110 replies to this topic

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

I do not hate on them... actually I think they are doing FW the way it should be and I love playing them!
I have nothing but love for the small, exclusive units!

You say you don't hate on inclusive units, but every post you make is BEGGING PGI to break them up. From all accounts, you will not be 'happy' unit PGI forces all Tier 1 pilots to form small, EXCLUSIVE, units leaving all non Tier 1 pilots twisting in the wind....because that is EXACTLY what would happen if PGI followed your plan.

If your goal is to make all Tier 1 pilots who train / tutor / teach STOP training / tutoring / teaching...you plan is spot on. If your goal is to make the game better for non-Tier 1 pilots...your plan sucks donkey balls.

[Danjo San]

Armando, on 16 July 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

You say you don't hate on inclusive units, but every post you make is BEGGING PGI to break them up. From all accounts, you will not be 'happy' unit PGI forces all Tier 1 pilots to form small, EXCLUSIVE, units leaving all non Tier 1 pilots twisting in the wind....because that is EXACTLY what would happen if PGI followed your plan.

If your goal is to make all Tier 1 pilots who train / tutor / teach STOP training / tutoring / teaching...you plan is spot on. If your goal is to make the game better for non-Tier 1 pilots...your plan sucks donkey balls.

I have been doing that since day 1

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

Haha ... lol, once again you say if a cap is set communities will be exclusive, you cant train new players and cant accept new recruits.... hahahahahahahahaha.
So you are saying, if a unit cap would happen. suddenly there would be a handful of elite units and all others would just stay away from CW, new players would not join, new units would not form hahahahaha...
Only the elite play CW???... yeah right!
There is a bunch more of factors that speak for a cap, but the issue at the moment is that ya'll decided to cluster once again...
You, (the large units) pretend that once a unit has a cap a community dies... its bullcrap³
I have communities in MW:O that spawn factions, timezones, languages, countries etc.
large Units pretend they are the savior of CW... well... they are not... they never have been and never will be

by the way ... Armando I love you too <3

Let's say PGI follows your plan....breaks up the 'inclusive units' (big units) by setting a unit cap at 36 players. An inclusive unit like [-MS-] would be broken up into 10 different units ALL of them AT CAP. Every high end pilot would be part of a unit that is unit capped....shut off from helping lower tiered pilots.

The conversation between a lower tier pilot and a high end unit capped Tier 1 pilot:

Lower Tiered Pilot: Wow, you guys are really good...can I join you?
Unit Capped Tier 1 Pilot: Man, we WOULD like you to join and would LOVE to train you up...but unit cap, no room, kick rocks!

^^^^THIS is your plan brought to fruition^^^

[Danjo San]

my unit is inclusive, the community I play in is inclusive, I train new players, conduct 1 on 1 sessions, include irregulars etc ... I know there are many other small units that do the same.
Again ... Unit and Commuity are two separate entities ...

[Danjo San]

just because you wear different tags does not prohibit you from training and including new players...
"hey you guys are really good, can I join you" - "sure we have a large community of several units that drop and fight together"

[justcallme A S H]

Ah the old "Big units are a problem" thread, just dressed up in a marginally different suit.

Look at the unit leaderboards. See that in the top 25 units, ~50% of them are not large units.

Yep, large units are destroying Faction Play blah blah blah.

[Danjo San]

R31Nismoid, on 16 July 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Ah the old "Big units are a problem" thread, just dressed up in a marginally different suit.

Look at the unit leaderboards. See that in the top 25 units, ~50% of them are not large units.

Yep, large units are destroying Faction Play blah blah blah.

Truth may hurt... may seem as bla bla to you...
As you say 50% are not large units so a cap is not that bad right?
A cap would only hurt the units that can only power in numbers... not power in quality....
So what the fuss? Cap size and cap contracts. as you said... 50% wont care...

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

just because you wear different tags does not prohibit you from training and including new players...
"hey you guys are really good, can I join you" - "sure we have a large community of several units that drop and fight together"

Just a reminder: there is no 'solo mode', there are "Quick Play" teams and "Faction Warfare" teams....but they are all TEAMS.

