1017 replies to this topic

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Chuck Jager, on 02 June 2016 - 11:00 PM, said:

So we now have a really good assault mech that works in pugs competitive and FW. Where is the issue?

the evil compies are gonna infest the pug que and farm us all.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 02 June 2016 - 11:15 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Holy cow, more than 520 replies in about 10.5 days. Is this thread OP or what?!

I hear some of the top competitive posters have hit reply count values approaching 10 posts per day! And others have stopped posting in other threads to focus their QQ exclusively on this one

Clearly, the nerf the Kodiak thread needs to be nerfed for the sake of discussion board balance.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 03 June 2016 - 12:35 AM.

[p0rtal00]

NO.
just no, there are big mechs in the game that should deal out massive amounts of damage.
i' m light pilot and if i run into an assault i should risk the quick death i deserve for being dumb.
hey it happens, i can be dumb but don't nerf a mech for my wrong decisions.

[Sjorpha]

1453 R, on 02 June 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Part of it may be the fact that it is apparently absolutely, hair-on-fire CRUCIAL that the KDK-3 get nerfhammered into oblivion RIGHT THE HELL NOW to prevent OP abuse in the quick queue...but nobody really seems to give a single fat flying frogwaffle for the fact that the Gargoyle has been awful since it released, the Executioner is largely bad with a few very situational edges due entirely and solely to its M.A.S.C., the Warhawk needs a remodel/rescale more than any other 'Mech in the game outside the Nova, and the Dire Whale has been bad ever since the Sphere were touched by Quirk Jesus/everyone figured out that they die to people with feet and the wherewithal to use them,

Slagging the one Clan assault chassis that competes remotely well with Sphere GigAssaults is a blazing rush-rush DoItNAOW priority...but fixing the rest of the mediocre to outright putrid Clan assault category is somewhere down on the list behind "Selectable faction-appropriate pilot models" in terms of priority.

Is that not perhaps just a little bit screwed up?

Actually, overpowered moves/pieces are a much bigger balance issue in games than underpowered ones.

Overpowered things actually break the game, underpowered things are a problem too because it creates redundant filler content that nobody uses. Look at magic for example, where most cards are useless. That is a design problem but it's still a good game, overpowered cards in the other hand are a huge problem that must be addressed quickly not to harm the company scene.

That is separate from the discussion about whether the 3 is actually op or not. I agree that the underpowered mechs are a problem because it would be fun seeing more gargoyles, awesomes, commandos, executioners and kit foxes etc.

When it comes to the Kodiak 3 I say what most people seem to say: Just remove the quirks and fix the hitboxes. I can't even tell if that would add up to a net nerf or buff since a good hitbox fix would be pretty huge for durability, but it would be a lot more elegant and well designed that way.

There's no actual rush though. Since the tournament client is locked in with both the quirks and the messed up hitboxes, we might as well wait for those results and base the changes on that after it's over.

Edited by Sjorpha, 03 June 2016 - 03:20 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

I'm quoting Quicksilver out of respect for an argument he and I had about the BJ 1X. When it was over-quirked prior (remember the 3LPL BJ 1X?) I didn't see a problem with it.

RIP pre-rebalance BJ-1X, I will miss you. That was probably the most balanced/interesting iteration of the BJ-1X.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 June 2016 - 06:49 AM.

[cazidin]

Am I the only one who sees the irony? This thread is now the only one still active or that I've seen in the last few days that still wants to see the KDK-3 nerfed and many of us don't want that.

[LordKnightFandragon]

cazidin, on 03 June 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony? This thread is now the only one still active or that I've seen in the last few days that still wants to see the KDK-3 nerfed and many of us don't want that.

Its Clan, its good, NERF IT!!!!! Nerf it hard and nerf it nao!!!!

[1453 R]

Sjorpha, on 03 June 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

Actually, overpowered moves/pieces are a much bigger balance issue in games than underpowered ones.

