1017 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

Nice though I find you highlighted one of the flaws with the UAC10 build (though it feels great, which is apparently not allowed)

Capable of high dmg, but sloppy as heck. 1300 dmg is great...but only 4 kills with? Not a knock on you as it mirrored my usual results, in that's a very powerful feeling machine that puts up great dmg numbers, but very inefficient all thing said and done at killing. Even McGrals splash screens he posted were unusually low kills for dmg. Either that or I keep my Kill/Dmg standard unreasonably high. But 1300 dmg SHOULD in most cases net about 6-7 kills with an efficient machine. (obviously we all have those matches where we just can't seem to seal the deal, but I have a lot more of them with my KDK3 than with my KDK4 or SB, both which average lower dmg, but higher kills).

*shrug*

Good machine. Possible that the 3 is too good. If so, still want a fix that will actually "fix" the problem.

Why does the same loadout on the DWF seem reasonable but on the KDK3 seem OP?

Mobility quirks are what allows you to bring the firepower to use on someone. It lets you dance away, the accel/decel quirks being more useful in that context than the twist but twisting is part of it.

Also the KDK3 is a lot more than just the 4xUAC10 build. That's just the most popular because it's the best damage farmer. As a PPC/Gauss poke mech it's a beast too. Have you been watching the tournament?

That's why the mobility nerfs are important. If 4xUAC10s turns out to be too strong it will be on future mechs that are not knuckle-dragging immobile gimps. If the DWF gets a reasonable rescale/rebuild that would suddenly apply there too. I don't know how that will play out though so I don't want to nerf a whole weapon line setup based off one mech, as was done with 2xAC20s back in the days of yore when a 40 pt alpha 'was just too strong'.

Will removing all the quirks be enough to put the KDK3 into parity? For me, yes. If it gets a hitbox fix too. If, beyond that, certain weapon loadouts prove too strong then maybe, maybe we can look at adjusting that weapon loadout. Again though that makes me really really twitchy. We also don't know what Ghost Heat 2.0 is going to look like.

The KDK3 however is too strong with any build. 4xUAC5s and lasers, gauss + ERPPC, I can all but take it around with MGs and just wreck face. Absolutely wreck face. It's too strong because being more maneuverable than the most maneuverable assault + high mounts + powerful, cool running loadouts is an issue. All the other variants rely on arm mounts (which are lower) and hotter loadouts (which are more balanced).

People get over 1K matches in the KDK3 because you can just keep shooting, often at people who can't effectively shoot back.

TTK is already too short. Do you disagree? The only way you're going to extend TTK is dialing back top performers. If the 3M, Atlas and Mauler all get a tiny tune back I wouldn't cry. If the KDK3 is still an absolute beast, just not the best mix of mobility and firepower in the game bar none I'd be happy. Currently though it's flat out power creep when TTK is already too low.

As with the DWF I'm game with dialing back TTK a little bit by marginally reducing the ability to consistently and effectively apply the damage rather than directly nerfing firepower itself.

If nerfs above and beyond removing quirks was suggested for the KDK3 I'd be against that. Anything beyond that would need looked at in terms of the weapon loadout itself. At that point the KDK3 is no more maneuverable, agile, etc. than any other mech with a 375XL engine and good mounts. Shouldn't that be the baseline? Shouldn't that be the ideal? IS mechs get quirks because IS weapons are, stat-wise, inferior in terms of size, tonnage, in most cases range and damage as well.

I'd argue just as hard as I have here against nerfing the KDK3 beyond removing quirks. If it's 'the best option because of high mounts and tech available' but not quirked above and beyond that, well we have a baseline for exactly how good the raw weapons and tech bases are, right? If that's the ideal top of performance we want to balance to, great. Any balance beyond that, as in that viewed as 'too strong' is a product of the weapons and tech themselves not being balanced, not the chassis.

Make sense?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Oh it plays like a AS7-S, the only main difference between how these two play is the approach and positioning before the brawl. Once the brawl or push starts though, they are very similar in play style.

How would fixing hitboxes change that? Suppose your SB can roll damage like an Atlas, just without the structure quirks. Is it better? Worse?

[Afuldan McKronik]

I need to git gud at PPC/Gauss anyways. So this must be the platform to use then yes?