Limiting the size of a team (unit) is forced exclusivity. A team based game that forces exclusivity is a best oximoronic. This game is bad enough as it is.....lets try not to make it WORSE.
_______________________________________________________

All that said, I get where you are coming from...and the issue you have with the game is legit (I agree there is a problem that needs to be addressed). Where we disagree is with the question "what is the best solution".

Would limiting unit size address the problem? I think it would (although to a lesser degree than you think it will)
Would limiting unit size create 'other' problems? Yes, both more and greater.
____________________________________________________

An alternative.....get rid of UNITS.

No Unit tags on the planet...because there are no units.
No "Big Units" units on top of the Unit LeaderBoards because there are no units.
No Units tags next to a pilots name on Loyalist / Merc Pilots LeaderBoards because there are no units.

Faction Warfare LeaderBoards:

Faction Summary
Freelancer Pilots
Merc Pilots
Loyalist Pilots

"Merc Units" and "Loyalist Units" no longer tracked on LeaderBoards

Problem solved: Like your plan, this is NOT a 'silver bullet' (this would create 'new' problems / issues too, just a TON fewer).

EVERYONE is united in having NO unit tag.

To put it another way: If you are going to exclude any ONE pilot (Your plan calls 372-36= 336 pilots in my unit being excluded from my unit) don't half a$$ it....exclude EVERYONE....Anything else is favoritism.

Thoughts Danjo San?

Edited by Armando, 16 July 2016 - 06:00 PM.

[Danjo San]

R31Nismoid, on 16 July 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Ah the old "Big units are a problem" thread, just dressed up in a marginally different suit.

Look at the unit leaderboards. See that in the top 25 units, ~50% of them are not large units.

Yep, large units are destroying Faction Play blah blah blah.

Also yeah, look at the leaderboards, you played 8 matches more than I did. I play loyalist Liao, you play Merc... are you getting more matches than I am ... hmmm I don't think so. I have reached the highest rank in loyalist liao long before phase 3 hit. When What I am saying is. I have seen problems for quite a long time. I have seen players quit because of large units draining incentive, creating imbalance etc. ... PGI sees it, Pgi has introduced measures to "control" it and failed next stop... cap!
This is not about me being salty. I can not emphasize this enough! This is about player quitting because Mercs cluster as in Phase 1, because large units zerg planets, because contract modifiers mean nada etc. etc.
All I want is to foster an enviroment where players of all skills and all backgrounds and all tiers feel welcome and enjoy to play the game... and sorry, but having all mercs cluster in CJF and zerg queues to LT does not help. on the contrary it hurts the entire system. But hey... lets all join large merc groups and cluster into one faction. way to go! it is the way the game should be played and we should be thankful for the large units showing us how to play the game as intended

[Danjo San]

Armando, on 16 July 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

Just a reminder: there is no 'solo mode', there are "Quick Play" teams and "Faction Warfare" teams....but they are all TEAMS.

Limiting the size of a team (unit) is forced exclusivity. A team based game that forces exclusivity is a best oximoronic. This game is bad enough as it is.....lets try not to make it WORSE.
_______________________________________________________

All that said, I get where you are coming from...and the issue you have with the game is legit (I agree there is a problem that needs to be addressed). Where we disagree is with the question "what is the best solution".

Would limiting unit size address the problem? I think it would (although to a lesser degree than you think it will)
Would limiting unit size create 'other' problems? Yes, both more and greater.
____________________________________________________

An alternative.....get rid of UNITS.

No Unit tags on the planet...because there are no units.
No "Big Units" units on top of the Unit LeaderBoards because there are no units.
No Units tags next to a pilots name on Loyalist / Merc Pilots LeaderBoards because there are no units.

Faction Warfare LeaderBoards:

Faction Summary
Freelancer Pilots
Merc Pilots
Loyalist Pilots

"Merc Units" and "Loyalist Units" no longer tracked on LeaderBoards

Problem solved: Like your plan, this is NOT a 'silver bullet' (this would create 'new' problems / issues too, just a TON fewer).

EVERYONE is united in having NO unit tag.

To put it another way: If you are going to exclude any ONE pilot don't half a$$ it....exclude EVERYONE....Anything else is favoritism.

Thoughts?

