1017 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Rhent, on 10 June 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

A KDK can run a 350XL + 4 DHS in the engine + Ferro/Endo + Full Armor
and have: 53 tons pod space + 29 crit slots.+ move at 61 KPH + use clan weapons

The chassis needs negative quirks, preferably applied to its acceleration, deceleration and turning radius to remove about 50-75 engine rating for those characteristics but leave it with the exact same speed for its rating. The KDK-3 needs a bigger nerf than the rest of the chassis. They should leave the weapons and structure component alone for the KDK and instead focus on the main issue maneuverability for a 100 tonner w/ that amount of pod space and survivability.

and this kind of totally unsubstantiated tripe is why we can't have nice things, ladies and gentlemen.

There is absolutely ZERO, ZERO data supportng any of the other KDK variants being out of line, but here you are blinding demanding they be nerfed.

OK, for those who were asking about the full are-tard nerf suggestions?

Here ya go.

Keshav Murali, on 10 June 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

???

All the guys here are calling for very reasonable changes.

Fix hitboxes -- MAKE CT SMALLER (more like Atlas) is the demand. Then remove structure quirks from KDK-3. I don't see what is so hard to understand here. you are exaggerating by a lot. If anyone calls for negative quirks, rest assured, no one sane is supporting that.

for last few months PGI hasn't ham-handedly nerfed any mech. If they nerf all Kodiaks, the backlash will be huge.

Give KDK-1, KDK-5 quirks, remove from 3. That's all MischiefSC and the others on his side are asking for. I don't see how this is unreasonable. They want other variants also to perform as well. All they believe is, KDK-3 is good enough that it can perform evenly with IS assault mechs and doesn't need quirks to do so. That's all.

Sjorpha, on 10 June 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

The last two mechs they nerfed due to being overpowered was the blackjack and black knight, in both of those cases they simply toned the quirks down a bit. Same with other recent examples of underpowered mechs like the arrow, slight quirk buffs.

So what exactly is the reason to expect that they will go ridiculously overboard with the kodiak? Why not expect and argue for a simple quirk reduction like the bj and bk got.

Also even if I did expect them to go overboard, it still wouldn't be a relevant argument against the reasonable changes. We should argue for good things and against bad things.

Baulven, on 10 June 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

So that escalated quickly from we just want the quirks removed from the three to nerf them all into oblivion. Good to know that balance is the goal of this huge relentless never to die thread.

As a side note I don't own a KDK and I kill them easily all the time. I don't see it needing a nerf personally.

don't mistake the uber biased agenda of individual posters with the goal of the OP, thanks. Uber nonsense slinging posts like the one above is WHY I had to make this thread in the first place.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 June 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[Baulven]

Sorry I got a little irritated when people go overboard on the nerf train. I have to trust others if the kdk needs adjustment but when I see nerf it all NAO! tends to get me riled up a bit.

[Bishop Steiner]

Baulven, on 10 June 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Sorry I got a little irritated when people go overboard on the nerf train. I have to trust others if the kdk needs adjustment but when I see nerf it all NAO! tends to get me riled up a bit.

Yeah, you ain't alone, hence this Topic.

I prefer to try to rope in all the debate, Pro/Con, Good/Bad/Ugly, Well Thought out/ Not so much, Good Idae/ Bad Idea, Bias/Unbiased, etc in one place, so on the off chance a Dev does read it, he gets a pretty comprehensive cross section.

But as pone shoudl be able to tell by some of my replies, I have a very low Stupid Tolerance.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Yeah, you ain't alone, hence this Topic.

I prefer to try to rope in all the debate, Pro/Con, Good/Bad/Ugly, Well Thought out/ Not so much, Good Idae/ Bad Idea, Bias/Unbiased, etc in one place, so on the off chance a Dev does read it, he gets a pretty comprehensive cross section.

But as pone shoudl be able to tell by some of my replies, I have a very low Stupid Tolerance.

Hypothetically, if the Kodiak CT is currently a bullet magnet, and the minor quirks are a response to that, would it not make more sense to adjust the CT and bump down the quirks on the variants that have them?

Slight nerf to mobility for some variants, potentially huge survivability buff for all variants. Or is my reasoning here not so good with the brain things?