1 ERPPC/MK2 TComp ACH is fun but ineffective.

[Bishop Steiner]

Afuldan McKronik, on 13 June 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

I need to git gud at PPC/Gauss anyways. So this must be the platform to use then yes?

1 ERPPC/MK2 TComp ACH is fun but ineffective.

seems like it is for some maps anyhow. IDK about total effectiveness, but probably what I would run if I was to use a 100 tonner in FW.

Even before all the agility nerfs I found it real feast/famine on the DWF and KGC, but that might speak more about me than the build.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

From what Quicksilver has said, the 2x Gauss/2x ERPPC and 2x UAC10/2x UAC5 seem to be the "pro builds" (unless they have evolved already).

4 UAC10 is still useful, but I think I'm still a fan of the 2 UAC10/2 UAC5 build simply because you can maintain DPS, but I may be a rare case with that one, not really sure since the dakka has never faired the best on Canyon.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

So it sits there and tanks an extra 150 dmg?

Maybe I should've been a bit more clear, the difference between the two is in what you do on approach, both can approach an enemy position from similar distances, the Kodiak is just able to bring its guns to *bear* (sorry) earlier to make up for its fragility, but once it starts brawling, it is an AS7-S that is a bit more maneuverable (speed isn't that big of a deal once you get in the brawl). The other difference is the Spirit Bear spends less time re-positioning to setup for that push, which is what really keeps the Atlas from being as common since it can take too long to shift to a better position to push from basically ruining any opportunity you had.

[Bishop Steiner]

WarHippy, on 13 June 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

KDK-4 is my personal favorite as well. The Spirit Bear narrowly beats out the KDK-3 for second choice primarily because I like how it handles and I have always been a fan of SRMs.

KDK-1 seems solid for the most part, but the KDK-5 I have struggled to find a build I like.

yeah, KDK4...maybe it feeds the purist feel for me more, but it's pretty similar to what I would use in TT (though with MPLs in place of SPLs in TT and a few less DHS). And I do like the Spirit Bear because it feels unique among all the Assaults in how I have to play (at least in PUGlandia) to realyl succeed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 13 June 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

How would fixing hitboxes change that? Suppose your SB can roll damage like an Atlas, just without the structure quirks. Is it better? Worse?

Hitbox change would probably benefit the SB more than any other Kodiak, because it suffers the most from that massive CT when all of your mech is exposed, the pokey Kodiaks benefit less from that because they tend to take ST hits already, especially the ones running PPC/Gauss, and that Gauss loves to blow up with the smallest damage hitting internals.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

4 UAC10 is still useful, but I think I'm still a fan of the 2 UAC10/2 UAC5 build simply because you can maintain DPS, but I may be a rare case with that one, not really sure since the dakka has never faired the best on Canyon.


Maybe I should've been a bit more clear, the difference between the two is in what you do on approach, both can approach an enemy position from similar distances, the Kodiak is just able to bring its guns to *bear* (sorry) earlier to make up for its fragility, but once it starts brawling, it is an AS7-S that is a bit more maneuverable (speed isn't that big of a deal once you get in the brawl). The other difference is the Spirit Bear spends less time re-positioning to setup for that push, which is what really keeps the Atlas from being as common since it can take too long to shift to a better position to push from basically ruining any opportunity you had.

I understand now why I keep getting smashed in the face with a lot of firepower at once. That is what, 50 point FLD with 5 splash damage?

Never having owned or tried a mech with MASC before, does it only affect accel/decel/speed? Or does it affect turning/twisting also?

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

4 UAC10 is still useful, but I think I'm still a fan of the 2 UAC10/2 UAC5 build simply because you can maintain DPS, but I may be a rare case with that one, not really sure since the dakka has never faired the best on Canyon.


Maybe I should've been a bit more clear, the difference between the two is in what you do on approach, both can approach an enemy position from similar distances, the Kodiak is just able to bring its guns to *bear* (sorry) earlier to make up for its fragility, but once it starts brawling, it is an AS7-S that is a bit more maneuverable (speed isn't that big of a deal once you get in the brawl). The other difference is the Spirit Bear spends less time re-positioning to setup for that push, which is what really keeps the Atlas from being as common since it can take too long to shift to a better position to push from basically ruining any opportunity you had.