Overpowered things actually break the game, underpowered things are a problem too because it creates redundant filler content that nobody uses. Look at magic for example, where most cards are useless. That is a design problem but it's still a good game, overpowered cards in the other hand are a huge problem that must be addressed quickly not to harm the company scene.

That is separate from the discussion about whether the 3 is actually op or not. I agree that the underpowered mechs are a problem because it would be fun seeing more gargoyles, awesomes, commandos, executioners and kit foxes etc.

When it comes to the Kodiak 3 I say what most people seem to say: Just remove the quirks and fix the hitboxes. I can't even tell if that would add up to a net nerf or buff since a good hitbox fix would be pretty huge for durability, but it would be a lot more elegant and well designed that way.

There's no actual rush though. Since the tournament client is locked in with both the quirks and the messed up hitboxes, we might as well wait for those results and base the changes on that after it's over.

I can understand that. The issue comes in when a certain toolset - Clan machines in this case, or a particular color in the Magic example - has no useful tools of a certain type - assault 'Mechs, or let's say creature removal since every color in Magic has some sort of removal, or need for removal. That toolset then gets a tool of that type which is arguably overpowered, and people who were used to being able to disregard those particular tools from that particular toolset are caught off guard and begin to pitch a remarkably large fit. Not with the intent of 'dialing back' the tool to the point where it is roughly equivalent to other good tools of its type, but with the intent of 'dialing it back' to the point where it is roughly equivalent with other tools of its type already existent within its given toolset (i.e. nerfhammer buttsmash the KDK-3 until it is equivalent with the Gargoyle, Warhawk, Executioner, and other sad bad Clan assault 'Mechs), because that is where people believe that particular tool type in its specific tool set should be.

Many players - not necessarily all the players, of course, but many players - are used to Clan assault machines being of dubious value at best, to the point where they've settled on the idea that these machines are not actually bad. I've heard plenty of folks saying "the Gargoyle is actually the best 80-ton 'Mech in the game!" Potentially true - but considering that competition is between the Garfayle, the Victurd, and the Awesucks...well, it's not really a hard competition to win, is it? The question to ask is "would the Gargoyle (or the Executioner, or the Highlander-IIC, or the Warhawk, or Whatever) win battles against Fattlemasters, Manshees, Fatlasses, Darth Maulers, and other high-end Sphere toolset assault machines, in a fair and reasonable competitive context?"

The answer is generally "BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA what are you high?" followed by ridicule. For anyone who's informed but also kind of a d***.

Considering the tournament is forcing a period of evaluation on the KDK-3, the main player request (from some players) prior to a savage nerf-strangling - i.e. time, to see if the machine is as overpowered as its early, perfect-storm performance indicated it may be or if it's simply a really good assault 'Mech - is largely accomplished. The second player request - that whatever nerf happens doesn't destroy the Kodiak as a chassis - is...up in the air. But we all remember it is vastly more difficult to 'dial up' a 'Mech once it has been nerfed too far than to get it nerfed in the first place, yes?

I mean hell - how're those Raven leg hitboxes looking?

[LordKnightFandragon]

When is it going up for Cbills? I know it just came out, but when? Same with the Rifleman.

[wanderer]

Months from now, like everything else does. Cash, MC, Cb in that order.

Also, I actually admire the KDK-3 for being one of the few Clan designs that IMHO do NOT need quirks.

IMHO, it'd be about perfect just on it's own merits. Most of the rest at least could benefit from mild quirkage like they got, maybe a bit more love for the under-used bots like the -5. Absolutely the -3 doesn't need to be negative quirked, the entire Kodiak line is the first truly decent assault series for Clantech.

[Crushko]

Personally I didnt expect this much uproar. The Dire Wolf can run quad UAC 10 as well. Yes, the Kodiak is a bit faster, but Dire Wolfs dont go down as fast as the Kodiaks due to their large CT. When I sit in my DW Im always happy to encounter a KDK (3).

