1017 replies to this topic

[Col Jaime Wolf]

JackalBeast, on 06 June 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Obviously it's a strategy to show how overpowered the Kodiak is. Compare it to sub par clan mechs.
" It goes 89kph, does a 130 point alpha, twists Cent on steroids, and OK OK maybe the CT is barely oversized."
Sounds about right.

The thing is a beast, it's supposed to be. It's a 100 ton mech. The largest class available. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ASSAULT MECH. OH MY GOD WHY AM I USING BIG LETTERS TO EMPHASIZE WHAT I THINK SHOULD BE COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD. WHO DOES THAT.

didnt you get the memo? assault mechs are meant to be chewtoys for heavies and lights, their only natural prey mediums have to be buffed to get into this feast too.

and 100 tons just means more cbillz to grind off his sry ***.

[Baba Yogi]

JackalBeast, on 06 June 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Obviously it's a strategy to show how overpowered the Kodiak is. Compare it to sub par clan mechs.
" It goes 89kph, does a 130 point alpha, twists Cent on steroids, and OK OK maybe the CT is barely oversized."
Sounds about right.

The thing is a beast, it's supposed to be. It's a 100 ton mech. The largest class available. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ASSAULT MECH. OH MY GOD WHY AM I USING BIG LETTERS TO EMPHASIZE WHAT I THINK SHOULD BE COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD. WHO DOES THAT.

We were talking about agility standpoint. Dont pick words, out of context everything can be stretched to anywhere.

Assaults are supposed to be tanks, thats their job in the game, they provide area of denial for their team thus create a safe zone so enemy cant push easy, they are the anchor for their team. If a team loses too many assaults, an enemy assault push will end the game most of the time. They cannot be "be all end all" machines, kdk-3 does 36dps, show me a viable build that has anywhere near that number[(4x4)*2*(10/8.8)], on top of that dps enemy cant react because of cockpit shake, it has highest amount of armor possible, very agile for the tonnage and has very high hardpoints on top. A mech shouldnt have that many advantages. But if you dont believe my word, i'd like to link you to a great statistic post alistair made. It shows 61 out of 68 assaults mechs picked in the current tournament was kdk-3.

http://mwomercs.com/...to-analyze-mwo/

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

It shows 61 out of 68 assaults mechs picked in the current tournament was kdk-3.

You assume all of them are dakka though, the dakka isn't the only viable/strong build on that thing.

Your DPS numbers are also misleading as they don't take into account heat or jamming, at all.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 June 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Baba Yogi]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 June 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

You assume all of them are dakka though, the dakka isn't the only viable/strong build on that thing.

Your DPS numbers are also misleading as they don't take into account heat or jamming, at all.

Only other reason to get kdk-3 would be quad gauss i suppose, why bring kdk-3 if you are not gonna utilize those ballistics? Still those were all kdk-3s, there are 16 assault chassis and multiple variants each and it doesnt strike you odd that 90% of them are single variant of a single mech? Even you have to admit to that.

Also by the time those cannons all jam or you overheat, someones gonna die for certain, multiple someones even. (unless you got very unlucky).

If we are going correct dps calculation route, no number you see in smurfy is completely right, lasers lose some of their damage due to burn, gauss has disadvantage against quick peeks, missiles miss partially etc. Each weapon has its own weakness, we're not talking about that here.

Edited by Lordhammer, 06 June 2016 - 03:26 PM.

[Belacose]

All the constant pressure to nerf the Kodiak 3 on this thread led me to quit playing it as I didn't want to get too comfortable playing something that was probable for a nerf based on all the moaning.

So.... just a couple days ago I purchased the Mauler MX90 and already fell in love with this thing because I'm doing a good bit better with it than the Kodiak 3. My favorite mechs to kill with my new Mauler are Kodiaks because they fall so easily to the point of almost being comical.

IMO the MAL-MX90 is better than the KDK-3 by a fair amount. This is my own personal comparison between a fully mastered Kodiak 3 with all modules Vs a fresh Mauler MX90 with only one module equipped thus far.

[Roadkill]

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

kdk-3 does 36dps

No, it doesn't. I realize math is hard, but math tells you that even the much overhyped "80-pt double-tap" is only a 50-50 proposition.

