressure on heavie - you're all but guaranteed to be starting a power creep cycle as people find their heavies now can't compete and so need buffs, etc.

There is a world of difference between being uber op (which nobody here is saying) and being out of scope for existing assault balance. You want to argue clan/IS balance or mech weight class balancing or whatever that's fine for a other topic. We would probably agree on most of it.

The KDK3 however has the strongest loadout with the highest mounts on the most maneuverable mech. Its only negative is bad hitboxes, which are being fixed.

The loadout I cringe to want to tweak because you effect tons of mechs. The hitboxes need fixed because intentional bad mech design is bad game design. That leaves mobility. Not saying it needs to be bad, just not inherently better than the absolute best assaults and most heavies.

Also every mech needs balanced tor QP. I'll be the first to say QP is a **** environment in many ways but it's the majority content. I get that at a comp level the ability to recognize and focus down a threat mitigates almost any balance issue that doesn't involve making a mech not have to show itself (BJ 1X with uber quirks for a while being an example) but that's not a true balance factor.

If the KDK3 ends up with ST structure quirks that's cool. It should be T1 top competitor. However mobility is the wrong leg to balance an assault with that firepower UP on as it removes the main factor that balances assaults vs all other classes.

again i say we have more pertinent things to qq about than the kodiak 3, like balance in general. and by your same reasoning i don't see why the banshee shouldn't be nerfed as well, what business does it have with those high mounts and nearly 500m effective range with LPL? how is that not extremely OP to be able to keep vomiting out ridiculous alphas with those over the shoulder mounts with sub 1 second burn durations (clans could only dream of such a boon) and not even have to worry about ammo? on top of IS agility and durability quirks?

if it takes this level of quirkage for the IS to "compete" then i would say the problem lies in the weapons/tech and the way quirks are being used, not 100 ton clan mechs that come stock with XL400's.

and i think PGI hit the nail right on the ******* head with the kodiak 3 because this game needs it. a truly fearsome and proper clan assault that you best THINK how to engage before you just try to ridge hump or face tank it lest you face your doom. Its not a chew toy (even tho it actually still is a chew toy assault) that you can just milk damage from with your quirked to **** broken as **** mech.

see i understand, its mounts are too high, the quad ultra 10's too good, the speed and profile most ridiculous (not really but w/e). but see i also understand that the level of nerfs that PGI uses to deal with "op" mechs would render the Kodiak effectively neutered just like the victor, it would be no different here. even if you only want a minor nerf thats not how PGI looks at it.

and then once again the clans will literally have 0 assault mechs worth serious consideration. because its called being a realist. you may say you only want this or that, but thats not how PGI works

[MischiefSC]

Again, a lot of flash out incorrect stuff.

I realize you don't seem to read what's posted in the thread but for the 4th time so far what's being ddiscussed is just this -

Remove quirks From kdk3. Just kdk3. Justremove quirks.

Fix hitboxes to help it spread famage.

Add structure quirks as needed for under performers to help keep the KDK a good mech and the kdk3 and SB as T1 top condenders.

Nobody except you guys are talking about making the KDK like the Victor or such absurd comparisons.

The KDK3 is measurably better overall than the 3M. The 3M is near the upper edge of balance but at least has the vulnerability of IS XL an is very hot compared to the KDK3 while having lower burst and dps. I also agree that LPLs need a longer burn time.

Again. All of which is trying to dance around the reality that the KDK3 is out of balance for the mechs that were already on the edge of balanced. Saying that be because this one is 20% over and need brought back to 100%, the ones that are at 99-101% need dialed back to 79-81% is just trying to push everything else down to stay OP.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

mischief you are literally using one reddit post from a very good player as the basis for your whole argument. by definition what your saying does not apply to 99% of players and is overblown from the get go. if good players can post high scores with a good mech then so be it its called a meritocracy.

that "op" in the pug que you guys keep talking about, not seeing it, i mean really im not. i do well in my kodiak 3's but not really any better than i do with other "good mechs", this is a case of hysteria on your part because what you claimed was the problem "being to op for the pub que" is simply not happening.

