110 replies to this topic

[Danjo San]

History repeats itself... We are back where we left at the end of Phase 1.
To you that forgot what the "problem" was back then: Large groups of Mercs all clustering in Jade Falcon drilling through Steiner.
Since then the large mercenary Units have complained about stuff like:

-recruitment cost
-single attack lane
-no voting rights

All were introduced to counter the "effect" of large (super) units clustering.
unfortunately it is not enough to balance population... (i see the shitstorm rising)
I have said this before and I will say it again:

-Units need a cap in size!
-Mercenary Contracts need to be limited

Only then can a more equal balance be achieved. So far all efforts have had no "real" effect. Even a negative modifier for contracts does not keep Mercs from clustering. -50% for going to Jade Falcon during the Event last week. Who cares? Nobody...

It will continue in this direction until PGI actually steps in and draws a line, saying you want to play Merc, fine you should take one of the contracts that are available, once all contracts are taken for a faction you have to go to a different faction to take a contract. Why should the units recieve a cap? Smaller Units are easier to balance, and require more monitoring from the leaders. In a Unit of 300-500 Players spanning all Timezones, how should you as the leader(s) with remove member rights know who is inactive, who is just irregular, etc.
Also if you balance population by "active FW playerbase" and say there are contracts for 300 Mercs available in Faction X and one Unit steps in and grabs the contract but out of their 300 members only 50 play FW, tops... how is that balancing?

Sorry, but saying stuff like "large units do more for FW than all of you together" and "Players would quit if they could not be part of a large unit"... it's BS. Players that play will continue to play, because they like the game, players will still play if there is a cap in size... It is like saying players wont play for falcon if they lose half of the C-Bills they earn... hahaha, They do it right now.
And shoving in KCOM or Evil as arguments against a cap is the same BS. KCOM and EVIL are small and effective Units, They are doing everything right, I have nothing but love for them! But using that as an argument to why units should be large is stupid. you can be small and effective, you just cant zerg planets every hour of all timezones.
Next. Community and Unit are two separate entities. You can have a large community, but dont have to have the same tag or faction. Trust me... I know, my unit has always been part of "communities", multiple units of different factions hanging out together on one teamspeak server, dropping together when applicable, coordinating internal events and such. Saying just because you cant wear the same tag excludes you from being in a larger community is a large pile of BS.

To recap, Large Merc groups, don't care about the "extra" recruitment cost, they don't care about the money they lose when going to a overpopulated faction. The factors PGI introduced to balance don't help. We need a radical solution. It will cause butthurt in some units and in mercs that cant suddenly all cluster in one faction, but in the long term it is the only solution I see.

By the way... KCOM and Evil, I enjoy dropping against you and learning from your tactics and positioning! Thank you for all the matches!

[Ductus Hase]

So your opinion defines "officially"?

My opinion:
In Phase 1 Clanmechs were severely OP - now we do stand a chance. Clanmechs are still more noobfriendly that´s about it.
Thus we are FAR from Phase 1.

The "Big Mercenary Groups" aren´t the problem - it´s population in general and how rewards are handled:

1. Honour and MC
Big Groups got a better chance to tag planets and earn (miserable) rewards.
Suggestion for Improvement:
Every victory should count (Scouting and Invasion seperatly). The tagging should go away and be replaced by a spoiler listing the % of contribution of every unit.
Make a cut at 1% for transparency, easy handling and meaningfulness.

5MC could be rewarded per invasionmatch to players who broke a certain barrier (4+ KMDD or 4+ Kills, 1000+ DMG win or lose for example).
1MC might be rewarded per scoutingmatch to players who broke a certain barrier (4intel gathered + win, or 2+ KMDD for example)
This would encourage players to play FP, and to play good.

2. Faction and C-Bills
The incentives for Mercenaries to fight for small factions are rubbish:
-50% Victoryreward is a joke as long as ingameprofits is were the big C-Bill and LP are.
A Bonus of 100% is nothing, if you can´t build a team,
BORING if you can´t find an enemy.

Those %% need to have an impact to all earnings - this might help.

%% should be connected to populationactivity in FP and should depend on matches played last day during this timezone.




... just my opinion though... nothing official.

[Baulven]

Honestly if the mercs are signing up and it drops below 15% contract the contract should be closed. There is a point when a faction either can't support its army, or they just have enough mercs.