[Jackal Noble]

Quad Gauss is such a joke build. But sure you can do it

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Only other reason to get kdk-3 would be quad gauss i suppose

Wrong, Gauss/PPCs is currently what you will see on most top comp teams. From the look of the Lords/NS match even Lords is running it despite having dakka heavies/mediums.

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Also by the time those cannons all jam or you overheat, someones gonna die for certain, multiple someones even. (unless you got very unlucky).

Or are outranged, which happens often on Canyon unless you are specifically built for a push and even then, getting into range against an appropriately setup team can be tricky.

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

If we are going correct dps calculation route, no number you see in smurfy is completely right, lasers lose some of their damage due to burn,

Pretty sure duration is calculated into DPS on smurfy (compare ERLL vs LL), however the burst duration of UACs is not (not that it is large). Also, YOU brought up DPS like it was some unholy obscene number, when it wasn't even a practical number. I didn't bring DPS into this, you did.

Side Note: People over-estimate the high mounts on the KDK-3, with how much you expose thanks to how wide it is at the top of the mech, you still expose a great deal of your mech that is roughly similar in surface area to the Mauler (just with worse hitboxes).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 June 2016 - 03:52 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Only other reason to get kdk-3 would be quad gauss i suppose, why bring kdk-3 if you are not gonna utilize those ballistics? Still those were all kdk-3s, there are 16 assault chassis and multiple variants each and it doesnt strike you odd that 90% of them are single variant of a single mech? Even you have to admit to that.

Also by the time those cannons all jam or you overheat, someones gonna die for certain, multiple someones even. (unless you got very unlucky).

If we are going correct dps calculation route, no number you see in smurfy is completely right, lasers lose some of their damage due to burn, gauss has disadvantage against quick peeks, missiles miss partially etc. Each weapon has its own weakness, we're not talking about that here.

From what I see of the rules there is no tonnage restriction, only that you put together a team that is 2/2/2/2. Why bring 80 ton assaults when you can take 100?

There are what, four 100 ton mechs in the game? If you can ensure a brawl you'd take an atlas but in a vacuum you can't really do that. King crab/whale don't have high mounts like the kodiak. You can't afford to be taking low mounts on that map.

With that map and those non-restrictions it's a pretty obvious choice.

On the other hand, the oxide. Jumpjets are AWESOME on this map and yet most teams bring oxides instead of jumpjet capable mechs. Seems kind of strange to me....

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 June 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Side Note: People over-estimate the high mounts on the KDK-3, with how much you expose thanks to how wide it is at the top of the mech, you still expose a great deal of your mech that is roughly similar in surface area to the Mauler (just with worse hitboxes).

I've posted pictures of that earlier in the thread, but because I'm not a Tier Zero UberComp Church of Skill Top Team GGClothes TRVEKOMP, it was roundly ignored.

Go figure, a non comp player actually getting something right? Whodathunk?

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Only other reason to get kdk-3 would be quad gauss i suppose, why bring kdk-3 if you are not gonna utilize those ballistics?

and posts like this are why most non Tier Zero Uber Comps get ignored... SMH......

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 June 2016 - 04:49 PM.

[SilkiJ]

I did the most damage I have ever done in a KDK3 running 4-UAC2's and 2-ERPPC's. Do you know the most OP thing in this game? RANGE!, if I can deal effective damage at range you will be softened up by the time you get your brawly *** near me.

I have used the 4 UAC10 build, and it is ok but not anything to write home about. Don't get me wrong I have had some decent matches in it. But if you try to brawl with it you will die quickly. It just seems like its OP because its a new, and there are a ton of ppl using it.

Do you know who I kill while using it? Mechs who stand out in the open, not moving, not twisting, face tanking. You must realize that thing is somewhat difficult to hit anything moving at a decent clip, in fact with projectile speed you must lead targets just right to smack em with a few shots. All the while leaving yourself exposed to pinpoint laser damage on your huge CT.

I went to buy a Clan assault before the Kodi was released. I settled on a Mauler after all was said and done, because frankly the Clan assaults were ****.