which means you were wrong, twinky was wrong alright. you are on a one man crusade for whatever reason but the facts are not playing out in your favor, im not seeing kodiak 3's get 1500+ damage every match, im seeing sporadic 1000+ damage 4+ kills sure but its not every game and im still seeing kodiak 3's die just like any other mech.

and you are acting like ultra 10's are amazing wunder weapons, the velocity is crap, its not like you can really use them at 500-600m effectively beyond just splattering damage around and they most certainly aren't comparable to pinpoint. but facts just escape you.

you refuse to accept legitimate arguments, refuse to recognize that PGI does not deal in light handed nerfs. you are playing with fire and people have been trying to warn you about this. you also refuse to acknowledge that one player should not have the final word on game balance, twinky, gman i dont care who it is no one person knows best i dont care how good they are and you should really stop parrotting others opinions, take the kodiak 3 out onto the feild yourself and find out for yourself how "op" it really is.

at least mcgral tried to show some games to demonstrate his point, you just keep parroting what others have said.

really mischief if its so op you go and use it in the pug que, show me how broken it is yourself i challenge you to prove your claims, if its really so "op" it shouldn't be hard for you to gather evidence from a bunch of consecutive games that shows so.

until then your just being longwinded and you really do sound (no matter how rational you are trying to be) like the plebs that cry for nerfs because "i died to it thus it must be OP"

also consider, why the **** does it take the perfect storm of dakka, speed and high mounts to make even 1 clan assault worth its weight? that to me is of far far far higher concern than the possibility that good players can leverage a good mechs strengths to make it look OP.

i withheld judgement on the clans until i could get my hands on them myself and you should too.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 02 June 2016 - 08:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

No, I'm referencing what every comp player number reddit and here has said.

I'm not going to make it about my anecdotal experience because then you're just going to argue my anecdotal experience. I will just say that if the KDK3 is actually balanced then I have become a significantly better player recently. If my performance in the KDK was even mediocre I would probably be asking a lot more questions of people like Quicksilver rather than actively arguing the point.

Quicksilver is probably the most lenient person on it and still says removing quirks is viable. I don't want to get into a he said she said so, again, why don't you read this thread, the 3 others like it and the reddit post.

This isn't about your stats or mine or McGral. It's saying in the hands of competitive players how does it handle relative to other assaults. That's been answered.

Debates on "how good should assaults be" and "IS vs Clan balance" and "other Mechs that need buffs" are unrelated to this. I know you want to drag this into other topics because you've got no basis for an argument here - it's, you, Gyrok and Roadkill saying it's totally fine and pretty much every comp tier players and several other people saying for QP at the very least it's op and needs, to start, its quirks removed.

Your arguments so far have largely consisted of falsely saying people want it to be like the Victor or that it has anything to do with IS vs Clan balance and other total strawman BS. Everyone else has pointed to top tier performance and specific data to explain why.

As such this isn't a hard topic to make clear observations on.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

No, I'm referencing what every comp player number reddit and here has said.

That is not what Quicksilver is saying...how is that every comp player? There are many more on reddit that think it is not OP as well, the opinions are a pretty mixed bag, honestly.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

No, I'm referencing what every comp player number reddit and here has said.

- did these players ask you to be their herald? it didn't look like it, so i would say no your just being a troll.


- how do you not understand that arguments from elitism are a logical fallacy? you keep saying player x y and z said so and they are good players, but that has nothing to do with any bias they may or may not have and says nothing about the merits of their arguments, again you just keep parroting their opinions but refuse to actually prove your point one way or the other, trying to drag the issue down into semantics instead of hard evidence.


- only seein mcgral like your posts, and practically every thrid party that has chimed in on your posts has disagreed with you. i would say your the one on the island.