Makes sense, though it seems once the facehugging starts, the AS7-S's much higher toughness and PP/FLD mix would win out, most times, 1v1, anyhow, since they are not exactly DWFs in terms of mobility, either.

But I could see for overall team play the Spirit Bear being a lot more tactically flexible, especially for offense due to it's mobility advantage primarily and to a lesser degree, the high hardpoint (which still is usually packing a pretty short range gun)

I know I stopped running AS7 and DWF because I got tired of taking all day to waddle to the fight and or getting left to get buttraped by Lights by teammates. I like that the Spirit Bear tends to discourage that.

Afuldan McKronik, on 13 June 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

I understand now why I keep getting smashed in the face with a lot of firepower at once. That is what, 50 point FLD with 5 splash damage?

Never having owned or tried a mech with MASC before, does it only affect accel/decel/speed? Or does it affect turning/twisting also?

10 splash dmg, 5 per PPC. So they hit your ST, for 50, your adjacent arm and CT each take 5 dmg, too. It's mean.

I was in my WHM a couple days back and got synchro cannon'd by TWO differnet Gauss/Peep KDK3s at once..... insta dead.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Afuldan McKronik, on 13 June 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

I understand now why I keep getting smashed in the face with a lot of firepower at once. That is what, 50 point FLD with 5 splash damage?

0-10 damage for splash, but yes, the PPC/Gauss Kodiak is a fun mech to boop people with.

Afuldan McKronik, on 13 June 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Never having owned or tried a mech with MASC before, does it only affect accel/decel/speed? Or does it affect turning/twisting also?

All of the above, but turn/twist you notice less.

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 13 June 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

You're talking about two different things. Gyrok was responding to someone who said the KDK-3 was more mobile than the WubShee, which it is not.

Mobility is primarily affected by top speed, though accel/decel and turn rate do come into play.

Agility is primarily affected by turn rate and twist rate.

The WubShee is more mobile. The KDK-3 is more agile. Which, in both cases, is appropriate for their roles. The KDK-3 is more of a true brawler, while the WubShee is more of a striker/assassin.

No, it's more mobile. 35% faster at getting up to speed and 35% better at stopping short, pivoting 20% better as well with the same 375XL. You'll have 8KPH more top speed if you're running the 400XL but many 3M builds are in a 375XL anyway. Regardless the KDK will get up to speed 1/3rd faster, stop short 1/3rd faster and corner 20% better, give or take. In addition to twisting 35% faster.

You pay 7 tons of weaponry to get those 8 KPH. If I had the same mobility quirks on the 3M I'd say it was a balance issue.

[Bishop Steiner]

Afuldan McKronik, on 13 June 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

I understand now why I keep getting smashed in the face with a lot of firepower at once. That is what, 50 point FLD with 5 splash damage?

Never having owned or tried a mech with MASC before, does it only affect accel/decel/speed? Or does it affect turning/twisting also?

pretty sure just your inline speed/accel. but I don't use it near enough to claim expertise with it. It sure lets you back up fast. In fact, I still forget to use it most times on my Scat.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 June 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

0-10 damage for splash, but yes, the PPC/Gauss Kodiak is a fun mech to boop people with.


All of the above, but turn/twist you notice less.

Plus all that damage being applied at once versus over time, even considering a doubletap uac40 is fairly rapid firing that damage.

I always get frustrated with the PPFLD builds as I tend to forget and get out of poking position with them and go full Rambo. My play style needs improvement still. >

[Felicitatem Parco]

Why do people say the two UAC10 + 2 UAC5 puts more DPS than Quad uac10? Toggling the CUAC/10 like 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 puts out peak DPS with no Ghost Heat, and a CUAC/10 deals 33% more DPS than a CUAC5...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Why do people say the two UAC10 + 2 UAC5 puts more DPS than Quad uac10? Toggling the CUAC/10 like 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 puts out peak DPS with no Ghost Heat, and a CUAC/10 deals 33% more DPS than a CUAC5...