To conclude Clan finally gets a decent mech and all the IS players cry and cry. When in reality everyone has been stomping Clan mechs into oblivion with quirks and whatnot. So I really hope they leave it as is. Players will adapt, Kodiak population will go down, and everyone will cry about the next OP mech coming out in a week or so.

[cazidin]

Hey, Bishop, I don't wish to derail you thread but this is relevant to the topic. With the REQUIRKENING V:AGE OF THE SPIDER coming soon™ in the June Patch do you think PGI will just blanket remove or reduce the quirks across all Kodiak variants?

[MischiefSC]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 06 June 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

didnt you get the memo? assault mechs are meant to be chewtoys for heavies and lights, their only natural prey mediums have to be buffed to get into this feast too.

and 100 tons just means more cbillz to grind off his sry ***.

Again, not true.

Assaults have a place - however if that place is 'best mech on the field' we've done that. Remember when it was always assault mechs in the queue so they created 3/3/3/3? Because that's all anyone played, because they were flat out superior to other mechs.

The Banshee, Atlas and Mauler are on the twitchy edge of balanced. I'd like LPLs to have their beam duration increased a tiny bit and I think the weapon quirks on both Atlas and Mauler are questionable. I'd rather they get weapon quirks toned down a tiny bit and structure up (yes, even on the Atlas).

I'm all for long TTK because the end result of that will be bigger reward for better teamwork.

Problem with the KDK3 is that it pushes a bit beyond where those fit and that puts it even further into category of 'only sorta balanced'. Imbalanced and OP are mostly semantical.

[Baba Yogi]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 June 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Wrong, Gauss/PPCs is currently what you will see on most top comp teams. From the look of the Lords/NS match even Lords is running it despite having dakka heavies/mediums.


Or are outranged, which happens often on Canyon unless you are specifically built for a push and even then, getting into range against an appropriately setup team can be tricky.


Pretty sure duration is calculated into DPS on smurfy (compare ERLL vs LL), however the burst duration of UACs is not (not that it is large). Also, YOU brought up DPS like it was some unholy obscene number, when it wasn't even a practical number. I didn't bring DPS into this, you did.

Side Note: People over-estimate the high mounts on the KDK-3, with how much you expose thanks to how wide it is at the top of the mech, you still expose a great deal of your mech that is roughly similar in surface area to the Mauler (just with worse hitboxes).

***Hardpoint issue: Still much better than most assaults. Kdk, Blr, Stk and Bnc are the only ones with such advantage. This advantage over other assaults let them be much more efficient with their armor, none can deny that. And also the unlocked clanxl.[/color]

***Dps issue: First salvo for it will be 36 dps, or 32 if one uac jams. If you stay after that first salvo you're cored/dead so dps dont matter much when enemy already retreated/dead. I know this from first hand, i got cored with my marauders from yellow armor in matches enough to know, you just dont give a kodiak clean firing line, even if you just retreat immediately if you're the target and he's decent with ac's you've lost too much armor. I still havent seen any decent build that can do that dps with that much armor and speed. But if you dont believe me just arrange some private matches with any builds you can make and do 1v1s with an equally skilled pilot on a kdk-3, see if can anything withstand that damage. Only way i see kdk lose is death by thousand cuts by ecm light with erlls etc. But in queue matches it doesnt really work that way unfortunately.[/color]

***Burn duration: I think you misunderstood me. Go to your stats page and divide "damage" with "hit". That will show you that weapon's true damage effectiveness with you on the helm.[/color]

Still i havent seen any reply from you forum warriors about the 61/68 kdk thing? Perhaps one of you win the tournament with no kdk drops and then i may take you for your word. All i hear is that how much you like that mech.

Templar Dane, on 06 June 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

From what I see of the rules there is no tonnage restriction, only that you put together a team that is 2/2/2/2. Why bring 80 ton assaults when you can take 100?

There are what, four 100 ton mechs in the game? If you can ensure a brawl you'd take an atlas but in a vacuum you can't really do that. King crab/whale don't have high mounts like the kodiak. You can't afford to be taking low mounts on that map.

With that map and those non-restrictions it's a pretty obvious choice.

