1017 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 11 June 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

While those are all legit concerns and the deeper, more interesting game PGI promised us was their position at the time and is now a disposable arena shooter that doesn't mean broken balance is somehow better.

I think you're still missing my point.

Maybe, just maybe, PGI should have first concentrated on building the missing pieces before they and everyone else obsessed excessively with balance. Why? Because you can't balance something properly when major pieces are still missing. You run the risk of re-balancing every single time a missing piece is added to the game.

MWO is a very clear example of that.

Edited by Mystere, 11 June 2016 - 06:06 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 11 June 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

I think you're still missing my point.

Maybe, just maybe, PGI should have first concentrated on building the missing pieces before they and everyone else obsessed excessively with balance. Why? Because you can't balance something properly when major pieces are still missing. You run the risk of re-balancing every single time a missing piece is added to the game.

MWO is a very clear example of that.

Balance failed on several levels.

The first?

Closed Beta, level 1 technology, aka 3025tech.

Had PGI taken the time to nail down their build principles (Linear scale, and best possible hitboxes on every mech), we would have had Hardpoint Inflation and Location of secondary Hardpoints as base balancers for things like superior Hardpoint Location (Rifleman vs Dragon, for instance) or Poor Geometry (Mechs like Dragon or Archer cursed with bad geometry get more hardpoints than mechs with favorable) we would have had a much better starting point.

Mind you, Sized Hardpoints, and certain kinds of equipment locks might also have done quite a bit to help perpetuate Role Warfare and minimize CopyPasta Builds. And of course a more immersive Heatscale and Targeting System, along with functioning crits, would have made large differences.

But no, the first par twas to get the baseline Weapons and Equipment, the 3025tech and have taken the time to fully balance that against itself, with a small, set weapons pool, and the LOCKED it as a baseline. After that, with a non moving horizon to work against, you can start introducing level 2 Star League Tech, and balancing IT around the hardline of 3025 tech.

And from there, the big jump, balancing Clan Tech around that set benchmark. Because as long as that benchmark is itself jumping around, it is literally impossible to balance off of it. And Quirks at that point, used specifically for MINOR flavor or minor fixes for what the basics of Hitbox/Hardpoints and Mobility can't fix, would have been a snap. For anyone semi competent without an agenda. (which has been a large part of the fight over quirks from GO)

That, more than anywhere is where balance crash and burned, and I've been telling the Devs that since June 2012.

If you have no set in stone baseline, you can NEVER have real balance.

And we wouldn't even be having most of these conversations.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 11 June 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

I think you're still missing my point.

Maybe, just maybe, PGI should have first concentrated on building the missing pieces before they and everyone else obsessed excessively with balance. Why? Because you can't balance something properly when major pieces are still missing. You run the risk of re-balancing every single time a missing piece is added to the game.

MWO is a very clear example of that.

Balance 1 to 1 was never on the negotiating table. I actually posted the devs comments to that effect from years ago to Gyrok just the other day.

Balance is messy. Quirks are no substitute for balance and I've said so repeatedly. We had a rough viable max precision alpha of 35-40 for. While, keeping that is what drove ghost heat.

Then we've sailed well past that. PGI has been quite unwilling to rebalance older mechs to the new metrics.

The solution however is not to say "well, **** it! Anything goes! Power creep every new mech baby, make heroes all T1+!"

[Scout Derek]

Since you two can't stop arguing, I'm going to try something else. I hope it works and I hope that if it happens it'll put an end to the both of the two-four of you arguing. That is if I can get it to happen.

[Bishop Steiner]

Procurator Derek, on 11 June 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

Since you two can't stop arguing, I'm going to try something else. I hope it works and I hope that if it happens it'll put an end to the both of the two-four of you arguing. That is if I can get it to happen.

Whatever you got to do. Just tired of unsubstantiated BS being shoveled all over the other KDKs. I freely admit it sort of pisses me off. This nerf everything stuff certainly is pushing my buttons.

So If you have to moderate me, it is what it is.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 June 2016 - 10:30 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Procurator Derek, on 11 June 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

Since you two can't stop arguing, I'm going to try something else. I hope it works and I hope that if it happens it'll put an end to the both of the two-four of you arguing. That is if I can get it to happen.

