84 replies to this topic

[PholkLorr]

Duke Nedo, on 02 June 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

If I remember correctly it was 4x PPC stalkers completely without GH that was the scary stuff...

And tbh, that crappy dual gauss has unlimited ammo and weights like 21 tons instead of 36 tons (including 6t ammo).

Wrong, tri PPC EVEN without Ghost heat weighs 171 tons to be equivalent to Dual gauss because you need 50 DHS to make 1 ppc behave like a 1 heat gauss

[spectralthundr]

Never mind that PPC hit detection has been broken since day 1 and apparently always will be. Cryengine sucks. They should have stuck with Unreal, why they ever made the switch is beyond me.

[Duke Nedo]

PholkLorr, on 02 June 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

Wrong, tri PPC EVEN without Ghost heat weighs 171 tons to be equivalent to Dual gauss because you need 50 DHS to make 1 ppc behave like a 1 heat gauss

Lol, that's the weirdest argument ever. Neither of them are dps weapons dude.

[Wintersdark]

Duke Nedo, on 02 June 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

If I remember correctly it was 4x PPC stalkers completely without GH that was the scary stuff...

And tbh, that crappy dual gauss has unlimited ammo and weights like 21 tons instead of 36 tons (including 6t ammo).

Weight doesn't matter. All that matters is resulting builds.

The 4ppc stalker was more dangerous, but even then: that was a 40pt alpha at 40 heat. We're talking about a 30pt 30ht alpha, because GH limit of 3. You can do that twice, maybe three times before you're standing around cooling, and you do zero damage inside 90m.

Gauss is almost hitscan it's so fast, generates zero heat, the resultant build typically packs 6t ammo, so 900 damage: outside of CW, that's more than enough for pubqueue matches.

Nobody feels dual Gauss is OP, but 3 PPC's is over the top?

[Wintersdark]

Duke Nedo, on 02 June 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

Lol, that's the weirdest argument ever. Neither of them are dps weapons dude.

no, but heat as a limitation is a very valid point.

You're saying 30pt alphas are a serious issue, but only with PPC's? Gauss can do that, still ppfld, all day long, whereas a PPC sniper is firing twice then cooling. If pushed, he's done for. If you get close, he's done for.

Meanwhile, we've got cooler, harder, hitscan laser alphas.


I get fears of power creep, but GH limit of 3 on PPC's isn't anything close to power creeping.

[SmoothCriminal]

Too much common sense in this thread - it will never happen.

[SmoothCriminal]

spectralthundr, on 02 June 2016 - 12:58 AM, said:

Never mind that PPC hit detection has been broken since day 1 and apparently always will be. Cryengine sucks. They should have stuck with Unreal, why they ever made the switch is beyond me.

Because it was free. The new Cryengine is also free - but free means no tech support. Hence stagnation of game development.

[Duke Nedo]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2016 - 02:00 AM, said:

no, but heat as a limitation is a very valid point.

You're saying 30pt alphas are a serious issue, but only with PPC's? Gauss can do that, still ppfld, all day long, whereas a PPC sniper is firing twice then cooling. If pushed, he's done for. If you get close, he's done for.

Meanwhile, we've got cooler, harder, hitscan laser alphas.


I get fears of power creep, but GH limit of 3 on PPC's isn't anything close to power creeping.

Actually I am not saying 30 point alphas is an issue in isolation (though 30 synced FLD is borderline imo), but there are things to consider here. You can for example build a KGC with 2x Gauss AND 3x PPC for a 60 FLD with manageable heat, and you can fit mediums like BJ-3 and SHD-2K with 3x PPC because they are light (while they could not carry dual gauss). So, I don't find it fair to say that weight doesn't matter. Weight dictates how much else you can combine them with, or how light chassi you can fit them on. (I guess this is what you meant as well so we're in the same boat here)

All I am saying is that 3x PPC is a different FLD-Lego piece than 2x Gauss, not just a crappy version of replacement for them, and shouldn't be compared in isolation without considering the context.

I'd love to see this on chassi that can't abuse it though, like the Awesome. Not so sure it's a great idea to release that across the line.