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

I'm not going to make it about my anecdotal experience because then you're just going to argue my anecdotal experience. I will just say that if the KDK3 is actually balanced then I have become a significantly better player recently. If my performance in the KDK was even mediocre I would probably be asking a lot more questions of people like Quicksilver rather than actively arguing the point.

- personal performance does matter because you can compare it to other mechs you play. and as an average of all the mechs you play, you can see the outliers and spot mechs that are potentially OP. unless your saying that twinkys performance matters but the average joes doesn't, both should show a marked improvement in performance in an OP mech vs a plain jane mech..


- how would you posit that one evaluate the performance of a mech other then real life performance? i think its just that even if you did take a kodiak 3 out you would get your *** pasted to the wall, i think your salty that the clans have a good mech and you cant compete.

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

Quicksilver is probably the most lenient person on it and still says removing quirks is viable. I don't want to get into a he said she said so, again, why don't you read this thread, the 3 others like it and the reddit post.

- i have read what alot of people had to say and i disagree with some, agree with others, i think the quirks should stay and the same quirks should be applied to the kodiak 1,5 as well. i think other clan assaults should be brought up close to the level of kodiaks as well so they aren't abjectly useless.

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

This isn't about your stats or mine or McGral. It's saying in the hands of competitive players how does it handle relative to other assaults. That's been answered.

- good for you, you want a cookie? if good players do well with good mechs again, that's life and its a good thing. i don't see any need to nerf a mech just because some players play it better than others. or are you advocating for equality of outcome over equality of opportunity? i personally am against this whole notion that mechs should be so skill capped that even the best players can do nothing to change the tide of battle.

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

Debates on "how good should assaults be" and "IS vs Clan balance" and "other Mechs that need buffs" are unrelated to this. I know you want to drag this into other topics because you've got no basis for an argument here - it's, you, Gyrok and Roadkill saying it's totally fine and pretty much every comp tier players and several other people saying for QP at the very least it's op and needs, to start, its quirks removed.

- overall IS vs Clan ballance does matter and is relevent to this discussion, currently there is no other clan assault other than the kodiak thats really worth bringing into FW, what u no battletech? heretic!

- again, not seeing any QQ directed at kodiaks in the chat anymore the 3 or not, i didn't even get a response when i asked "is the kodiak 3 OP or not?". not seeing players everywhere ditch their other assaults to play kodiak 3's exclusively myself included. your wrong mischief plain and simple. there is no wide spread call to nerf kodiaks, the initial effect has passed and pilots have adapted

- your the one on a one man crusade even if the other compys agree with you, they arent trying to convnince everyone else that its OP probably because they realize like most rational people that if its really OP people will realize it naturally and say so.

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

Your arguments so far have largely consisted of falsely saying people want it to be like the Victor or that it has anything to do with IS vs Clan balance and other total strawman BS. Everyone else has pointed to top tier performance and specific data to explain why.

- quoting precedent is exactly that quoting precedent. pgi is not known for light handed nerfs, and the victor is living (or dead) proof of this.

- do not put words in my mouth i have never said "your arguments so far have largely consisted of falsely saying people want it to be like the Victor" anything to this degree, i cited the victor as an example of what happens when people cry "ITS OP PGI PLX NERF" because thats exactly what happened, and now i have 3 useless stripped assaults that i never once poptarted with (i used my HM for that ). forgive me if im salty about the whole affair.

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

As such this isn't a hard topic to make clear observations on.

- i give you an objective test to prove your hypothesis, if a mech is OP in the hands of any half decent player it should post questionably high results period. you refuse to put the meat to the metal and prove your point constantly saying "x y and z said this so it must be true" your full of **** and you know it.

- put up or shut up, prove your point with facts and not conjecture im not seeing kodiak 3's being used exclusively, im not seeing kodiak 3's out performing other assaults by large margins and i am most not certainly seeing the kodiak 3 breaking the pub que.and im not seeing comp players abuse the kodiak 3 in que either.