[LordNothing]

i like the finite contracts idea. also factions with low loyalist populations would have a larger number of merc contracts available, and with higher bonuses. i would also cap set unit size limits on the contracts. so a mega unit cant get the last contract for a faction and severly tilt the balance in their favor. if you have 100 active players and the faction only needs 50 to equalize populations, you wouldn't be able to take it. a too large unit might find themselves on the least desirable faction because they are too damn big. they will split up just to get more options.

i wouldn't force breakups of large units but i would strongly incentivize smaller unit sizes. and i would actually provide large units the tools to split up without too much hassle. you hit a button and you get something that looks kind of like create unit, however you also get a roster and can drag and drop pilots into the new unit from the existing one. splitting in this way would waive the recruitment cost for the new unit (and possibly give both units a big bonus for splitting up and making everyone's lives easier). but knowing how long it takes pgi to make a simple interface screen, im not holding my breath.

this is still just a small slice of the things that are wrong with fp though. factions will be equalized, but the lack of modes, maps, good mechanics, etc, the bucket situation, and all the pugs vs unit bs will still remain. it would take nothing short of a complete redesign effort, bigger than all 3 phases put together to fix it, and even then pgi might not produce something that works.

[Daidachi]

If you want to cap contracts by number of active mercs signed up for that faction, you also need to accurately look at the population by who has actually played a FP game in the past 30 days when it comes to the contract calculations.

Your hard-on for large units as the main problem in FP is frankly, tiresome.

Your assumptions that all large units are constantly spamming drops has been shot down conclusively in every single post you make by a variety of people from an assortment of units, and yet you continue to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the evidence.

The fact of the matter is simple - there are a variety of reasons why FP is not engaging to a large amount of the population. These range from the spread of players overall across multiple fronts limiting the number of matches that can happen at once, the lack of tutorial for new players, the generally poor choices of mechs available as trials to new players in certain weight classes, the social interface being so clunky that it's a joke, and the limited, stagnant nature of the maps/game modes themselves representing little to challenge or intrigue many older players of the game.

But hey, let's not bring facts or evidence into this. That'd be logical.

Carrots work better than sticks. You think mercs are a problem? Make being a loyalist attractive to both new players to the mode, and older players who may have maxed out the existing reward system for one or more factions, rather than giving them red headed stepchild incentives.

Edited by Daidachi, 16 July 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[Wing 0]

The only difference between KCOM and EVIL is that EVIL has alt units with alt accounts and also their too full of themselves concerning WinLoss Ratio. Nothing personal but I see a problem with players making that many alts and alt units trying to prove something dumb.

My unit works with KCOM on a daily basis since we play together a lot and some of their players use to play in CSJ faction with us and a few others back in Phase 1 + they were actively playing regardless of the times. Also, KCOM has been in the CJF faction since day 1 of Phase 3 and so have several other units.

[MischiefSC]

Long Tom is a big factor this time. Both imbalance in scouting and the overwhelming advantage LT gives not to mention the underwhelming changes FW 3 brought drove most players to leave. The whole "we want good matches" statement from the bulk of merc units was shown to be false as most just piled to where they would get the most vs pug drops for easy farming.

So now everyone hates FW and we can almost but not quite populate one front.

[Kin3ticX]

you cant point to any one thing and fix CW by changing it


here is the issue with unit caps

there are teams with 400 people that barely even play at all and they wont play if they are capped at 100

Even still, i'd like to see a unit cap of 100 and the let pieces fall where they may but that would have to be in concert with a laundry list of other changes.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 16 July 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

The problem is the same with every type of faction PvP not just here.

A few top rate teams get a roll going, the tag a longs join the same faction to 'be on the winning side' the imbalance gets worse.

limiting size of units won't stop this.

Merc need random encounter events happen to them, which happen the more frequently they switch side in a season, could be a bonus for extended contracts, could be no payment, or even employer back stabbing them, and removing funds.

Being a merc is supposed to be hard, currently they have it rather easier than the rest

[Cold Darkness]

people flock to either rasalhague or cjf simply because it is easiest to get games running this way. it doesnt matter if there is rewards or penatlies. unit size would also not matter, because smaller units would still prefer shorter queues to better payout. and thats a good enough reason. its also the reason why people talk about merging factions for a better gaming experience.

and some people have no better ideas then force splitting the playerbase into more queues so everyone can wait longer. ridiculous.

[Koniving]

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 01:33 AM, said:

-Mercenary Contracts need to be limited

This should have been there from the beginning.

