45 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Thread titles. I want to jump, yo! :0

Just in time for the Viper release, too! I want to reach orbit!

On a less tongue in cheek note, I think some mechs could really use it. For example, the Shadow Cat and Highlander (lowlander cuz it can't go up).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Shadow Cat and Viper won't need JJ buffs because they actually have good JJs. Class IV JJs (aka medium mech JJs) are actually in a solid place outside maybe generating too much heat and should really be the model for all other JJs.

I'm also not sure how I feel about the fact that the Viper can out jump the Spider without having to spend tonnage on 4 extra JJs to match the 12 the Spider can mount despite being the heavier chassis. Part of the problem imo is the class of JJs has a larger effect than it should. There should not be as stark of a difference between 35 tonner JJs and 40 tonner JJs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 May 2016 - 08:51 AM.

[Felio]

The SHC jumps as well as any other medium with six jets.

The Class I jets used by anything 85+ tons are pretty terrible, though.

[Sader325]

Clearly you don't understand the game enough to realize that Medium Jump jets are actually extremely powerful compared to, Lights, Heavies and Assaults.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

Shadow Cat and Viper won't need JJ buffs because they actually have good JJs. Class IV JJs (aka medium mech JJs) are actually in a solid place outside maybe generating too much heat and should really be the model for all other JJs.

I'm also not sure how I feel about the fact that the Viper can out jump the Spider without having to spend tonnage on 4 extra JJs to match the 12 the Spider can mount despite being the heavier chassis. Part of the problem imo is the class of JJs has a larger effect than it should. There should not be as stark of a difference between 35 tonner JJs and 40 tonner JJs.

I'd probably choose to make the different class JJ do different things.

Light mechs might get some airborne strafing, turning, and better all around control. Mediums might retain their superior jump height and the ability to turn while jumping. Class 3 JJ might jump as high a class IV JJ but not be able to turn. Class 2 JJ might have decent jump height but forced forward thrust. Class 1 JJ should probably give high initial thrust for a fast rise but have higher fuel consumption and allow for forwards thrust as an option.

I'd also suggest that each JJ let your mech jump at least half as high as your mech is tall buffing the taller JJ equipped mechs like the Highlander and Treb.

[Snowbluff]

Sader325, on 26 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Clearly you don't understand the game enough to realize that Medium Jump jets are actually extremely powerful compared to, Lights, Heavies and Assaults.

Shadowcat is below par and most certainly could use something more in exchange for all of the locked equipment. The MASC buff helped, so naturally more mobility by unnerfing jumpjets would be good. Or do you not understand the English language to understand what I meant? Or are you just not able to see anything with your beady, atrophied eyes? Because there is definitely a mech heavier than medium in the OP. Or do you just not know the game well enough to know what class a Highlander is?

[Karl Streiger]

Hey you can't propose to Buff the class IV when they are already on top - on the otherside it wouldn't harm the others when the best get better.

Anyhow we can't make Class I as efficient as Class IVs so we need to alter the fuel.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 May 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[Sader325]

Snowbluff, on 26 May 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Shadowcat is below par and most certainly could use something more in exchange for all of the locked equipment. The MASC buff helped, so naturally more mobility by unnerfing jumpjets would be good. Or do you not understand the English language to understand what I meant? Or are you just not able to see anything with your beady, atrophied eyes? Because there is definitely a mech heavier than medium in the OP. Or do you just not know the game well enough to know what class a Highlander is?

Shadowcat jumps perfectly fine.

Edited by Sader325, 26 May 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Snowbluff]

You're going to love the Viper. And I've seen those videos already, and you know I own the Shadowcat. Literally the only word you read in the OP what Shadowcat. You didn't read my post either. I don't know how anyone can expect to engage with you on an intellectual level. :l

Karl Streiger, on 26 May 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Hey you can't propose to Buff the class IV when they are already on top - on the otherside it wouldn't harm the others when the best get better.

Anyhow we can't make Class I as efficient as Class IVs so we need to alter the fuel.