No I am all for teams ... look at the NFL and their roster... 52 Players. a good point to start from IMHO
Unit tags are "end game content" and create incentive. having an advantage because you triple or quadruple numbers ompared to others, creates a lack of interest with the players the cannot field the numbers to compete because of numbers. not skill, not luck... just numbers!
You have more numbers, you can buy more tickets for "the lottery" more tickets mean better chances to win... simple as that
reduce that to an equal, fair distribution.... equal numbers equal equal tickets... equal same chances. simple math
This equasion leaves ot skill ... it is simple math. more numbers equal higher chance to win! it is the truth and it is a fact you can not deny!
Then coming from this, you have a equal cap, chances are the same for everybody and then it only boils down to skill. not numbers. not being able to field 12 man after 12 man after 12 man for every hour, becaus one unit spans all timezones and such has an advantage over others.
I am advocating balance! Nothing more nothing less... equal chances for all, equal identical incentive for all.... If chances are biased by the choice of joining a large group. (more players = more tickets = better chance of winning) then it leaves the game in a state where, either you get elite, like Evil or Kcom, or you join a large unit and hide your skill in numbers. There is no incentive for small and casual units, yet loyalists

Edited by Danjo San, 16 July 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Players are not interchangeable. They have different things they want and enjoy, different motivations.

Units have different levels of leadership and coordination, different aptitudes for on boarding new players.

The only thing a unit cap would do, at all, is reduce total players in units. That's it.

Someone attracted to Unit A, who has friends in Unit A isn't going to join Unit Q because A is full. A can't just boot someone to make room.

It ignores the fundamentals of human behavior. We gather I to groups based on a number of factors and a big part of that is leadership and presence. Every unit doesn't have identical leadership and presence. As such populations won't distribute evenly. That will never happen.

The real fix? As much hate as this will get -

Loyalists get a 25% LP/CBill bonus over existing default pay. Mercs get absolutely no bonus. Instead they get to move around on Contracts.

Loyalists can vote to reduce their bonus by 5, 10, 15, 20, 25%. This is then goes to mercs. Mercs bid to the contract to take the bonus in part or in whole and the loyalists vote to accept. So Steiner could offer up 15% and CBR1 could take 7% and MS 8% for the length of the contract (probably 2 weeks).

So the best merc units will still get some bonus but most mercs will make way less than loyalists.

The only "bonus" to being a merc is that you can move around. THAT would help a lot. A stable population can be worked around with alliances and natural migration. The current transient one absolutely can not.

Unit caps are irrelevant aside from keeping people from playing with their friends and trying to block the natural results of leadership skills.

[Danjo San]

MischiefSC, on 16 July 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

Unit caps are irrelevant aside from keeping people from playing with their friends and trying to block the natural results of leadership skills.

no that is absolutely not true... We have friends in other units in other factions and I win matches with randoms due to leadership skills. My Unit has ties to Davion units, we are with multiple units on one teamspeak channel, we drop together, we conduct internal events together.
I have friends in Davion, we drop together, we fight each other ... I am playing with my friends, different faction, differnt tag or not... Community and Unit are two different entities!

[Danjo San]

By the way Mischief ... why did you go to Steiner? Why did Operation Gallahd need to start?
Because all the Mercs clustered in CJF.... Nothing more nothing less... Davion went there to "counter" what went wrong in Phase 1. and correct me if I am wrong but did not PGI grant you davion units a slip on loyalty point loss for switching over? Why? because large groups started to cluster....

[MischiefSC]

We went because everyone was quitting and to quote Aylward (who deserves all props for the idea and the huge amount of coordination involved) we wanted to put paddles on FW and try to draw some people back. It worked briefly, then we ran in to LT and every single IS unit except us went to CJF and people just quit in droves.

In no way, shape or form was it driven by big merc units - indeed, if we'd had unit caps there would have been no HHoD to spearhead it.

If it was 20 units going to CJF instead of 7 it would be irrelevant. Your argument requires people to not behave like people to work. It also requires a huge leap in leaders who want to create units.

Unit caps don't matter. The issue isn't groups like CWI, SWOL, HHOD, TCAF. I have no issue with MS being so big - they probably brought more new blood into FW than any other single unit, they had an excellent training program. Many of their people passed through to other units.

The issue is transient instability. You make loyalist populations deeper and eliminate the benefits of bandwagoning and you solve a lot of population issues.