Anyhow, they are supposedly changing the GH system so there's no point to argue this really... expect everything to be broken Soon™ anyways.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 02 June 2016 - 04:32 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Ozealot, on 02 June 2016 - 02:34 AM, said:

Every time I encounter them they are on a chassis which has significant quirks for them, and they are dangerously fine. So you propose an overall buff while retaining the quirks to.... do what exactly? Make them spread like cancer again? With more severe cases? There is nothing wrong about PPCs being a rare sight. There is a big difference between ppfld 30 damage and dot 30 damage. But you know that, and apparently it's not enough for you. Also, that simple talk "if you get close" yadayada. If you want PPCs buffed, I assume you know how to use them already. So you probably stand in a position, where you can't just be overrun without doing significant or fatal damage if it's not a lance or the entire team which tries to get you. Most dual gauss builds have to use torso mounts and a Gauss having so much slots is guaranteed to explode when that torso is exposed, Whale can't twist properly. It's severely affecting the overall durability in a standoff at medium engagement ranges, even more so when made a priority target - because you had a look at the weapon readout. Additionally it's ammo limited. Where is the limitations of a PPC build which suddenly becomes viable on every single chassis? Heat? So you just take the three of 'em which wouldn't have ghost heat and cramp in dhs and armor to the remaining space and call it a day. Sounds like fun. Awesome. Ooops. Maybe more like Thunderbolt. Dejavue? Oh you liked that? I didn't. Too much cheese and barely enough whine.

What? Paragraphs, man. Paragraphs.

And no, we don't think PPC's should be buffed and the quirks left as they are. We feel that PPC's are only good on mechs with velocity quirks, so what SHOULD happen is that PPC velocity should be increased by that amount, and those velocity quirks reduced, either entirely or partially, with other quirks given if necessary for the chassis balance.

The idea is simple:

Problem: PPC's are only good on PPC velocity quirked mechs.

Solution: increase PPC base velocity, and reduce velocity quirks. If those previously velo-quirked mechs need something,they can have different quirks (or smaller velocity quirks if they're PPC mechs)

Result: PPC's are useful for all mechs, but still retain their innate disadvantages (even increased, accuracy via projectile speed; heat; min range; etc) so that PPC's are a viable option for all mechs, not just those with the right quirks.

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 June 2016 - 05:56 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

DarthHias, on 01 June 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

PPCs feel right on Mechs with 50% Velocity boost. So give that boost to all PPC´s. Remove those quirks and give them something else. Bingo.

Yes, the PPCs with 50% speed increase through quirks seem to be good. However, even a 30% increase is often too slow. I mean you already hit well...but not well enough considering the drawbacks of the enormous heat

[zephoidb]

Just make all PPCs act like CERPPCs with the additional 5 damage splash and drop the heat. Mitigates pinpoint damage and distinguishes them more from LL

I used to run a 3x LL, 2x PPC battlemaster on those high shoulder mounts just to get around the worst of ghost heat. Impressive burst, but you got 1 and you were ducking back to cool.

The only mechs that i've had PPCs be effective on is the poptart nova. Double in the STs mounted right next to the cockpit give you great accuracy and a playstyle thats pretty unique in the game. One of the last effective jumpers.

[Metus regem]

This sounds a lot like you don't know how to aim properly. Lead your target, watch the range indicator and pick your moment. I've done a head shot in my WHM-BW at 1500m with the ERPPC'S...

The PPC family is my most accurate weapon system, between the three types, I average 76% accuracy, a little lower than what I'd like, but I'm still bringing it up from when I sucked with them. Just because you don't understand how they work effectively doesn't make them bad weapons. MG's have that in spades right now.

[Blind Baku]

PholkLorr, on 01 June 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

20 dmg. Snail moving. 20 heat. PPCs and ERPPCs are the lowest dps weapons of all time due to their heat. You will ALWAYS do more dps taking a LPL over a PPC/ERPPC. Guaranteed.

...

0) Change IS ghost heat to 3
1) Drop PPC heat to 8.5, ERPPC to 11
2) Change speed back to 1500m/s. ERPPC speed to 1700 m/s
3) Remove 90m min range

I can dig all of these suggestions. But I don't think you are 100% right on the LPL are always greater than PPC's... While they could REALLY use some love to make them better on any mech, I am not convinced they're quite the absolute rubbish you're put them up to be. But then I use them almost exclusively on either quirks mechs, or lights. If the mech is fast enough to reposition quickly 2 PPCs or ERPPCs can be more useful to the team than LPLs, but it is more about target prioritization (Is there something open I can put a 10 - 20 hit on?>Is there a target that needs to be spun?>Is there an ECM mech that needs to have his ECM turned off?>etc...)

I don't think I would completely remove the min range, but cutting it back would be nice, maybe 60 - 45m. A universal speed boost would be fantastic but also would absolutely require a look over all the mechs with PPC Velocity quirks (that PNT-10k would have to scale it back a little, though I would leave it on to keep the mech flavored as a PPC boat), Heat on ERPPCs absolutely needs to drop, heat on PPCs, could be worse...