I'm going to call it good. I'm not really arguing with Bishop - that was never going to change anything. Was just putting my position forward on the value of game balance and tolerance for paying for an advantage. I would say he and I are at very different ends of those spectrums so he makes a good foil for that. Not much I can add as we've moved well beyond going over salient points.

Though I'm in favor of anything on the topic you can do.

[Wing 0]

just lock this ******** thread already derek. reading this idiocy is getting really old right now. 40 pages... what a joke.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 11 June 2016 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'm going to call it good. I'm not really arguing with Bishop - that was never going to change anything. Was just putting my position forward on the value of game balance and tolerance for paying for an advantage. I would say he and I are at very different ends of those spectrums so he makes a good foil for that. Not much I can add as we've moved well beyond going over salient points.

Though I'm in favor of anything on the topic you can do.

well, on this I can full agree with you.

Wing 0, on 11 June 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

just lock this ******** thread already derek. reading this idiocy is getting really old right now. 40 pages... what a joke.

Yes. Because locking a threadnaught on a balance issue is usually the best way to resolve it. Bravo. Threadnaughts tend to be what get's PGIs attention. Even ones with too much bickering. Getting PGIs attention so they can use their actual telemetry to see if the KDK3 is broke as some claim, is still pretty important for balance. And, if people would simply focus on the one model that is potentially OP, the KDK3, we might even find a fix amicable to everyone.

If the bickering bothers you, you have the simple option of not clicking on this topic. Extreme battle of willpower to do, I know, but I have faith you can win that fight.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 June 2016 - 05:41 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 June 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

well, on this I can full agree with you.

Yes. Because locking a threadnaught on a balance issue is usually the best way to resolve it. Bravo. Threadnaughts tend to be what get's PGIs attention. Even ones with too much bickering. Getting PGIs attention so they can use their actual telemetry to see if the KDK3 is broke as some claim, is still pretty important for balance. And, if people would simply focus on the one model that is potentially OP, the KDK3, we might even find a fix amicable to everyone.

If the bickering bothers you, you have the simple option of not clicking on this topic. Extreme battle of willpower to do, I know, but I have faith you can win that fight.

I believe it is a symptom of what you said above about T1 tech never being balanced and left alone, then adding T2 and CT1 to that mix, combined with going with a Rule of Cool for mech sizes and geometry.

Btw, Awesome not getting a resize, just a remodel now? Did I read that right on RB twitter?

[Bishop Steiner]

Afuldan McKronik, on 12 June 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

I believe it is a symptom of what you said above about T1 tech never being balanced and left alone, then adding T2 and CT1 to that mix, combined with going with a Rule of Cool for mech sizes and geometry.

Btw, Awesome not getting a resize, just a remodel now? Did I read that right on RB twitter?

AWS was never scaled wrong. It simply has terrible geometry. Thus, rescaling it would fix little to nothing. A remodel, might make it more durable in total.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 June 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

AWS was never scaled wrong. It simply has terrible geometry. Thus, rescaling it would fix little to nothing. A remodel, might make it more durable in total.

Yeah. I am actually a little excited about that. Might have to pick them up and try some chained PPC if it turns out ok.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

As someone whose first mech was the AWS-8Q (and now has 700,000 XP), I think the size is ok, the shape reaaallly isn't. Take a look at the Victor alongside it. The AWS is really stocky, not huge. (The Zeus is slightly larger than a Griffin, it cheats!!!)

At this point, however, it is actually more pleasant to play than it was pre-Dec patch, the ST heavy hitboxes combined with 35% TT actually makes it a good tanker if you know what you're doing. Even in higher Tiers, your ST goes bust before the CT.

This + the fact that the 8 series gets 300 engine cap which almost forces a STD engine, makes for a better torso twisting experience than, say, a Banshee. You're much less liable to get cored out really early.

The 9M, you can get away with running a really fat XL (375 and above), and mild torso twisting. Just need to remember, funnily enough, to stare.

Afuldan McKronik, on 12 June 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Yeah. I am actually a little excited about that. Might have to pick them up and try some chained PPC if it turns out ok.

The 8Q is currently the coolest running PPC boat in the game. Worth running it if you're a PPC maniac. Personally I do better with lasers, but PPCs ain't bad.

Remember however, 65.3 kph speed isn't exactly going to help you perform as solidly as a PPC marauder or Warhammer, but then again, the AWS isn't a T1/T2 mech now, is it?