Simple, heat profiles of UAC5s is smaller, and heat does matter, even the 6 UAC5 Whale can overheat, and surprisingly on maps like Caustic even the Mauler can run into heat troubles against PUGs that allow you to shoot for an extended period. Even builds that avoid ghost heat like the old 2 UAC10/3 UAC5 Whale had heat issues.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 June 2016 - 10:05 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

So, people are overheating by triggering GH, and saying that limits DPS.

L2GetGud.

Quad UAC10 will out DPS UAC/5 for days until you kill 2 or 3 enemies. By then you have earned a break to cool down.

You are right, though, that poor pilots will have heat problems with 6x UAC/5 or quad UAC/10. Even the GH avoidance builds are susceptible to GH when you Doubletap at the Wong times.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 13 June 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

So, people are overheating by triggering GH, and saying that limits DPS.

Even without ghost heat, 4 UAC10s has less sustained DPS than 2 UAC10s/5s. You can even double check this against Smurfy if you want since it doesn't factor in ghost heat, granted it doesn't factor in double tap/jams either but the difference will still be in favor of the 2 10/5 build. I believe there was testing around this back when the Whale came out, I think Solahma did it, I'm sure some of the other forumwarriors can dig it up for you if you ask.

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Quad UAC10 will out DPS UAC/5 for days until you kill 2 or 3 enemies. By then you have earned a break to cool down.

In PUGs the quad 10s is better because you will rarely get the coordinated pressure that will not allow you cool down, but things actually get bad for the Quad 10s when facing a coordinated group.

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

L2GetGud.

You are right, though, that poor pilots will have heat problems with 6x UAC/5 or quad UAC/10. Even the GH avoidance builds are susceptible to GH when you Doubletap at the Wong times.

Quite condescending, I'm sure you must be one of the best players in the game then huh?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 June 2016 - 10:19 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Quite condescending, I'm sure you must be one of the best players in the game then huh?

Quad UAC/10 is 16 DPS without DT and jams. Dual 10 and dual 5 is 12 DPS. Add DT and jams, and the 10's still have it until you have dealt 200+ damage. At that time I think you can call it a "full burst" and count your chickens.

And, yes, I am a member of the Uber elite that does not lean on all triggers at all times, so I do not have GH problems with quad UAC/10.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Quad UAC/10 is 16 DPS without DT and jams. Dual 10 and dual 5 is 12 DPS.

YOu forgot that is WITHOUT heat, which when talking about sustained DPS is very important. That is raw DPS that you just listed, which is a worthless statistic.

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

And, yes, I am a member of the Uber elite that does not lean on all triggers at all times, so I do not have GH problems with quad UAC/10.

Not even what I'm talking about at this point, even without triggering ghost heat, 4 10s is on the hot side of Dakka builds because the GH penalty is a minor 12% penalty (unless you trigger ghost heat on the double tap alpha which is around a 44% penalty).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 June 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

YOu forgot that is WITHOUT heat, which when talking about sustained DPS is very important. That is raw DPS that you just listed, which is a worthless statistic.


Not even what I'm talking about at this point, even without triggering ghost heat, 4 10s is on the hot side of Dakka builds because the GH penalty is a minor 12% penalty (unless you trigger ghost heat on the double tap alpha which is around a 44% penalty).

I am not forgetting heat. DPS is a term that is function of facetime. The facetime-applicable DPS for quad UAC10 is higher than the mixed load with UAC5 because you have to deal much more than 200 damage before heat is an issue, and the quad 10s will out DPS the mixed build up to this threshold.

If you require facetime to vastly exceed 200 damage in one burst, then you have very, very stringent requirements of what constitutes DPS.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 13 June 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I am not forgetting heat. DPS is a term that is function of facetime. The facetime-applicable DPS for quad UAC10 is higher than the mixed load with UAC5 because you have to deal much more than 200 damage before heat is an issue, and the quad 10s will out DPS the mixed build up to this threshold.

If you require facetime to vastly exceed 200 damage in one burst, then you have very, very stringent requirements of what constitutes DPS.

I'm going to go out on a limb as an upper echelon Comp Player (vs Forum Warrior), he might be more versed than us on what is effective and what is paper effective. I usually don't like going that route, but this appears to be an area (like many) where the Mechlab and Reality don't see eye to eye.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 June 2016 - 10:55 AM.