Class IV would probably get the least buff. Honestly, Class V should have the same performance as IV at least.

Wait, what? Doesn't a Class I weight like 4 times as much as a Class IV? That's what I don't use my KDK-2 at all. D:
It doesn't make much sense, either. It's a Jumpjet for mechs twice the size, but weighs 4 times as much for what seems like much less performance per ton.

Edited by Snowbluff, 26 May 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Tarogato]

Snowbluff, on 26 May 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Shadowcat is below par and most certainly could use something more in exchange for all of the locked equipment. The MASC buff helped, so naturally more mobility by unnerfing jumpjets would be good.

Actually, the Shadowcat is perfectly fine, aside from the fact that there are only two reliably viable builds on it (LPL or UAC/10) and anything else is either risky or just subpar. And it's one of the best jumping mechs in the game already, I'm perfectly happy with mine.

[Jables McBarty]

Karl Streiger, on 26 May 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Hey you can't propose to Buff the class IV when they are already on top - on the otherside it wouldn't harm the others when the best get better.

Anyhow we can't make Class I as efficient as Class IVs so we need to alter the fuel.

Snowbluff, on 26 May 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

Wait, what? Doesn't a Class I weight like 4 times as much as a Class IV? That's what I don't use my KDK-2 at all. D:
It doesn't make much sense, either. It's a Jumpjet for mechs twice the size, but weighs 4 times as much for what seems like much less performance per ton.

It's 3 tons/1 slot, but yeah, isn't the idea that you pay extra in tonnage to get the same effect as Class IV?

I would understand why equipping Class IV JJ on a 90-tonner would perform like ****, but Class I are BUILT for 85 and up, so....maybe they should be functional?

[Mister Blastman]

Two things must happen OP:

1. Assault jumpjets are FIXED

2. All non-jump jet 'mechs have drastic reductions or removal of their terrain penalties so they can walk up/down hills much faster than their jump jet counterparts.


Do both and you have a balanced, more fun experience for everyone.

[Snowbluff]

Mister Blastman, on 26 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Two things must happen OP:

1. Assault jumpjets are FIXED

You don't think they function at all? Well, I can't disagree. I think Heavy Jumpjets need some tweaking too.

Quote

2. All non-jump jet 'mechs have drastic reductions or removal of their terrain penalties so they can walk up/down hills much faster than their jump jet counterparts.

Interesting. It should be tweaked a bit for everyone (assaults tripping on rocks, etc), but Jumpjet mechs have to pay weight for that capability. Additionally, that would mean people who have mechs that can run jumpjets, but don't use them, get penalized.

[Gas Guzzler]

Class 1-3 JJs need help more than anything else. Class 5s are the runner up.

[Mechteric]

It doesn't need to be about reaching orbit, just let me jump a measly 50 meters (lets just say 2 Atlases stacked on top of each other I think) in under a second. It can take something like 5 seconds to do that currently and it's just awful, both in combat and even when not under direct engagement.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 26 May 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Snowbluff, on 26 May 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

You don't think they function at all? Well, I can't disagree. I think Heavy Jumpjets need some tweaking too.

Interesting. It should be tweaked a bit for everyone (assaults tripping on rocks, etc), but Jumpjet mechs have to pay weight for that capability. Additionally, that would mean people who have mechs that can run jumpjets, but don't use them, get penalized.

I think it is a fair tradeoff. If you take a jj-capable 'mech but don't run jets, why are you taking the 'mech to begin with?

The problem we ran into a few years ago was that the jump jet 'mechs were dominating the non-jj 'mechs and the terrain penalty was a huge factor in preventing the non-jj 'mechs from closing the distance rapidly to inflict hurt upon the jumpers.

Now the jumpers can't jump as fast or as often and likewise fire as much due to the heat penalty--if we remove the shackles the non-jj 'mechs will be right back where they were before.