The 9M, however, needs to go with all the lasers. ERPPCs run cooler on the 8Q than on the 9M.

Would recommend that you try the trial (not that bad IMO), and pick them up even now if you like it. Just don't expect it to do better than [insert FoTM here].

[Bishop Steiner]

Afuldan McKronik, on 12 June 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Yeah. I am actually a little excited about that. Might have to pick them up and try some chained PPC if it turns out ok.

an 8Q has always been in my Mechbay, since way back in early CB. 300std, 2xPPC (torso) 2xLL (RA) 3xML (torso/head). I eagerly look forward to playing both it and my CPLT-K2, a lot.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 June 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

an 8Q has always been in my Mechbay, since way back in early CB. 300std, 2xPPC (torso) 2xLL (RA) 3xML (torso/head). I eagerly look forward to playing both it and my CPLT-K2, a lot.

The 3025 RPG/TT group I used to play with years ago always had a 8Q. Can't underestimate the power of PPC stagger fired in TT.

The Maelstrom is a mech I would love to see here but so many people would say just to get the Marauders and kit them the same. It would work other than the 375 cap for the Maelstrom. Such fun bringing a ERPPC and a LPL on a 5/8 mech.

[Scout Derek]

Wing 0, on 11 June 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

just lock this ******** thread already derek. reading this idiocy is getting really old right now. 40 pages... what a joke.

That is why I'm going to try something. I'm still working on it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Procurator Derek, on 12 June 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

That is why I'm going to try something. I'm still working on it.

So, punish a legit Topic because people keep trying to ram nonsense agenda down people's throats, or something else in mind?

[Scout Derek]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 June 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

So, punish a legit Topic because people keep trying to ram nonsense agenda down people's throats, or something else in mind?

[Bishop Steiner]

Procurator Derek, on 12 June 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

now the curiosity is killing the Catapult.

[Gyrok]

Fade Akira, on 11 June 2016 - 01:06 AM, said:

What is this leveraging he keeps going on about? Ill address others as he has me on ignore because he can't handle straight up discussion.

There is no leveraging. It moves in and out of cover faster. it turns faster. It does things generally faster.

When i say faster, i mean faster than the other KDK's, and most other assaults in the game. Its not leveraging, again Bishop talks about these things like he feels 90% of the MWO players are imbeciles. It really annoys the crap out of me. He talks about this leveraging like its some masterclass only he knows about.

the reality is, its moving in and out of cover quicker, flanking quicker, pushing quicker, etc etc. Making yourself harder to hit generally. I didn't realise this was all some new tactic, i see people "leveraging" all the time. If the quirks were removed, it would actually affect many people, not just Bishop's perceived inner circle of pilots he thinks are the only good ones in existence.

My vote is nerf the quirks on the KDK3. I have no idea why the KDK3 variant has quirks that the other variants dont. No idea. It already has the best hardpoints. Whether its UAC10s or whatever, 4 x head level ballistic torso mounts are absolutely amazing. That alone almost makes it a superior mech to many others.

The XL400 Wubshee, and any XL375+ BLR called, you missed 2 of the most dominating assaults in the game, and they are significantly more mobile than any KDK (SB, aside...but that has similar issues to splatlas + glass cannon). Especially if we are discussing one that totes enough weapons to get you concerned, and enough ammo to keep working deep into a match.

So, if you are game to nerf the KDK, you surely must be game to nerf the BLRs that go 83 kph, and the wubshee that goes 73-74 kph with pinpoint, ultra short duration laser alphas and big heat caps...right?

If that much mobility is a problem for one assault, it must be for others too, right? We need to be objective...people have said BLRs and Banshees are as strong as the strongest assaults for quite some time...and nobody is fretting over those mechs being OP. So, now that a slower KDK comes along, it is suddenly OP to move at 65 kph like nearly any assault mech has ever, but it is "OK" for all IS assaults not called Atlas/KGC to move that speed still?

[Gyrok]

Fade Akira, on 10 June 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

This point right here, combined with the lore idea that clans have to be superior to be good, is the whole crux of the matter.

Anyone paying attention will tell you for the last 6 months the clans are not on the same page...they are behind IS in terms of power.

If you think I am lying to you...check reddit:

Here is but one example