36 replies to this topic

[StumbleBee]

Why do so many meta builds include only one jump jet? It seems useless, but obviously I'm missing something.

[Spleenslitta]

They use it for making jump jet assisted turns. Also helps for climbing hills that are just slightly beyond the capability of your mech.

[ZeProme]

It's just more flexible with a JJ. You might need it for cresting over tough hills. Besides, 0.5 tons per one isn't hefty compared to it's utility use.

[TercieI]

ZeProme, on 27 May 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

It's just more flexible with a JJ. You might need it for cresting over tough hills. Besides, 0.5 tons per one isn't hefty compared to it's utility use.

Well, it's up to 2 tons depending, but one allows you to jump-turn and get over small rocks (yes, that's a real issue) as well as scale tougher inclines. For actual jumping, it takes more, depending on weight class/mech weight.

[Bud Crue]

Honestly, I think it is because in most cases 1 is enough to provide a wee bit extra mobility to get around terrain you otherwise might get stuck on or climb a hill, etc. In lights, 1 is enough to get up on most walls in mining colony, and many other map elements. Much more than that single jet and the cost benefit of that occasional need to jump up on a ledge vs the potential to increase your alpha with say another ML, or increase your cooling by adding another heat sink, or protection by adding some armor, or even switching to a slightly larger engine for more speed.
When you make those comparisons, the extra mobility provided by a the additional jump jets just isn't worth it most of the time.

In other words, you are almost always better off spending weight on anything other than jump jets. There are notable exceptions (dedicated builds for getting on top of the vitric forge wall, etc.), but more often than not, jumping is just another way to expose yourself to fire.

[Spleenslitta]

Bud Crue, on 27 May 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

There are notable exceptions (dedicated builds for getting on top of the vitric forge wall, etc.), but more often than not, jumping is just another way to expose yourself to fire.

This sums it up pretty nicely but there is a couple more exceptions.
There are the reaaallly steep places on mountains such as alpine. I love playing MWO version of mountain goat simulator.
Shortcuts. There are some places where 3-4 or even more JJ's are really handy to take shortcuts. I use shortcuts for long relocations after firing.

[Jables McBarty]

What Bud said--given the current state of JJ, it's a pretty steep curve of diminishing returns to having more than one.

That current state is "hoverjets"--not much more than something to get you over small ledges, turn faster, and prevent leg damage after a fall.

I've ran max JJ on my Jenners, and ultimately the difference in maneuverability is so miniscule that it's better to put that tonnage/slots towards weapons or HS.

One of the few examples of a "good" JJ build: ECM poptarting PPC Spider

Edited by Jables McBarty, 27 May 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

it completely depends on what you want the jets for, PGI have foolishly implemented a system where 1 jet gives you a turn speed advantage ^{(I think it should be that jets give no turn speed boost, or failing that a scaling boost starting with 2 jets for a small amount of airborne agility and more jets giving more agailty)}

if I take jets it is because I want to get over obstacles or reach areas most Mechs cannot, I run near max jump jets on a Spider 5V and it gains altitude so much faster than other Mechs that I have been accused of cheating, what a surprise that 11 Jumpjets gives you altitude a lot faster and far higher max altitude than 6, six jets will get you onto the high platforms on bog from ground level, 12 will get you up there quickly with plenty of fuel left.

the whole hoverjet complaints are usually from people who pack 1-2 jets on a heavy/assault ^{(unfortunately the Highlander can only take 3 and the heavier the Mech the less the jets seem to do despite the fact that an assault pays 4 times the tonnage that a light does per jet)} and expect to get the performance that 6+ jets give you on a light/medium, I usually run at least 4 if I am taking jets, and do not bother with them on heavy or assault Mechs unless I can take 4+, the most effective way I have found to use a few jets to gain altitude is to run up a hill and fire the jets as the hill starts to flatten out

[StumbleBee]

Thanks for the responses. So what did jump jets used to do? I agree that they're underwhelming currently.

[TercieI]

StumbleBee, on 27 May 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Thanks for the responses. So what did jump jets used to do? I agree that they're underwhelming currently.

Take a Griffin, put five JJ in it and go jump around on HPG. That's what one JJ used to do on anything.

[Tarl Cabot]

TercieI, on 27 May 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Take a Griffin, put five JJ in it and go jump around on HPG. That's what one JJ used to do on anything.

Or watch this. This is when ERPPC had higher velocity, thus synergy with gauss rifles that had no charge up, needing only one jump jet, as well as 8vs8. Basically PGI originally fubar the JJ coding that put most of the functionality into the 1st JJ, while adding more JJ yield very little. Then PGI neutered every weapon that highlanders/victors and other mechs were using before castrating jump jets for heavy/assault mechs, most which could only equip 2-4 JJ.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 May 2016 - 04:35 PM.

[Rhavin]

Unless the jumpjets are locked because it's a clan mech I remove them when I rebuild. Then if I have weight left, and not enough critical space for a heat sink or an engine upgrade (cbills apply here too) but enough for a jumpjets or two then I add them. I don't jump much in any mech really, I use them to cushion weapons against crits, and to stop a fall from damaging my legs when I run off a cliff in Canyon Network or Bog.