If anything what the Kodiak 3 did was to bring the dakka meta a bit more into the foreground, as there was too much laser vomit meta in the game. Finally people realized that dakka is powerful as well, not just lasers, lasers and more lasers. Apart from that you can also play LBX 40 as a somewhat fast shotgun build.

Edited by Crushko, 03 June 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[wanderer]

Dire Wolves are to Catapult-K2 Gauss/AC20 as Kodiak-3 is to Jagermech Gauss/AC20.

A good weapon layout on a good chassis > a good weapon layout on a mediocre chassis.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Crushko, on 03 June 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Personally I didnt expect this much uproar. The Dire Wolf can run quad UAC 10 as well. Yes, the Kodiak is a bit faster, but Dire Wolfs dont go down as fast as the Kodiaks due to their large CT. When I sit in my DW Im always happy to encounter a KDK (3).

If anything what the Kodiak 3 did was to bring the dakka meta a bit more into the foreground, as there was too much laser vomit meta in the game. Finally people realized that dakka is powerful as well, not just lasers, lasers and more lasers. Apart from that you can also play LBX 40 as a somewhat fast shotgun build.

The Dire Wolf needs a rescale and a slight remodeling. Kodiak is 15m like the atlas, Dire wolf is 12. some odd meters, and not nearly as....Victorian mansion as it is now. The nose is shorter, both length and height, the roof thing it has, holy crap its to damn big. Same goes for the Warhawk really. Kodiak really is pretty well done. It looks like a Kodiak, outside the claws being more like hypodermic needles instead of claws, and that cockpit, while I get the essence of what its going for, just looks a little odd. From the cockpit it looks more like a knight wearing a plate helmet, and from looking at the model, it looks kinda like a bear, but still more like a knights skullcap.

[MischiefSC]

@@Jiggly
I'm just here farming post count and leveling my new deck.

Facts, Facts, Sarcasm, Resonable. I generally save the sarcasm/scorn decks for IS v Clan balance drops but on this thread it's more an "overall game balance" map and not a "Clans are oppressed" map, though some people who don't get good FW strategy try to play it as such.

I don't normally go Facts on the first drop, usually do best leading with Humor or Scorn depending on if it's a good team on the other side or not and if it's the Clan V IS front. However this new map really favors a Facts heavy deck. You just have to watch out for people trying to corner peek with Strawman decks like "you just hate Clans" and "It's not OP for me" stuff. Those may work well in T5-T3 pug threads but not a more competitive thread like this. I'm all but sync dropping with heavy T1 Forum Warriors like McGral and Sjorpha and it's easy to focus fire those down. Honestly Gyrok is a good player just that when you let him call your Forum Warfare drops it gets predictable.

End of the day almost all the best teams are on this side even if they're a bit burned out on the map and more focused on the contest. At least the other team drops a lot so matches are fast, makes leveling my deck easier.

Ironic that the best PvP experience PGI has ever created can be played from my phone.

[Crushko]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 June 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

The Dire Wolf needs a rescale and a slight remodeling. Kodiak is 15m like the atlas, Dire wolf is 12. some odd meters, and not nearly as....Victorian mansion as it is now. The nose is shorter, both length and height, the roof thing it has, holy crap its to damn big. Same goes for the Warhawk really. Kodiak really is pretty well done. It looks like a Kodiak, outside the claws being more like hypodermic needles instead of claws, and that cockpit, while I get the essence of what its going for, just looks a little odd. From the cockpit it looks more like a knight wearing a plate helmet, and from looking at the model, it looks kinda like a bear, but still more like a knights skullcap.

Yes and on top of that, in this game the Daishi/Dire Wolf and the Masakari/Warhawk look too similar.
Longer nose and shorter roof for the Daishi would fix this.

However I dont know if the rescale will just enlarge/shrink the whole mech or if they also rescale the proportions of the individual mech parts.

Edited by Crushko, 03 June 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 02 June 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

It's really hard not to get frustrated at you guys because you keep completely ignoring stuff said not just on this topic elsewhere (but being discussed here) but actual things people are saying in this thread.