Finite number of contracts allotted by a given amount of per-player-space.

So you might have 1-man units whose contract accounts for 1 man (rather than 1 merc unit).
merc unit with 5 players? Five point contract.

Say there's a limit of say 100 people. Well that's 6 down.

Super unit comes in, has 90 players. Welp that's 96 down, 4 left.

So that's about 3 units, 96 players total out of 100 player-contracts to give.

Meanwhile another faction might have some 60 something small units, total of 91 players, and would still have 9 player-contracts to give.

Edited by Koniving, 16 July 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[AnTi90d]

Koniving, on 16 July 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

This should have been there from the beginning.

Finite number of contracts allotted by a given amount of per-player-space.

So you might have 1-man units whose contract accounts for 1 man (rather than 1 merc unit).
merc unit with 5 players? Five point contract.

Say there's a limit of say 100 people. Well that's 6 down.

Super unit comes in, has 90 players. Welp that's 96 down, 4 left.

So that's about 3 units, 96 players total out of 100 player-contracts to give.

Meanwhile another faction might have some 60 something small units, total of 91 players, and would still have 9 player-contracts to give.

I think 100 is way too low to be functional, but the bones of that system are interesting. If they allowed 500 merc heads to each faction, that would forcibly spread people out.

..but if a unit the size of SWOL tried to move around, there would also need a system to be put into place to increase the contract sizes so they wouldn't be stuck outside of FP.. either that or bust up large units to fit into the system, but that would really piss off some people.

[WANTED]

Yes, I don't care what game it is, you put too many of the best players on one team ( faction ) and they will roll the map, etc. I think PGI can sell the limitation of contracts to the fact that there is only so much supply a faction can support to units even if they could pay them all. This is a time where resources are scarce already ( maybe clans not so much but for game purposes eh ). Just not sure on the way to do this yet, percentage or simple amount of limited contracts to a faction based on population. I do believe 2 systems should be in place, hard limits of some sort and then more rewards for lower population factions. Heck, maybe even use the new supply cache system and make it half price to open or less based on low population. Just throwing out ideas here.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Koniving, on 16 July 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

This should have been there from the beginning.

Finite number of contracts allotted by a given amount of per-player-space.

So you might have 1-man units whose contract accounts for 1 man (rather than 1 merc unit).
merc unit with 5 players? Five point contract.

Say there's a limit of say 100 people. Well that's 6 down.

Super unit comes in, has 90 players. Welp that's 96 down, 4 left.

So that's about 3 units, 96 players total out of 100 player-contracts to give.

Meanwhile another faction might have some 60 something small units, total of 91 players, and would still have 9 player-contracts to give.

AnTi90d, on 16 July 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

I think 100 is way too low to be functional, but the bones of that system are interesting. If they allowed 500 merc heads to each faction, that would forcibly spread people out.

..but if a unit the size of SWOL tried to move around, there would also need a system to be put into place to increase the contract sizes so they wouldn't be stuck outside of FP.. either that or bust up large units to fit into the system, but that would really piss off some people.

Agreed, by making contracts based off of bodies being dragged around between factions you have a more accurate representation of force, so instead of say Steiner gets 10 6 man units and all their contracts dry up at the same rate as 10 100+ man units now it is more proportional and you don't really want super units around because it prevents people from joining a faction. Another thing is it will better reflect the force available to each faction. Yes 100 is too low, but, as an example it is a good start.

I don't know how big it would have to be, but, PGI has the numbers and can figure something out. We don't need constant war everywhere on the map (though that is fun and accurate to the IS at a number of periods) but it would help a great deal at getting the southern houses having stuff to do in more timezones.

[Koniving]

AnTi90d, on 16 July 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

I think 100 is way too low to be functional, but the bones of that system are interesting. If they allowed 500 merc heads to each faction, that would forcibly spread people out.

..but if a unit the size of SWOL tried to move around, there would also need a system to be put into place to increase the contract sizes so they wouldn't be stuck outside of FP.. either that or bust up large units to fit into the system, but that would really piss off some people.

It's an example digit, like a placeholder for "X" to keep the description simple and allow people to follow without requiring more than basic arithmetic.

And yes, I imagine it would. Then again, really large units or rather a single large unit might take up the entire bulk of one faction's force. Given Steam's player numbers and doubling them to assume "This is about how many play the game," we're looking at 12 factions and about 9,000 players worldwide.
750 * 12. So, assume that 200 of each faction are pure loyalists, and then that an additional 100*12 (1,200) don't play FP at all.
450 mercs per faction?