[Koniving]

Rogue Jedi, on 27 May 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

it completely depends on what you want the jets for, PGI have foolishly implemented a system where 1 jet gives you a turn speed advantage ^{(I think it should be that jets give no turn speed boost, or failing that a scaling boost starting with 2 jets for a small amount of airborne agility and more jets giving more agailty)}

if I take jets it is because I want to get over obstacles or reach areas most Mechs cannot, I run near max jump jets on a Spider 5V and it gains altitude so much faster than other Mechs that I have been accused of cheating, what a surprise that 11 Jumpjets gives you altitude a lot faster and far higher max altitude than 6, six jets will get you onto the high platforms on bog from ground level, 12 will get you up there quickly with plenty of fuel left.

the whole hoverjet complaints are usually from people who pack 1-2 jets on a heavy/assault ^{(unfortunately the Highlander can only take 3 and the heavier the Mech the less the jets seem to do despite the fact that an assault pays 4 times the tonnage that a light does per jet)} and expect to get the performance that 6+ jets give you on a light/medium, I usually run at least 4 if I am taking jets, and do not bother with them on heavy or assault Mechs unless I can take 4+, the most effective way I have found to use a few jets to gain altitude is to run up a hill and fire the jets as the hill starts to flatten out

Might be mistaken but ages ago (during the height of MWO meta for shadow Hawks, Victor's and highlanders), his got needed on turns too. It's why I stopped doing jumper turning due to the turn speed being based on how many jumpers you had. (Only turn while thrusting, needing Two supposedly to be faster than reg turning... which is still an issue).

I agree though the jets shouldn't turn faster than turning at partial speed. (Note because of slow jj speed you will still turn faster than "full speed" turns. But not faster than quarter speed turns).


That is throttle at a quarter speed and turning.

[TooDumbToQuit]

I can't put jump jets back on to my Kit Foxes. I even strip them and it says "item limit reached"

[Not A Real RAbbi]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 May 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

I can't put jump jets back on to my Kit Foxes. I even strip them and it says "item limit reached"

Kit Fox is an omnimech, so the Jump Jets are hard-locked into the omnipods. You cannot add or remove jump jets like regular equipment, for instance, like heat sinks. You must equip the omnipods that have jump jets in them.

The TBR is a fine example of this. The TBR-S has one JJ in the CT, and two in each the LT and RT. No other TBR in MWO has any JJs. But ANY TBR can have JJs, by adding the appropriate TBR LT or RT. And the TBR-S, in its normal omnipod configuration, has 5 JJs, but by removing one of both of the side torso omnipods, you can cut that down to 3 or even 1.

It's less obvious in mechs like the Shadow Cat, where EVERY variant has locked JJs (two in each leg, one in each side torso), so there's no difference between them with regard to JJs.

Similarly, for instance, the Warhawk has several locked heat sinks in the LT on EVERY one, and those cannot be removed. HOWEVER, you can add more DHS on top of those locked into the mech. This is not the case for jump jets because there is a hard limit to the number that a particular mech can carry. And THAT goes back to tabletop rules...

See, in TT BattleTech, mechs had a movement rate. Take the mech's engine size, divide by its weight, and you have the WALKING movement rate. Multiply THAT by 1.5 (rounding UP), and you have its RUNNING movement rate. Now, consider the TBR above. It weighs 75 tons and has a 375 engine rating. 375 / 75 = 5. So, it had a walking rate of up to 5. 5 * 1.5 = 7.5, => 8. So its MAXIMUM rate of movement was 8. The fun Jump Jet rule? It could not have a higher jump jet movement rate than its walking rate. The TBRs all had 5/8 movement on ground. So, the TBR-S, having locked Jump Jets, had a max jump movement rate of 5 (1 per jet, up to the maximum walking rate of 5). Its movement rate was 5/8/5, whereas the other TBRs we have in MWO are all 5/8/0. But again, we can swap omnipods in MWO between variants, and arrive at 5/8/0, 5/8/1, 5/8/3, or 5/8/5.

(Psst- the 5/8/x movement rate translates to 81.0 km/h without speed tweak in MWO. 4/6/x would be 64.8 km/h, 3/5/x would be 48.6(?), 6/9/x would be 97.2, and so on. Let that tell you the diameter of a single hex/space in tabletop BT, and you start to see where all these rules come from for weapon ranges, based on their almost all being multiples of SOME certain number of meters.)

[TooDumbToQuit]

So the problem is that I changed the Ominpods? Because it used to have them.

[TercieI]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 May 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

So the problem is that I changed the Ominpods? Because it used to have them.

Yeah. Only some pods have/allow them. Legs and STs of the KFX-S IIRC.

[TercieI]

Just dug this up since Kon's video doesn't truly show it off: This is the Poptart meta at its "best."

As JagerXII says in the video: "This, ladies and gentlemen, is Mechwarrior Online played in its most brutal form. A perfect display."

That's pretty much what high Elo matches looked like.

Edited by TercieI, 28 May 2016 - 08:08 AM.

[xe N on]

Mediums are the only mech class that really profit from having more than 1 jump jet, because the class IV jumpjets got buffed.

My GRFs have 4 or 5 jets because using jets in brawling gives you an great mobility advantage.

Edited by xe N on, 28 May 2016 - 08:34 AM.

[TercieI]

xe N on, on 28 May 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

Mediums are the only mech class that really profit from having more than 1 jump jet, because the class IV jumpjets got buffed.

My GRFs have 4 or 5 jets because using jets in brawling gives you an great mobility advantage.

That's not true. The difference between 1&2 on a light is a big deal. And the 6 locked on the ACH allow it to do things no other light can do.