[wanderer]

Nerf everything?

What, is a Clan assault without a gaping, massive flaw in it's design somehow wrong?

[Bishop Steiner]

Afuldan McKronik, on 10 June 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Hypothetically, if the Kodiak CT is currently a bullet magnet, and the minor quirks are a response to that, would it not make more sense to adjust the CT and bump down the quirks on the variants that have them?

Slight nerf to mobility for some variants, potentially huge survivability buff for all variants. Or is my reasoning here not so good with the brain things?

No, if would indeed enhance survivability for the vast majority of players, since twisting is an unknown art, and the KDK isn't really THAT agile despite McGral's assertion. The issue is, outside of the very top tier of play, it would actually make the StareBear everyone is crying about STRONGER. Because most people stand and stare anyhow. And truth to tell, the upper tiers seem to prefer the PotShotBear, anyhow.

And for the other variants? I actually think it'd hurt the Spirit Bear and 4, considerably, since mobility, especially worth the Spirit Bear, it's whay makes it tick. Remove that extra mobility, and even with a better CT hitboxes, it's just a slightly faster, but weaker AS7-S, when you note the ppfld of the IS ac20, better spread and damage to IS srms and shorter laser burn times.... And that is before adding an insane amount of structural buffs.

Truth to tell I'd prefer my StinkBear (KDK4) with it's broken CT, and mobility than without.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

No, if would indeed enhance survivability for the vast majority of players, since twisting is an unknown art, and the KDK isn't really THAT agile despite McGral's assertion. The issue is, outside of the very top tier of play, it would actually make the StareBear everyone is crying about STRONGER. Because most people stand and stare anyhow. And truth to tell, the upper tiers seem to prefer the PotShotBear, anyhow.

And for the other variants? I actually think it'd hurt the Spirit Bear and 4, considerably, since mobility, especially worth the Spirit Bear, it's whay makes it tick. Remove that extra mobility, and even with a better CT hitboxes, it's just a slightly faster, but weaker AS7-S, when you note the ppfld of the IS ac20, better spread and damage to IS srms and shorter laser burn times.... And that is before adding an insane amount of structural buffs.

Truth to tell I'd prefer my StinkBear (KDK4) with it's broken CT, and mobility than without.

Interesting. I like your opinion on it. Maybe a compromise of loosing the laughable amount of structure on the 2,3,4 and SB for the same mobility quirks on the 1 and 5?

[Bishop Steiner]

Afuldan McKronik, on 10 June 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

Interesting. I like your opinion on it. Maybe a compromise of loosing the laughable amount of structure on the 2,3,4 and SB for the same mobility quirks on the 1 and 5?

While I do think that in itself would be fine, what I'd doesn't address still is the perceived OP status of the 3. Otherwise sounds good

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

While I do think that in itself would be fine, what I'd doesn't address still is the perceived OP status of the 3. Otherwise sounds good

I really don't see any way to balance that except maybe drop the mobility quirks, on that one variant, without it being an "uncalledfor nerf omg."

Which it would be still lauded about as.

[P H O X]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

There is absolutely ZERO, ZERO data supportng any of the other KDK variants being out of line, but here you are blinding demanding they be nerfed.

I think at least the Championship statistics seem to show KDK-3 on top.

[Bishop Steiner]

P H O X, on 10 June 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

I think at least the Championship statistics seem to show KDK-3 on top.

........ And I was referring to the OTHER 5 variants Rhent is ranting to have nerfed?

As for the 3, once pointed out, repeatedly where the proposed nerfs will have minimal actual impact on the build everyone is whining about.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 June 2016 - 04:59 PM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

P H O X, on 10 June 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

I think at least the Championship statistics seem to show KDK-3 on top.

Yeah, apparently the shoutcasters were kind of suprised to see one of my unitmates bring a EXE.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

No, if would indeed enhance survivability for the vast majority of players, since twisting is an unknown art, and the KDK isn't really THAT agile despite McGral's assertion. The issue is, outside of the very top tier of play, it would actually make the StareBear everyone is crying about STRONGER. Because most people stand and stare anyhow. And truth to tell, the upper tiers seem to prefer the PotShotBear, anyhow.

