77 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Is it just a matter of bad hitboxes and lack of quirks, or are there some other issues?

I don't own it, so I don't understand why everyone dropped it almost immediately after release. Even though the meta has shifted to favour SRM-boating and SRMs+lasers (in addition to other builds), it's commonly regarded as a terrible mech.

Good hardpoints, good engine cap, even an ECM variant. I don't quite remember the hype during the pre-order phase, but I do seem to recall that a lot of people were excited about the prospect of SRM-boating.

What went wrong here?

[Sader325]

It's not actually. It's perfectly fine.

Try these builds.

If you're not scoring solid 500+ damage games with those builds then its pilot error not the mech.

Edited by Sader325, 26 May 2016 - 04:07 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm for a SRM brawler it has to be though or mobile - and as it seems the Archer can't do both. Maybe the missile doors is another issue

I didn't run Archers (collectors) simple because the heavy queue was so crowded.
My only run with the Archer was the Tempest as - mini ECM Thug (was great until i ran dry - and a then single PPC is a poor weapon to keep a Hankyu at bay)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 May 2016 - 04:08 AM.

[Sader325]

The tempest is a pile of trash though.

[STEF_]

Alistair Winter, on 26 May 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

What went wrong here?

I remember the hype. But only due to nostalgia, tho...
What went wrong is its quiks, because hitboxes are bad, hardpont locations are bad.


edit: forgot to say, I don't have any Archer. But I manage to kill a lot of them

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 26 May 2016 - 04:12 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

I didn't buy it, mainly because the crotch level cockpit really puts me off - i dont think any mech in the game has a more poorly positioned cockpit. Yay for being shot by stuff you cannot see?

[Anunknownlurker]

I have the Archer but only play 2 - Tempest and 5W - as other IS heavies do things better in my view. The Tempest because of ECM is a pretty obvious choice (I run various builds depending on mood but 3 LPLs is fun!) and the 5W simply because of 9 missile points (I run 5 LRM5 + 4SRM4).

Is the Archer bad? No, I don't think so; is it good? Not particularly. I think it is a fine example of PGI "getting it right"; a new mech which isn't overpowered but also isn't totally DOA.

@Sader325 - I am not sure "if you're not scoring x damage" is a particularly helpful metric. Different pilots suit different builds and you are a pretty decent pilot!

Edited by Jimmy DiGriz, 26 May 2016 - 04:13 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Karl Streiger, on 26 May 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

Hm for a SRM brawler it has to be though or mobile - and as it seems the Archer can't do both. Maybe the missile doors is another issue

It seems like it could do both (on paper anyway). It's 70 tons which is on the heavier end of the Heavy Mech spectrum and it can run 80+ kph boating some serious SRM firepower. Plus I am pretty sure the missile doors don't actually transfer damage to the side torso.

It looks like it should be able to pull of SRM duty pretty well. The only thing I could see holding it back is if the hit boxes were unfavorable.

Even then, you would think it would be popular for LRMs at least.

[xWiredx]

I like my Archers, but they're not super competitive because they aren't mid-range mechs like most of the rest of the meta. They don't rely on ballistics to do quick front-loaded damage nor do they rely on a massive armament of lasers to do a poke-n-hide. If I recall correctly, they don't really have the quirks that make them as durable or cool-running (relative term) as other mechs. There's also the stigma that people that use LRMs are going to be shouted down in chat by their own teammates for 'not helping' or whatever.

[El Bandito]

The 5W is basically a superior A1 in terms of lurming. As I loved the A1, I love the 5W. NARC + 8 LRM5s.

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 26 May 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

The 5W is basically a superior A1 in terms of lurming. As I loved the A1, I love the 5W. NARC + 8 LRM5s.

Oh...btw NARC doesn't work for SRMs doesn't it?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Karl Streiger, on 26 May 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

Oh...btw NARC doesn't work for SRMs doesn't it?

I don't think so. SRMs are dumb fire. Heck, even SSRMs get their boost in performance from BAP.

[Karl Streiger]

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 May 2016 - 04:29 AM, said:

I don't think so. SRMs are dumb fire. Heck, even SSRMs get their boost in performance from BAP.

But SRMs got the Artemis Guidance System - or in other words SRMs are supposed to have the same guidance as LRMs or otherwise LRMs have the same guidance as SRMs.

- NARC for SRMs would be a very great addition. Speaking of SRM bombs with >4 SRM racks

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 May 2016 - 04:40 AM.

[Jetfire]

It isn't bad at all. I can do very well in it. It just isn't the meta mech of the hour. You have to remember if in MECH A you can average 3 kills 6 assists, 750 damage and in MECH B you can average 4 kills 5 assist, 780 damage... then you are going to shift away. I am not saying that is the actual gap, but that is why even good and great mechs get abandoned for META mechs.

Even the mechs I absolutely cannot stand I can get 60+% of the performance of a similar tonnage META out of it.

When you see players finishing with less than 100 pts of damage... that is not the mechs fault in the least.