Meh.. 500 seems like a good start. See what happens.

But faction play really requires a massive overhaul.

First off, Long Tom Damage is prohibitive. Between how it aims, to its range, to its damage.
Battletech's Long Tom's maximum damage assuming you caught a maximum Battletech potential of 18 mechs in your midst..
1*30 + 6*20 + 12*10 = 30 + 120 + 120 = 270 damage total. Account for double armor/structure and that's a maximum potential damage of 540 damage.
Furthermore the radius is only 90 meters, with a shot that could be fired up to once every 10 seconds.

Even doubling that double damage (so quad damage; 4x source damage) and doubling its range would net you 1,080 damage TOTAL and 180 meter radius.

PGI is delivering 1,320 damage as a maximum PER MECH.
Which would be fine, if we had an extremely finite amount of them, and each player on a team could fire "1" or "2" Long Tom shots each, deciding where they go through personal spotting. But sans that, a proper Long Tom would be the better route instead of this made-up nuclear bomb they are using.
o.o;;;

Moving on.

----

We need some real objectives. Rescue prisoners, disable communication towers. Destroy turret generators. Etc.
"Destroy generator to Open gate." (Why not hack the gate or blow up the gate?)
"Destroy generator to open armor plating on Gauss cannon." Seriously, would you have an electrically powered door latch that releases the contents of your trunk when it lost power?
"Destroy generator of gauss cannon." Why? In Battletech during the third succession war they stopped destroying factories and planetary cannons, vying to capture them instead for their own use. Also, planetary cannons targeted dropships (and not jumpships) with the intent of shooting them down before they land. The weapon is clearly worthless.

-----

We need some viable tactics beyond "camp behind wall."
For instance, in the first map of Mechwarrior 3050 (SNES), there's a radar station, an Aerotech airport, a series of vehicle and mech bays, prison camp and power pylons protecting the inner gate (from destruction, not from opening).
Vehicle and mechbays. OR in this case "Mech Bays." That is, in-map spawn points that defenders can use to spawn both inside and outside of the "Walls" so that defenders have other viable strategies.

As such, attackers need drop zones that progress closer and closer to the front line as they advance.

-----

Overall, Faction Play needs to have a purpose. Economic or otherwise, we need a reason to do it. A reason to make progress capturing little nodes; something beyond having a goofy little counter going "1." "2." "3." for victories.

Logging on to MWO and into faction play to see my faction got 1 planet is about as satisfying as clicking once on Cookie Clicker. Whoopy-freaking-doo.
We need something more tangible, and no I don't mean "MC" crap. We need it to have a genuine affect on the game as a whole.

Also; tying Quickplay into FP would do wonders for population and results.

[Danjo San]

All I am saying is we gave all the "balance tests" a try and all failed. why not give the cap a try. if it still ends up in a mess, then be it. I have no problem in being proven wrong, but so far all i have seen is the same old... same concerns... same problems, all from day 1... nothing has changed.

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 01:33 AM, said:

History repeats itself... We are back where we left at the end of Phase 1.
To you that forgot what the "problem" was back then: Large groups of Mercs all clustering in Jade Falcon drilling through Steiner.
Since then the large mercenary Units have complained about stuff like:

-recruitment cost
-single attack lane
-no voting rights

All were introduced to counter the "effect" of large (super) units clustering.
unfortunately it is not enough to balance population... (i see the shitstorm rising)
I have said this before and I will say it again:

-Units need a cap in size!
-Mercenary Contracts need to be limited

Only then can a more equal balance be achieved. So far all efforts have had no "real" effect. Even a negative modifier for contracts does not keep Mercs from clustering. -50% for going to Jade Falcon during the Event last week. Who cares? Nobody...

It will continue in this direction until PGI actually steps in and draws a line, saying you want to play Merc, fine you should take one of the contracts that are available, once all contracts are taken for a faction you have to go to a different faction to take a contract. Why should the units recieve a cap? Smaller Units are easier to balance, and require more monitoring from the leaders. In a Unit of 300-500 Players spanning all Timezones, how should you as the leader(s) with remove member rights know who is inactive, who is just irregular, etc.
Also if you balance population by "active FW playerbase" and say there are contracts for 300 Mercs available in Faction X and one Unit steps in and grabs the contract but out of their 300 members only 50 play FW, tops... how is that balancing?