On the other hand, the oxide. Jumpjets are AWESOME on this map and yet most teams bring oxides instead of jumpjet capable mechs. Seems kind of strange to me....

Ironically you've just defended what i've been saying dude, kodiaks are the most effective assault mech. Sounds in line with what i've been saying.

Edited by Lordhammer, 07 June 2016 - 05:26 AM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

MischiefSC, on 06 June 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Again, not true.

Assaults have a place - however if that place is 'best mech on the field' we've done that. Remember when it was always assault mechs in the queue so they created 3/3/3/3? Because that's all anyone played, because they were flat out superior to other mechs.

The Banshee, Atlas and Mauler are on the twitchy edge of balanced. I'd like LPLs to have their beam duration increased a tiny bit and I think the weapon quirks on both Atlas and Mauler are questionable. I'd rather they get weapon quirks toned down a tiny bit and structure up (yes, even on the Atlas).

I'm all for long TTK because the end result of that will be bigger reward for better teamwork.

Problem with the KDK3 is that it pushes a bit beyond where those fit and that puts it even further into category of 'only sorta balanced'. Imbalanced and OP are mostly semantical.

note; my sarcasm was not caught, darn that sneaky *******.

Lordhammer, on 07 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

***Hardpoint issue: Still much better than most assaults. Kdk, Blr, Stk and Bnc are the only ones with such advantage. This advantage over other assaults let them be much more efficient with their armor, none can deny that. And also the unlocked clanxl.[/color]

***Dps issue: First salvo for it will be 36 dps, or 32 if one uac jams. If you stay after that first salvo you're cored/dead so dps dont matter much when enemy already retreated/dead. I know this from first hand, i got cored with my marauders from yellow armor in matches enough to know, you just dont give a kodiak clean firing line, even if you just retreat immediately if you're the target and he's decent with ac's you've lost too much armor. I still havent seen any decent build that can do that dps with that much armor and speed. But if you dont believe me just arrange some private matches with any builds you can make and do 1v1s with an equally skilled pilot on a kdk-3, see if can anything withstand that damage. Only way i see kdk lose is death by thousand cuts by ecm light with erlls etc. But in queue matches it doesnt really work that way unfortunately.[/color]

***Burn duration: I think you misunderstood me. Go to your stats page and divide "damage" with "hit". That will show you that weapon's true damage effectiveness with you on the helm.[/color]

Still i havent seen any reply from you forum warriors about the 61/68 kdk thing? Perhaps one of you win the tournament with no kdk drops and then i may take you for your word. All i hear is that how much you like that mech.

Ironically you've just defended what i've been saying dude, kodiaks are the most effective assault mech. Sounds in line with what i've been saying.

2 things first off on your stats page that is the actual damage you HAVE dealt so to find out how much you are missing you would actually do the reverse and figure out how much that missing % adds up to.

second thing. play a kodiak and then you can tell me its instaP2W OP ruler of all the things. no amount of playing rate the paper tiger will tell you the truth, using it for yourself on the battlefield will.

I agree its a good assault and its powerful in the right place at the right time but it also is the squishiest 100 tonner in the game hands down because of that massive CT that often means your armor is effectively 120 instead of 614. and objectively i would say the mauler has it beat hands down in any long range engagement and an atlas has it beat up close so its not like it dominates everything from 0m-1000m, rather it plays best in the 300-450m range where ultra 10's are stil easy to aim at moving targets but your outside of brawling range.

and just try to put someone down thats twisting well, you may well have to beat off both his arms and torsos to get there. lately i have just taken to legging people because its just faster.

[Aerei]

Honestly--at least facing the Kodiak, I think it's fine.

No, I'm not trolling. Hear me out for a second. Skip to TL;DR if you dislike reading.

The Kodiak is an offensive beast with enough power to entirely put away people not paying attention, and the best builds dominate the mid range field. The tradeoffs are less structure than its IS weight counterparts, and horrible hitboxes. I don't see how that's very different from the Jenner II C against the Oxide, or the Hunchback IIC against competitive IS 45-50 tonners. As some Kodiak defenders and users have pointed out, the Kodiak's hitboxes are horrible. This makes them pretty easy to take out at longer ranges, where the AC10's accuracy will start to suffer. This makes it very possible to engage and take out a Kodiak without much issue, and since the mech is not as sturdy as an Atlas, it's massive hitboxes can be its undoing very easily.