[ccrider]

Mischief, we've been steiner since tuesday and have only seen LT during ceasefire when it randomly appears during an in progress match. Tell anyone you know that its gone and they should come back. We have been really close (7%) to saving the last 2 steiner planets under attack so a few more active players should be enough to make the difference.

[MischiefSC]

ccrider, on 16 July 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

Mischief, we've been steiner since tuesday and have only seen LT during ceasefire when it randomly appears during an in progress match. Tell anyone you know that its gone and they should come back. We have been really close (7%) to saving the last 2 steiner planets under attack so a few more active players should be enough to make the difference.

Yep, it's largely gone and unlikely to return by gentlemans agreement unless things really turn around.

I'm pitching but nobody wants to bat.

Prior to the event we were approximately 20 players short of breaking even based on total available matches. CBR1 would be the pop we needed to break even and possibly even flip one back in NA primetime. Just need to get people to come back....

However the frustration is real. Working on it.

[Starwulfe]

This isn't directed at you Armando, I've just seen various threads repeating the same 'elitist' type language about KCom and it is untrue.

Armando said:

I love playing KCom and EVIL, best fights in the game....that said, they are small units. They are not small because no one would like to join them, but because they are 'exclusive' units.

This is the only statement that has some truth to it. The seven founders that vote on recruits are picky or 'exclusive', but that is only in regards to membership within KCom but is not exclusive in the way most people like to think.

Armando said:

To put this another way, if you are not already a Tier 1 pilot chances are good you will never EVER get an invitation to either one of these units (lets be fair, even if you are already Tier 1 chances are you will still never get an invitation from these 'exclusive' units).

Completely fabricated. KCom has a good number of T1's, but it also has T2's and 3's as well. Tier ranking has never once been a consideration of a candidates entry into KCom. I believe We also have a T4, but would have to take the time to confirm it and as previously mentioned, Tier has had no bearing on membership so I'm not going to bother.
Even though we are picky, we value things like teamwork and following the DC just as much as we do piloting skill.

Armando said:

They are INCLUSIVE units willing to include, instruct, and or tutor just about anyone who is willing to give/follow orders.

Also untrue. We have always welcomed players of all stripes into our channels. (We always play on the ComstarNA TS server for that reason)
We have plenty of members who are happy to help with questions, builds, etc.
The main thing we ask is to be a team player and follow the DCs calls.
We don't enforce specific mechs or loadouts within the unit or on visitors,though we may make suggestions.
Really it's only when someone is disruptive have we had someone leave, but only after talking to them privately about it. Chats very rarely occur, and booting folk is almost unheard of.

Armando said:

but they are NOT the type of units that are taking on Tier 5 pilots and training them up (because they are 'exclusive').

Untrue, as I said before we have welcomed all comers in our drops. Currently I can think two people, one who is brand new to the game, the other who was away for a year (maybe two), both of them dropping with trial mechs.
We have a couple members that were not "good enough" pilots at the time of initial request, but they listened and worked with the team. Over time their skill rose and they were eventually voted in.

We're always on the lookout for new pilots, we're just slow on making decisions because of several past players that we were burned on by deciding too quickly.
Easily the top things we look for are teamwork and professionalism. Right behind it is pilot skill of course, but we would rather take someone who does less damage but shares armor, works with the team, and follows orders than a cowboy who can rack up 4k+ damage.

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

No I am all for teams ... look at the NFL and their roster... 52 Players. a good point to start from IMHO
Unit tags are "end game content" and create incentive. having an advantage because you triple or quadruple numbers ompared to others, creates a lack of interest with the players the cannot field the numbers to compete because of numbers. not skill, not luck... just numbers!

Unit tags are NOT "end game content".

Any pilot can join a unit before ever playing a single match, there are more than a multiple -MS- and MSR pilots who have done just that.. As for "Numbers"....they don't mean anything without WINNING.

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

You have more numbers, you can buy more tickets for "the lottery" more tickets mean better chances to win... simple as that
reduce that to an equal, fair distribution.... equal numbers equal equal tickets... equal same chances. simple math
This equasion leaves ot skill ... it is simple math. more numbers equal higher chance to win! it is the truth and it is a fact you can not deny!

MWO is not the lottery, my chances of winning are not 1 in 175 Million. My chances of winning (W/L ratio) sit firmly at 8.21 and it has nothing to do with luck.