Now, I realize, you can easily overlook a single word.

You did not read Quicksilver's actual post.

The very single first word he wrote is the biggest 2 letter word in the entire English language: IF

He stated specifically: "If there are 2 things that would need to be done..."

If is a single word that implies that there is doubt about the necessity of said actions. He also later stated that he, personally, felt the KDK3 is fine.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 03 June 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Now, I realize, you can easily overlook a single word.

You did not read Quicksilver's actual post.

The very single first word he wrote is the biggest 2 letter word in the entire English language: IF

He stated specifically: "If there are 2 things that would need to be done..."

If is a single word that implies that there is doubt about the necessity of said actions. He also later stated that he, personally, felt the KDK3 is fine.

Hey said he felt it's as powerful as assaults should be and that existing assaults are too weak. Again, he made more than 1 post in this thread and others. I suspect that if they said something other than "Gyrok is right" you ignored them.

You also show exactly why I don't want to discuss my own stats or specifically quote what other people have said - your response is to ignore the whole body of that post and every other post in question and the sum body of every other comp player in this thread and others to try and debate what they were implying in the use of 1 word.

It's not my point or purpose to put words in anyone else's mouth - however it's not unreasonable when debating a topic to expect people to actually read what's been posted on it.

Have you been watching any of the matches so far in the event? Seen what mechs are being taken?

Though I'm going to guess you have an excuse for that already.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Hey said he felt it's as powerful as assaults should be and that existing assaults are too weak. Again, he made more than 1 post in this thread and others. I suspect that if they said something other than "Gyrok is right" you ignored them.

You also show exactly why I don't want to discuss my own stats or specifically quote what other people have said - your response is to ignore the whole body of that post and every other post in question and the sum body of every other comp player in this thread and others to try and debate what they were implying in the use of 1 word.

It's not my point or purpose to put words in anyone else's mouth - however it's not unreasonable when debating a topic to expect people to actually read what's been posted on it.

Have you been watching any of the matches so far in the event? Seen what mechs are being taken?

Though I'm going to guess you have an excuse for that already.

To start with, let us consider the following 2 phrases:

"The KDK should have quirks removed..."

"If the KDK should have quirks removed..."

Now, I am not an english literature professor; however, I doubt even you can manage to try to spin those 2 phrases into anything other than they mean very different things.

As for mechs used, KDK is FOTM and it is a good assault...I suspect most teams are experimenting with it to see where it fits in. Honestly, prior to that, all you saw were MALs and BNCs, with an occasional AS7 in a brawl deck. Honestly refreshing to see things shaken up a bit.

[MischiefSC]

Okay. Well good luck with that Gyrok. If at any time you're curious about what people have said a about the KDK3 there is 26 pages on this thread and 3 other threads on the topic. Also the eponymous reddit post. Take some time, read through, you'll want to have some dismissal or avoidance for a lot of that ready. Also want to read up on what you want to misinterpret or ignore.

I get that you're saying that comp tier teams playing in a challenge for not just supreme bragging rights but many thousands of dollars in prizes are not playing what works best but what's new, because they're all stupid.

When that becomes just too hard to sustain and dedicated comp play starts to show out what's already demonstrated, voiced and predicted you'll probably want a new tact to take. There's always the old horse of "Clans are supposed to be OP". You can also go with "They just don't understand how great the Mauler and Banshee are".

Then again you are the uncontested master of justifying imbalanced Clan mechs, I have no place telling you your business!

Was going on an old post walk about. All this sparing aside I really mean it when I say go look at command center, go page 3, start reading backward.

While you personally have some amazing work in your discussions on why the Clans were balanced at release and some needed buffs, that's not even the point.

Everything PGI said spawned a feedback thread and they responded in it. You can see a discernable, clear difference in attitude from then to now. They were invested, even excited. Now they seem like they're working in a job they hate but that pays the bills.

It's an illuminating experience.

[Shard Phoenix]