Sorry, but saying stuff like "large units do more for FW than all of you together" and "Players would quit if they could not be part of a large unit"... it's BS. Players that play will continue to play, because they like the game, players will still play if there is a cap in size... It is like saying players wont play for falcon if they lose half of the C-Bills they earn... hahaha, They do it right now.
And shoving in KCOM or Evil as arguments against a cap is the same BS. KCOM and EVIL are small and effective Units, They are doing everything right, I have nothing but love for them! But using that as an argument to why units should be large is stupid. you can be small and effective, you just cant zerg planets every hour of all timezones.
Next. Community and Unit are two separate entities. You can have a large community, but dont have to have the same tag or faction. Trust me... I know, my unit has always been part of "communities", multiple units of different factions hanging out together on one teamspeak server, dropping together when applicable, coordinating internal events and such. Saying just because you cant wear the same tag excludes you from being in a larger community is a large pile of BS.

To recap, Large Merc groups, don't care about the "extra" recruitment cost, they don't care about the money they lose when going to a overpopulated faction. The factors PGI introduced to balance don't help. We need a radical solution. It will cause butthurt in some units and in mercs that cant suddenly all cluster in one faction, but in the long term it is the only solution I see.

By the way... KCOM and Evil, I enjoy dropping against you and learning from your tactics and positioning! Thank you for all the matches!

I love playing KCom and EVIL, best fights in the game....that said, they are small units. They are not small because no one would like to join them, but because they are 'exclusive' units. To put this another way, if you are not already a Tier 1 pilot chances are good you will never EVER get an invitation to either one of these units (lets be fair, even if you are already Tier 1 chances are you will still never get an invitation from these 'exclusive' units).

Then there are [-MS-] / [228]....a couple of the large units you like to rail on in the hopes that PGI will force them to split up. Unlike the other units you have mentioned. [-MS-] / [228] are not 'exclusive', and have many, Many, MANY non-Tier 1 members. They are INCLUSIVE units willing to include, instruct, and or tutor just about anyone who is willing to give/follow orders.

Why do you hate on inclusive units? Again, I love me some KCom and EVIL, and in no way would want PGI to break them up...but they are NOT the type of units that are taking on Tier 5 pilots and training them up (because they are 'exclusive').

Do you REALLY think that the 'best of the best' pilots should all ball up into small, EXCLUSIVE, groups and leave everyone else to 'get gud scrub' without any instruction or tutoring? This is your grand plan to make the game better for everyone? I like you Danjo San, I just don't think you have thought this plan through.

Edited by Armando, 16 July 2016 - 04:35 PM.

[Deathlike]

The flaw still is and will always be that the # of players in a unit doesn't always equate to # of active FW participants.

If FW activity is even, then it's easier to balance. The problem is that while you may have a successful faction, you could have the least amount of FW participation as a whole. This is one clear and obvious thing I noticed with CSJ back in Phase 1, where PGI's attempts to mitigate "success" despite poor FW turnout is to punish the faction as a whole. It doesn't work when you're trying to navigate against bigger active factions over time, in addition to Mercs that occasionally play FW.

[Danjo San]

Armando, on 16 July 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Why do you hate on inclusive units?

Sorry answered to quick... inclusive units vs. exclusive... yeah, I dont hate the exclusive.... inclusive does not require the same tag, your community can be inclusive, power in numbers is what you hide behind...

Edited by Danjo San, 16 July 2016 - 04:36 PM.

[Danjo San]

Armando, on 16 July 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Do you REALLY think that the 'best of the best' pilots should all ball up into small, EXCLUSIVE, groups and leave everyone else to 'get gud scrub' without any instruction or tutoring? This is your grand plan to make the game better for everyone? I like you Danjo San, I just don't think you have thought this plan through.

Haha ... lol, once again you say if a cap is set communities will be exclusive, you cant train new players and cant accept new recruits.... hahahahahahahahaha.
So you are saying, if a unit cap would happen. suddenly there would be a handful of elite units and all others would just stay away from CW, new players would not join, new units would not form hahahahaha...
Only the elite play CW???... yeah right!
There is a bunch more of factors that speak for a cap, but the issue at the moment is that ya'll decided to cluster once again...
You, (the large units) pretend that once a unit has a cap a community dies... its bullcrap³
I have communities in MW:O that spawn factions, timezones, languages, countries etc.
large Units pretend they are the savior of CW... well... they are not... they never have been and never will be

by the way ... Armando I love you too <3