[Malleus011]

Two main reasons.

The Archer can't compete as a laser/SRM brawler because the geometry just doesn't make it as survivable as other designs. It's handicapped as a close-in fighter by the look of the 'mech itself. Couple that with hardpoints that aren't ideal, and you have a 'mech that doesn't operate very well in the current meta. Yeah, you can try to stack LLs or LPLs on it, but why take an Archer when you can take a Black Knight?

Second reason - the Archer is actually intended to be an LRM carrier, and in that role, it's geometry wouldn't matter so much. Sadly, LRMs are in a suboptimal state (see this thead for a long discussion, if you haven't already: http://mwomercs.com/...the-lrm-system/) and PGI has done nothing to remedy that. The 5W can at least boat large numbers of LRM5s, which allows it to carry a niche role as a harassment bombardment 'mech, but the 'big boats' - the 2R and Tempest - don't have enough hardpoints to use the smaller and hands-down-completely-better LRM racks. So they can't really perform their primary role well due to terrible LRM mechanics. They might've alleviated this by quirking the various Archers to make the fat racks not entirely wastes of tonnage, but for some reason they underquirked Archers.

So the 'mechs are left unable to properly perform their primary role as an LRM bombardment vehicle (and there are at least three heavies that are superior to the Archer in this role, to say nothing of the HBK-4J), and without the geometry and quirks to inherit a seconday role as close-in fighters or laser boats.

PGI did a good job with the Marauder and Warhammer, creating decent, reasonably balanced chassis. The Rifleman was about as good as a 60 ton glass cannon was ever going to be, and has a role there. They failed to make the Archer a viable chassis and missed the opportunity to reform the weakest major weapon system in the game. Pity.

TLDR: They have bad brawling geometry and LRMs suck as a weapons system. Also poor quirks.

[Jetfire]

Karl Streiger, on 26 May 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

But SRMs got the Artemis Guidance System - or in other words SRMs are supposed to have the same guidance as LRMs or otherwise LRMs have the same guidance as SRMs.

- NARC for SRMs would be a very great addition. Speaking of SRM bombs with >4 SRM racks

SRM's are neither Dumb Fire nor are they Mech guided like LRMs. SRM's are self guided. So while BAP should not affect them as those are sensors fed into the mech which is not guiding the missiles they could logically home to a NARC beacon. It would be interesting if SRM's would home on NARC'd mechs without a lock sort of like an SSRM but without needing to get the target lock up front.

Artemis works on SRM's because it paints the target in IR for the SRM's to track better. Likewise SRM's could be made to track tagged targets as if they were SSRM's.

Edited by Jetfire, 26 May 2016 - 04:55 AM.

[Murphy7]

Archers are a strange phenomenon. The hitboxes are easily understood and separated, making it very easy to take a side torso, similar to the Mad Dog in that respect. XL engines are warranted to get the best mobility and firepower out of the hardpoints available, but that makes these mechs very fragile.

But more of the problem comes from LRMs - LRMs aren't great, for reasons that befuddle and annoy me the LRM 5 rack is the supreme leader of LRMs, and the Archers lack specific quirks to make the best use of the giant LRM racks that are their signature weapons.

SRM boating can be done and done well, but with not much in heat quirks, the Archer really lacks the heat endurance to brawl effectively, and lacks the speed to hit & run.

The Archer isn't bad, it just isn't good and seems ill suited to it's role from lore, and is merely OK at a few different MW:O roles where other mechs/chassis excel at any role the Archer would try to fill.

[Otto Cannon]

The problem is simply that the Archer is a specialist LRM mech, but the quirks make other mechs better at that job.

Used in other roles, the combination of vulnerable hitboxes with extremely low cockpit view and extremely high visibility to the enemy because your flaps stick up above cover mean that it's also outclassed by most other mechs with non-LRM builds.

It can be used successfully, like any other mech in the game- but that doesn't change the fact that it's objectively badly quirked and thus less popular than it should be.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 26 May 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

Is it just a matter of bad hitboxes and lack of quirks, or are there some other issues?

I don't own it, so I don't understand why everyone dropped it almost immediately after release. Even though the meta has shifted to favour SRM-boating and SRMs+lasers (in addition to other builds), it's commonly regarded as a terrible mech.

Good hardpoints, good engine cap, even an ECM variant. I don't quite remember the hype during the pre-order phase, but I do seem to recall that a lot of people were excited about the prospect of SRM-boating.

What went wrong here?

Bad hitboxes for a brawler, no jump jets for getting into brawl.

It seems to be popular with the LRM-crowd.

[TercieI]

I don't think they are awful, just not outstanding. We have this fallacy that great and trash are the only options, when a lot of mechs are ok. I think it's ok. Just because of other focus, I only ran mine on Alpha lance weekend, but they all did quite well for me with limited skills (0 LRMs). So partly it's a victim of Internet hyperbole, IMO. Comp worthy? No. Trash? No.

Edited by TercieI, 26 May 2016 - 05:53 AM.