And for the other variants? I actually think it'd hurt the Spirit Bear and 4, considerably, since mobility, especially worth the Spirit Bear, it's whay makes it tick. Remove that extra mobility, and even with a better CT hitboxes, it's just a slightly faster, but weaker AS7-S, when you note the ppfld of the IS ac20, better spread and damage to IS srms and shorter laser burn times.... And that is before adding an insane amount of structural buffs.

Truth to tell I'd prefer my StinkBear (KDK4) with it's broken CT, and mobility than without.

I'm game with the SB having some solid, near Atlas level structure quirks with mobility quirks removed.

With the CXL it has better survivability out of the gate. I would love to see the KDK mostly end up as a faster bit not quite as tanky Atlas and the Dire as a slower, about the same tanky but more firepower Atlas.

There's a balance to be found in there and I'm all for it. Currently though mobility has a higher premium than structure quirks, as do higher weapon mounts.

The balance issue in question isn't about how terribads play though. It's mech to mech balance. Saying a mech is balanced because all its significant advantages are not consistently better except for good players isn't a good argument. Also why dialing back mobility quirks pulls all the KDK3 builds in to line.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

I'm game with the SB having some solid, near Atlas level structure quirks with mobility quirks removed.

With the CXL it has better survivability out of the gate. I would love to see the KDK mostly end up as a faster bit not quite as tanky Atlas and the Dire as a slower, about the same tanky but more firepower Atlas.

There's a balance to be found in there and I'm all for it. Currently though mobility has a higher premium than structure quirks, as do higher weapon mounts.

The balance issue in question isn't about how terribads play though. It's mech to mech balance. Saying a mech is balanced because all its significant advantages are not consistently better except for good players isn't a good argument. Also why dialing back mobility quirks pulls all the KDK3 builds in to line.

So now you're claiming the SB is OP now too?

Yeah, cuz I totally didn't call that, or anything.

So, let's get it over with and tell me what the big bad SB and 4 are so OP and need to be nerfed?

And why we need a clan atlas clone instead of the more interesting glass cannon?

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

So now you're claiming the SB is OP now too?

Yeah, cuz I totally didn't call that, or anything.

So, let's get it over with and tell me what the big bad SB and 4 are so OP and need to be nerfed?

And why we need a clan atlas clone instead of the more interesting glass cannon?

I'm not kidding here Bish, quit trying to take everything out of context.

Most Clan mechs (almost all the 2C mechs) are glass canons already. They need another glass canon assault like they need another slow light mech.

The point is a reasonably durable, fast assault with great firepower. I used the Atlas as an example because it's a great baseline. I consider the Banshee as great save for lpls needing a longer burn time and so, as such, I consider it on the fuzzy edge of balanced. I wouldn't say it's the mech to balance against and the kdk3 currently is still better.

The SB, as a hero mech shouldn't be the gold standard either. However it still needs balanced to a good place. They all do.

Currently the kdk3 is not just faster but significantly more agile *plus* having a better loadout. It could lose the agility quirks and still be faster and have a better loadout (and higher mounts) than almost all assaults.

The "nerf" you're talking about is making it 'only' as agile and still more durable as the Wubshee.

So since that is, apparently, a crippling nerf when does the Wubshee get the extra quirks?

[1453 R]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

I'm game with the SB having some solid, near Atlas level structure quirks with mobility quirks removed.

With the CXL it has better survivability out of the gate. I would love to see the KDK mostly end up as a faster bit not quite as tanky Atlas and the Dire as a slower, about the same tanky but more firepower Atlas.

There's a balance to be found in there and I'm all for it. Currently though mobility has a higher premium than structure quirks, as do higher weapon mounts.

The balance issue in question isn't about how terribads play though. It's mech to mech balance. Saying a mech is balanced because all its significant advantages are not consistently better except for good players isn't a good argument. Also why dialing back mobility quirks pulls all the KDK3 builds in to line.

So...take away the one thing that makes the Spirit Bear interesting - its exceptional mobility for its size - and turn it into a crappy Atlas-IIC?

No thanks. Keep your structure, leave the mobility quirks. I bought into the Spirit Bear specifically because it was a 70kph War Train. Atlases are awful to play and I can't understand how anyone can pilot a machine with less agility than the Hindenberg - switching gears and turning the Kodiak into a rotten Clatlas is not nice for people who bought it because it was actually supposed to be able to move.