And here's the kicker... BEFORE the terrain movement penalties were implemented in the winter of 2013 (I think it was around March of that year), the non-jj 'mechs could go over hills and obstacles and rip through the battlefield which prevented range 'mechs from staying alive long enough to poke and snipe (due to SRMs being so effective up close).

A variety of things happened in a short period of time which lead to the jump-jet PPC sniper meta:
a. Terrain penalties
b. SRM nerfs
c. PPC buffs

It was a nightmare period of time.

So we must be careful. I think jump jets in Assault/Heavy 'mechs are way too weak. The half charge up rate really hurts them as well as the heat penalty--but jump sniping is still useful if you could hop up faster and more often for burst damage before you have to wait to cool off.

To counteract this--the cooling period, removing terrain penalties (or significantly reducing them) in those non-jj 'mechs would give them the ability to close and counterbalance the jj improvements.

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

Shadow Cat and Viper won't need JJ buffs because they actually have good JJs. Class IV JJs (aka medium mech JJs) are actually in a solid place outside maybe generating too much heat and should really be the model for all other JJs.

I'm also not sure how I feel about the fact that the Viper can out jump the Spider without having to spend tonnage on 4 extra JJs to match the 12 the Spider can mount despite being the heavier chassis. Part of the problem imo is the class of JJs has a larger effect than it should. There should not be as stark of a difference between 35 tonner JJs and 40 tonner JJs.

"Hmm. Medium JJs are a bit too strong. We should do something about that"-Evil Lair of PGI a.k.a. the basement of PGI's headquarters.

[Jables McBarty]

I wasn't around for the Poptart meta, but I've heard enough to understand why it wasn't so great.

The way I see it, we have several different dials we can tweak:
-Jump height
-Jump Speed
-Conservation of momentum
-Fuel recovery speed
-Heat

As someone who runs mostly lights and assaults with JJ (SDR and JR7 and HGN-IIC), my primary problem is assault jump height.

I can't get much air in my jenners, but that's because I put that weight into engine and weapons--the Spider has more tonnage to devote to JJ and it can get some air.

But in an assault (we'll go with the HGN-IIC), the 3 tons is only worth it to get over obstacles. I've ran several builds with 3 JJ (9 tons) with the idea that it can at least let me get around--say up from the Canyon Network floor, or onto a two-story building in Mining or River City (these examples are arbitrary and drawn from memory). But most of the time I fail these jumps the first three attempts; after that I either give up or manage to find some piecemeal way of skipping up there. And of course by the time I let the JJ recharge, try again, fail again.... I could ahve just walked around and saved time.

The point is, I'd like to see useable assault JJ without repeating the Poptart days of yore. How does this sound:

-Increase the jump height for assaults
-But dramatically decrease the jump speed.

You still rise at the rate of the Hoverjet, but you can go higher. We'd have to decrease the rate at which fuel burns/increase the "max fuel."

This at least gives you the ability to position better, making the 9 tons of JJ worthwhile. While it might bring back a bit of poptarting, the idea would be that you are moving slow enough that OpFor can see you jetting up. it's not an up-and-down thing, more like an up-up-up-up-up-can I? Yes! Fire! Down-down-down type of thing.

Then we use heat generation or cooldown to tweak it. Too much PPC poptarting? Up the heat from JJs. Doesn't even address the momentum/airborne mobility aspects because it doesn't need to.

Otherwise I do like Narcissistic Martyrs suggestion that different classes of JJ do different things.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 May 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

Shadow Cat and Viper won't need JJ buffs because they actually have good JJs. Class IV JJs (aka medium mech JJs) are actually in a solid place outside maybe generating too much heat and should really be the model for all other JJs.

Sader325, on 26 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Clearly you don't understand the game enough to realize that Medium Jump jets are actually extremely powerful compared to, Lights, Heavies and Assaults.

But there is that one wonderful perch which I just can't reach. It's the perfect place to <classified>.

[Mystere]

Sader325, on 26 May 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

Shadowcat jumps perfectly fine.

And yet you totally ignored the Highlander.