The only other suggestion I saw that I am sure i would not want would be adding splash, thus removing the pinpoint nature of the weapon. No thanks, the weapon is supposed to be a sniper like weapon, you need to be able to put the full damage exactly where you want it.

[Moldur]

No, PPCs were good at one point. NEVER AGAIN NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN NEVER. NEVER AGAIN. NEVER NEVER.

NO JUMPJETS
NO PPCS
NO FUN VICTORS
NO NOTHING.

[Wintersdark]

Ozealot, on 02 June 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

Maybe when you reached tier 1, where the majority of players already is, you will meet some of those people which can use PPCs as of now effectively and don't cry for a buff because they like the blue colors but can't aim and manage their machines heat, you will rechoice.

Until then paragraphs, kid. Paragraphs.

If PGI would react to every suggestion of the underhive, well you know... paragraphs.

Wow. Really? Going to play the tier game?

Yes, clearly, my problem is I'm just a drooling incompetent who has no idea of how to play, stuck foundering in T2 purgatory because I just can't hack the leet skillz of T1. Not because I only play ~10 matches per week, no. I'm just that bad. But whatever makes you feel like a forum badass. Regardless, going the insulting route was fairly unnecessary. Did I insult you? No. I'm merely detailing a problem with a weapon.

If a weapon is pretty much never used (outside of PPC quirked mechs), there's a reason for it. And with PPC's, that reason is entirely velocity. You can actually dodge PPC blasts, unlike... well, everything else.

PPC's are not ok, and haven't been OK since the Great Velocity Nerf.

[MerryIguana]

Ozealot, on 02 June 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

Maybe when you reached tier 1, where the majority of players already is,

[Queek Head Taker]

Op is whack! Don't get me wrong ppc aren't the greatest but they sure aren't bad, and his damage assessment is bonkers!

[Lightfoot]

PPCs ERPPCs are too slow, have some HR problems-which has improved btw. I can accept the excess heat, but only if the projectile speed is made better because the heat is quite a crippling burden if the mech is not quirked at all. PPCs are almost ok though. They require aiming, but get the advantages of a projectile.

[Wintersdark]

Ozealot, on 02 June 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

ERPPCs have double the speed of AC20 shells. PPCs nearly double. Y u can dodge PPC and not AC20? #leetskillz #Icanreadnumbers #tier1playersincetierintroduction #gitgud #gitbeddah #gitrekt

Oh, and PPC projectiles don't have to take gravity into account. #knowledgeispower #myeyezareleettoo

Before I forget it, that smacktalk about tiers is obviously sarcasm. #altoughIcanreadnumberz #readisleet


PS: Maybe there is a reason why ERPPCs
- are exactly double the speed
- do exactly half the damage
- at exactly half weight
- with exactly double the heat
- but no ammo dependence
compared to an IS AC20.

Ya, I know. Stop the applause. You too may notice, or not, a pattern.

I am aware of the pattern. It's a bad pattern, and highly misleading. Things don't scale this way.

First, we aren't talking about ERPPC's here, we're talking about PPC's. But if we are talking about ERPPC's, then it's even more important to consider the differences with regards to ranges: The ERPPC is more than twice the heat, it's 14 heat vs. 6 for the IS AC20. The ERPPC has a 1620m maximum range, but travels at 1300 m/s: It takes more than a full second to travel from firing point to max range. That's a freaking eternity in this game. Even at optimal range, it's well more than half a second from firing to impact. The end result is that there's a tremendous heat cost for something that, no matter how well you aim, you may well end up missing or hitting an arm or some such.



Why is it OK for an AC20 to have a low speed? Because the the AC20 is a close quarters weapon. It's a weapon usually used at very close ranges, where the travel time is a non-issue. The PPC is literally unusable at very close ranges (17% of it's optimal range band) where it would be most accurate. So, inaccuracy at 270-360m isn't so important, if you're running an AC20 you push in tight. There's a reason AC20's are so often coupled with SRM's.

This is a problem for the PPC, because there's a high opportunity cost to firing it in terms of heat. You fire, and sustain a substantial amount of heat - if you miss (or miss a good target component, say because your target twisted his arm into the path of the bolt) the high heat is a severe penalty.

---

This, incidentally, is also a major reason as to why AC10's are rare as hens teeth. I can't recall ever seeing them used in any kind of serious comp play. I'm sure they're used sometimes, but I've certainly not seen it. Now, they get used in pubqueue play, but so do machine guns, LBX cannons, and massed LRM20's. They don't have the heat, but they're still only doing 10 damage and are quite inaccurate directly as a result of their travel speed.

[Zolaz]

Wasnt it Paul who fixed PPCs? And everything Paul fixes is great!!!