Which brings us back to 'numbers don't mean sh!@t' without WINNING.

As an individual pilot I have won more Faction Warfare matches (279 wins out of 313 matchs played) than the combined numbers off wins from all pilots from any single unit outside of the Liao's Top 7 Units:

1) 18.196 wins
2) 4,823 wins
3) 1,956 wins
4) 790 wins
5) 404 wins
6) 397 wins
7) 326 wins
*) ME - 279 wins
8) 251 wins
9) 177 wins
10) 149 wins
11) 149 wins
12) 121 wins
13) 113 wins
14) 103 wins
15) 92 wins
16) 82 wins
17) 71 wins
18) 71 wins
19) 67 wins
20) 62 wins

I am a Tier 2 'Scrub', yet my W/L ratio is x4 greater than the Number #1 Top Liao Unit's. Do you think forcing me to exclude people from my unit is going to make that number go up or down???

I have a friend who is a founder and when we meet online he was a Tier 5 pilot...from game settings, to mech load outs, to situational awareness Tier 5 pilot. Since that time and with much coaching that friend has worked hard to correct habits both bad and old and is currently on Tier 3 pushing REALLY CLOSE to Tier 2 (Now has a 1.68 W/L ratio in FW).

I have another friend who is now and always has been a Tier 1 pilot....from game settings, to mech load outs, to situational awareness Tier 1 pilot. He is one of my oldest friends in the game (now has a 5.66 W/L ratio in FW).

Which one do I exclude from my forced 'splinter unit'? What psycho game development company would make it's players made such a choice?

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

Then coming from this, you have a equal cap, chances are the same for everybody and then it only boils down to skill. not numbers. not being able to field 12 man after 12 man after 12 man for every hour, becaus one unit spans all timezones and such has an advantage over others.

Its not skill or numbers.....its WINS.

From the above example my Tier 1 friend with the W/L ratio of 5.66 is a million times more skilled than I am, but I win more games. Why...because I always play the team based game as a team (with 6+ member per drop) and he enjoys playing the 'pick up guy' roll from time to time.

Forcing me to exclude teammates from my 'splinter unit' will end with -MS- still sitting #1 on the LeaderBoards and every unit outside the top 10 units dropped 5-10 spots on the boards. You will not only have excluded more teammates from each other....you will also exclude units who are now listed in the top 20 for the LeaderBoard top 20.

Danjo San, on 16 July 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

I am advocating balance! Nothing more nothing less... equal chances for all, equal identical incentive for all.... If chances are biased by the choice of joining a large group. (more players = more tickets = better chance of winning) then it leaves the game in a state where, either you get elite, like Evil or Kcom, or you join a large unit and hide your skill in numbers. There is no incentive for small and casual units, yet loyalists

Balance? you want BALANCE? I give you balance:

Every pilot drops in a stock HBK-4SP PERIOD, no skill trees, no modules. Every pilot. Ever game. For ever.

^^^^ THE ONLY "BALANCE" POSSIBLE ^^^^

[MischiefSC]

Good leaders coach and develop other leaders.

The best "exclusive" units being mentioned have a well earned reputation for helping pug teams win matches by solid pugbossing. They are also universally happy to drop with anyone who asks and share what they know.

Aside from comp teams not wanting to share exact comp strats for comp play with each other I've never encountered a good team that wasn't absolutely happy to share what they know and help other people play better.

Some big units train and onboard new players all the time, others focus on keeping a tight team of friends to keep each other motivated. All of them are happy to share those skills in my experience even if they don't share their tag.

[Armando]

Starwulfe, on 16 July 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

This isn't directed at you Armando, I've just seen various threads repeating the same 'elitist' type language about KCom and it is untrue.

It is not my intent to paint KCom as 'elitist'...nor do I think KCom are 'elitists'. The best way I could describe my feelings about KCom would simple be:

The best example of teamwork in the game.

A true and honest pleasure to drop both with and against!

As for "Elitists".....I think last of the true "Elitists" died with the old school [Lord]'s, scattered and without [Lord] tags as they may be...and even they are far more respectful to pugs now. Then there is also Danjo San who is working hard to bring "Elitism" back (putting hard, 'small', limits on unit size) but I think his heart is in the right place.

Edited by Armando, 16 July 2016 - 09:22 PM.