It's a really good, competitive assault mech, something that could be argued the clans needed (depending on your perspective on the Direwhale), but it's not ridiculously OP.

TL;DR for those with short attention spans: If you're trying to brute force a Kodiak at mid range, whatever happens is your own fault.

PS. Work on that attention span, too. It's probably why the Bear keeps killing you.

[Corrado]

MischiefSC, on 06 June 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Again, not true.

Assaults have a place - however if that place is 'best mech on the field' we've done that. Remember when it was always assault mechs in the queue so they created 3/3/3/3? Because that's all anyone played, because they were flat out superior to other mechs.

The Banshee, Atlas and Mauler are on the twitchy edge of balanced. I'd like LPLs to have their beam duration increased a tiny bit and I think the weapon quirks on both Atlas and Mauler are questionable. I'd rather they get weapon quirks toned down a tiny bit and structure up (yes, even on the Atlas).

I'm all for long TTK because the end result of that will be bigger reward for better teamwork.

Problem with the KDK3 is that it pushes a bit beyond where those fit and that puts it even further into category of 'only sorta balanced'. Imbalanced and OP are mostly semantical.

It's like 2 years that the biggest queue is the heavy one (45-50%) while assaults and mediums had 25-30% and lights 15-20%...

damn that KDK crusade have really a bad effect on facts.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lordhammer, on 07 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

***Hardpoint issue: Still much better than most assaults. Kdk, Blr, Stk and Bnc are the only ones with such advantage.

The fact you didn't include the Mauler in here is a little disheartening considering it exposes as much (if not less) than the Kodiak to use its mounts.

Lordhammer, on 07 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

***Dps issue: First salvo for it will be 36 dps

DPS is typically used to show off sustained damage of a variant, not burst damage. It would be more meaningful to simply say it can do bursts of 80 damage, than making a statement about DPS.

Lordhammer, on 07 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

But if you dont believe me just arrange some private matches with any builds you can make and do 1v1s with an equally skilled pilot on a kdk-3, see if can anything withstand that damage.

You realize I'm on SJR and we have already done tests on this right? 1v1s aren't good indicators of a mech's capability because having a team changes what is most effective (brawling, range, etc) with more people on the field often making range a bit easier to play because you can get concave firing lines setup.

Lordhammer, on 07 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Burn duration: I think you misunderstood me. Go to your stats page and divide "damage" with "hit". That will show you that weapon's true damage effectiveness with you on the helm.

You're moving the goal post then, I wasn't talking about weaknesses about hitting with a weapon. Raw DPS is a worthless number unless you have context of heat and jam time which change how often you fire, not how often you can hit, don't conflate the two.

Lordhammer, on 07 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Still i havent seen any reply from you forum warriors about the 61/68 kdk thing? Perhaps one of you win the tournament with no kdk drops and then i may take you for your word. All i hear is that how much you like that mech.

Ummmm, I have, you just either skipped over it or ignored it, not my fault you are a selective reader.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lordhammer, on 06 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Only other reason to get kdk-3 would be quad gauss i suppose, why bring kdk-3 if you are not gonna utilize those ballistics? Still those were all kdk-3s, there are 16 assault chassis and multiple variants each and it doesnt strike you odd that 90% of them are single variant of a single mech? Even you have to admit to that.

Also by the time those cannons all jam or you overheat, someones gonna die for certain, multiple someones even. (unless you got very unlucky).

If we are going correct dps calculation route, no number you see in smurfy is completely right, lasers lose some of their damage due to burn, gauss has disadvantage against quick peeks, missiles miss partially etc. Each weapon has its own weakness, we're not talking about that here.

So you don't really know but are making comments about the UAC10 build because you see it in the public queue?

FYI, the top tier teams are NOT primarily using dakka or quad gauss on their KDK-3s.

[Bishop Steiner]

Eh. As stated, let's just get the nerf done and out of the way with.

So that they can then start railing against the next most useful KDK and get it nerfed, and then the next......