- you know how you can tell if a mech is op? i point you to the pre nerf blackjack and how it was used almost exclusively.

twinky was wrong, your wrong, alright? deal with it. its not OP, a damn good mech **** ya, but OP? not by a long shot.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 02 June 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

The KDK-3 seems to be a popular choice in competitive play right now.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 02 June 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

That is not what Quicksilver is saying...how is that every comp player? There are many more on reddit that think it is not OP as well, the opinions are a pretty mixed bag, honestly.

I tell you what. If I do the same thing with Quicksilver that I did with PGI saying they didn't want 10v12 ever and why, will you admit you're wrong? Or just gloss over it?

I'm not trying to herald for anyone. Just pointing out existing data. There's no reason for them to constantly argue with you guys as you're pretty invested in not getting it. What an absolute waste of their time with the event going on. I'm one of the few people who really doesn't mind spending time arguing with you guys and I know it's largely a waste of time but I'm at work most the time anymore and it keeps me occupied.

Quicksilver, like most the comp players, keeps a very balanced view on commenting on balance issues. You're mistaking that for not being in favor of quirks.

I really, really hate to quote other people because the last thing I want to do is waste someone elses time by dragging them into this conversation but you guys keep making it perfectly crystal clear you haven't actually read anything anyone else says in this topic.

Page 10 of this thread, post #185.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Honestly, if there are two things that should be done, it is this:

• Remove all quirks.
  
• If the specific build is still too strong, apply higher ghost heat to UAC10s because the reason it was never strong on the Whale was because it never had the speed to get within range consistently (and they weren't high mounted, but that is not the biggest strength of the 4 UAC10 Kodiak).

It's really hard not to get frustrated at you guys because you keep completely ignoring stuff said not just on this topic elsewhere (but being discussed here) but actual things people are saying in this thread.

[MischiefSC]

Addendum

I'm quoting Quicksilver out of respect for an argument he and I had about the BJ 1X. When it was over-quirked prior (remember the 3LPL BJ 1X?) I didn't see a problem with it. So I argued against nerfing it because for me it performed good but not spectacular and I saw other people using it and it was okay but not amazing. Quicksilver was persistent in saying it was OP and imbalanced.

So after a bit I realized I was debating something with someone who, by dint of their performance, understood the game better than me so I checked my ego, re-read what he posted about exactly what happened that impacted balance and put that to the test.

He was right. The problem was that I wasn't poking with the BJ as I should and was playing it more for sustained damage, often taking a couple shots in a row (cooldown was so quick it felt easy and tempting to just pop off another one and then twist away to cool). Instead I focused on winning trades, exploiting that short burn and twisting off.

It took me like 6 games to get it right. Not even. At that point it was like being the raised middle finger of god. Almost doubled my KDR match over match and yeah. It was clearly balance breaking; I was doing a good 99 points of damage to single locations (shot after shot after shot) while only receiving 1/2 a laser burn in return and much of that twisted off to other locations while my targets were rarely able to twist away any of the damage I did. It was like 3 PPCs with hitscan speed and manageable heat.

So I changed my position on it and picked up some habits for play that made me better at the game.

Mcgral is not getting his scores by magic. They're not happening because he has the uber hax. There's nothing he's doing anyone else can't do. It's not that he's playing in T5. He's just getting the use out of the mech that it's capable of. If you're not seeing similar performance the problem is you, how you play and your perceptions. While I'm not getting anything like he is for stats I would say my Kodiak performance over 50 matches is significantly above what I can do with a 5 LPL WubShee over 50 matches. While the WubShee is great the KDK3 is just more flexible; I can either sustain DPS for almost no heat on exposed targets or I can go for the nuclear option and puke up 140-150 pts on someone before they do 60 or 70 to me, regardless of the mech. Can do that at range or up close, brawling or sniping. It's even passable at trades if you're being sure to shoot first.

Also, for ***** sake people read the thread. We've been debating this for 26 pages here. When I'm repeating and quoting things that already got said *in this same thread* the problem is you're not paying attention.

[Chuck Jager]

So we now have a really good assault mech that works in pugs competitive and FW. Where is the issue?