As for the KDK-3...whatever. Seriously, whatever. I can't make myself care anymore, not when we all know it's doomed. Do whatever. Ravage it. Ruin it. Pillage it, burn its church, sow its fields with salt and take its women as your own. I don't care anymore - just get whatever's going to happen over with so I can figure out if I wasted thirty-five bucks on No-diaks or not.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm not kidding here Bish, quit trying to take everything out of context.

Most Clan mechs (almost all the 2C mechs) are glass canons already. They need another glass canon assault like they need another slow light mech.

The point is a reasonably durable, fast assault with great firepower. I used the Atlas as an example because it's a great baseline. I consider the Banshee as great save for lpls needing a longer burn time and so, as such, I consider it on the fuzzy edge of balanced. I wouldn't say it's the mech to balance against and the kdk3 currently is still better.

The SB, as a hero mech shouldn't be the gold standard either. However it still needs balanced to a good place. They all do.

Currently the kdk3 is not just faster but significantly more agile *plus* having a better loadout. It could lose the agility quirks and still be faster and have a better loadout (and higher mounts) than almost all assaults.

The "nerf" you're talking about is making it 'only' as agile and still more durable as the Wubshee.

So since that is, apparently, a crippling nerf when does the Wubshee get the extra quirks?

I'm not remotely kidding, either. What started as a crusade to kill the 3, now it's a crusade to nerfs all the rest... "Because "

Seriously, please just step away from the game. We get that you hate it and the devs now. So I guess the only joy left is screwing it up for the rest of us.... "Because "?

Seriously, under what alternate twilight zone reality, does the Spirit Bear approach being the "gold standard "?

Just....stop.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 June 2016 - 05:56 PM.

[Reza Malin]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm not kidding here Bish, quit trying to take everything out of context.

This, its just getting old now.

Stop over dramatising everything anyone says that you don't agree with Bishop.

Its like you think having 38,000 posts means you actually know more than other people or something. It doesn't.

Same as your constant condescension that anyone who thinks the KDK-3 is an issue doesn't know how to play, like you are some sort of master or something, or that you seem to think not engaging heavily armed assault mechs head on is some kind of super secret science. Its just tiring rhetoric.

Edited by Fade Akira, 10 June 2016 - 06:04 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fade Akira, on 10 June 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

This, its just getting old now.

Stop over dramatising everything anyone says that you don't agree with Bishop.

Its like you think having 38,000 posts means you actually know more than other people or something. It doesn't.

Same as your constant condescension that anyone who thinks the KDK-3 is an issue doesn't know how to play, like you are some sort of master or something, or that you seem to think not engaging heavily armed assault mechs head on is some kind of super secret science. Its just tiring rhetoric.

Overdramatising?

How about pulling your head out of your butt and try trading what's being said.

The only tiring rhetoric are his totally unsubstantiated claims and your lickspittle agreement worn anything to nerfs the KDK.

Dude just straight up said he wants the SB nerfed too...despite zero actual reason for doing so. Seems to be pretty much proving the point of the OP.

Piss off.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 June 2016 - 06:14 PM.

[Gyrok]

Fade Akira, on 09 June 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

Hello mate. The main problem i see with the KDK over the DWF, is that it has pretty much the same firepower that matters, but without any of the negatives and also more speed and agility on top, especially with the quirks.

Ok yes, can you fit some lasers in the arms on a DWF? Yes you can. Do they make much of a difference when you are already running 4 x UAC10 and probably cant run them efficiently anyway? No they don't.

The fact is the KDK can carry all the weapons that really count that the DWF can, without any of its downsides, and in actual fact, some extra quirks. That to me is OP.

It really doesn't need the quirks when you consider hardpoint placement alone. Come on, someone make a compromise with me here.

No i don't own the KDK, but i have played MWO for 3 years and own pretty much every other clan mech and played clans when they first dropped. They were OP as **** and me and others like Gyrok all loved it. Looking back, yes it was canon, yes in the lore Clans are OP, but in the game it simply can't be that way and it was unfair.

To that end, it is why i go out of my way sometimes to try and curb the clan lovers back to normality. I switched from clan to IS well before IS were quirked into significance and it was a soulless time for the game when every IS game outside of a pre planned top tier comp drop with victors, cataphracts, shadowhawks and firestarters. Mainly Lords. Outside that, most people would get shat on by clans. Now it is fairly balanced it needs to be maintained.

Now it is different but a lot of big BT fans still want OP clan mechs. I find it frustrating sometimes, and smacks of huge FOTM issues. I have no doubt the Night Gyr will be no different.

To be fair, the DW was last relevant more than 6 months ago...and even then, people lauded the mobility as being an absurd weakness that made it balanced pre-giganerf.

Sjorpha, on 10 June 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

The last two mechs they nerfed due to being overpowered was the blackjack and black knight, in both of those cases they simply toned the quirks down a bit. Same with other recent examples of underpowered mechs like the arrow, slight quirk buffs.

So what exactly is the reason to expect that they will go ridiculously overboard with the kodiak? Why not expect and argue for a simple quirk reduction like the bj and bk got.

Also even if I did expect them to go overboard, it still wouldn't be a relevant argument against the reasonable changes. We should argue for good things and against bad things. To defend one bad thinking the hope of preventing a worse thing is incredibly stupid, because it only leads to a polarized race of strawmen, exaggerations and non-communication, like what we see in this thread.

Such a hysterical discussion is more likely to provoke a hysterical response from PGI. By exaggerating one way you are not balancing the opposing exaggerations, not at all, instead what you are doing is to trigger each other into a spiral of increasing hyperbole. That is why threads like this are so harmful, this thread actually makes over the top changes much more likely even if the OP was intended as damage control. These harmful effects become even stronger if the rhetoric employed is bitter sarcasm, setting yourself up for deniability is the most toxic of all forum behaviour ("but all I said was...")

If what we actually want is a reasonable chance for the correct change, and If we do furgher agree that quirk reduction/removal plus better hitboxes is the correct change to the Kodiak, then we should rally behind promoting that good suggestion and against bad suggestions rather than waste time on this hyperbolic damage control reverse psychology nonsense.

Those were IS mechs, they know how to move the dial small on those.

With clan mechs, the dial only goes from 100 to -50, and *if* it ever manages to go back up, it goes from -50 to -45.

1453 R, on 10 June 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

I was responding to McGral's cavalier dismissal of this post:




Which is a concrete, undeniable example of exactly the type of thing I've been telling people is in the process of triggering Piranha, and which Mischief and McGral are both busy saying "Dude, seriously. No one actually wants that."

Rhent wants it. JohnnyZ wants it. The way I hear it (I don't bother with Reddit myself, for reasons of personal mental health) three quarters of Reddit wants it. The wave of mostly nameless players who showed up around Kodiak release and weekend tournament want it. And frankly, I imagine Mischief, McGral, and the others wouldn't really mind much if the KDK-3 was blasted into Tier 6 scrap. Their argument seems to primarily be "Better to overnerf the DakkaBear into pointlessness if they have to than allow it to polarize the game into DakkaBears and Things DakkaBears Eat. Weak 'Mechs nobody bothers with are less harmful to the overall health of the game than drastically overpowered monster machines nothing else can compete with."

Which is why Bishop, myself, and most anyone else who can read the writing on the wall are pretty much already disregarding the KDK-3 as a serious machine, and simply hoping against hope that Jump Bears, Stink Bears, and Sprint Bears don't end up just as ruined as the KDK-3 will.

The reddit % wanting giganerfs is well below 50%, to be honest...some people there were talking about removing quirks, but even then...many others were saying it was fine as it was.

Rhent, on 10 June 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

A KDK can run a 350XL + 4 DHS in the engine + Ferro/Endo + Full Armor
and have: 53 tons pod space + 29 crit slots.+ move at 61 KPH + use clan weapons

The chassis needs negative quirks, preferably applied to its acceleration, deceleration and turning radius to remove about 50-75 engine rating for those characteristics but leave it with the exact same speed for its rating. The KDK-3 needs a bigger nerf than the rest of the chassis. They should leave the weapons and structure component alone for the KDK and instead focus on the main issue maneuverability for a 100 tonner w/ that amount of pod space and survivability.

You have clearly not played them.