84 replies to this topic

[TVMA Doc]

It wasn't really clear. Does the OP not like PPCs?

[GrimRiver]

14 heat for 10 damage is "bad, real bad"(In Elvis Presley's voice)

Add splash damage to IS-ERPPC like clans ERPPC's

And give STD PPC a 20-30% boost to projectile speed.

[Variant1]

Petition: rename this post to OP NEEDS TO GIT GUD

its 10 pin point damage son, that you can immediately twist the incoming fire after shooting, something you cant do on a LPL. Of course i think LPL should get a heat nerf its too good right now.

PPCs in every mechwarrior game have ALWAYS been hot weapons heck maybe even slow (i don't remember ppc in mw4 being fast). Thats because ppcs get the benefits of both energy and ballistic. They weigh less than ballistics and can fire infinitely (while managing heat of course) while at the same time also having downsides of both (heat, projectile speed). Its really a hybrid weapon that needs to be used strategically hence why it takes skill to use hence why its not poplar. It doesn't mean the weapon sucks though.

"gauss can do 30 on a fast moving 0 heat" Well gauss also weighs more and costs an additional 1 ton per ammo as well on top having a charge mechanic.

"ER PPCS. Even junkier" ER PPC have the benefit of not having a min range like the ppc at the cost of more heat. If the ppc min range is a problem why not use a backup weapon say a small laser (which reaches up to min range or further)?

"ER PPCs and PPCs. 2 worst weapons in the game" Correction mgs is the worst weapon. It does jack for dmg, has small range and is terrible at criting (its one job) the only upside to it is that it doesn't weight much/no heat. Flamers used to be also terrible but are now better.

Now lets compare the ppc to the ac10 its ballistic equivalent: both do the same dmg and are projectile weapons. PPC is hotter but can fire forever and weighs less. Ac10 is less heat but uses ammo/weighs more than ppc.

What ppcs do need is quirk removal. That way its much easier to get used to the projectile speed. They already been buffed i don't think they need anymore buffs.

If you're gona talk about weapon balance you have to look at each weapons upsides and downsides. don't strawman another weapon just to make the weapon your talking about look weak otherwise the post is going to look biased

TLDR: op needs to git gud and l2n to weponz

Edited by Variant1, 02 June 2016 - 11:51 AM.

[DjPush]

This is why I can't play this game anymore. Too many people whine, complain, and work hard at being bad.

It's a weapon.
It has unique characteristics.
Learn how to use the weapon.
Take time and learn how to aim.
Make more heat efficient builds if you want to use a PPC/ERPPC.

Not everything is about DPS and one shot kills.

Git gud derp.

Edited by DjPush, 02 June 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[Steve Pryde]

Problem ist the heat system at the moment, not the weapon itself. Or why do you see Summoners with just 2 er-ppcs and the rest of the tonnage goes into double heat sinks? And the joke is u can't cool it off with that many heat sinks cause Paul said "sorry bro, no heat neutral mechs". >.<

[Violent Nick]

They should knock Min Range off PPCs full stop and even replicate the reduced damage mechanism to IS LRMs as it currently stands from Clan Lrms. Those two tweaks would be a massive boost for the game in my honest opinion.

Also, PGI could give PPCs of all kinds back their speed and pass on the same no more than dual gauss mechanic to Gauss+PPC usage.

To me, this just seems like common sense, but..

Heyho.

[Gorgo7]

If it were me I would overhaul the PPC to the following effect.

PPC should have a relativistic velocity. Like lasers.
Crosshairs on target, pull trigger, land.
They should not suffer from hitscan.
They should have ghost heat for firing more than one in .5 seconds.
Heat should be 10.
You should only be able to carry a max of one per (full) 20 tons of weight.


# edited infinite to relativistic, which, given the practical ranges of this game, and the human ability to discern relativistic velocities with our natural senses are one and the same.

Edited by Gorgo7, 02 June 2016 - 03:11 PM.

[Koniving]

El Bandito, on 01 June 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

That 90 meter minimum range of PPC really screws one over, unless one is using a fast mech.

The irony is that the source material has it as a 90 meter minimum accuracy range. Not that shots blast all over, but because: ... in early editions the reasoning is that PPCs (and autocannons) were so heavy to swing around (autocannons also had minimum accuracy ranges, usually 30 and 60 meters). Of course they were drawn as handheld in many cases. Later, post 1993, it was changed to PPCs had a field inhibitor which removed the risk of damage to the user mech by gradually charging the weapon -- with weapon variants having various charge delays [can be quirks, this mech charges up PPCs quicker than that one]... in which the minimum accuracy penalty is attributed to the weapon having to charge up and the difficulty of hitting a target up close speeding by you as you charge and fire the weapon.

If we were to use this method, the "charge" time could also 'ease' some of the heat in. Say if it's 10 heat, then a 0.5 second charge might bring in 2 heat (which most mechs carrying PPCs or ER PPCs would sink 2 heat in a second), leaving only 8 heat to deal with when you go to fire.

Fast PPCs don't concern me, particularly with a charge up mechanic. Tap to charge, not the Gauss Rifle "Hold to charge" bullcrap.

This said, "fast" PPCs could be offset by autocannons having 3x range (to 0 damage instead of 2x range) once again; AC/2 (and derivatives) and Gauss having 4x range. This would also offset the current laser meta by giving them several somethings to contend with.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Gorgo7, on 02 June 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

If it were me I would overhaul the PPC to the following effect.

PPC should have an infinite velocity. Like lasers.
Crosshairs on target, pull trigger, land.
They should not suffer from hitscan.
They should have ghost heat for firing more than one in .5 seconds.
Heat should be 10.
You should only be able to carry a max of one per (full) 20 tons of weight.

PPC bursts do travel at relativistic velocities according to Lore. They are not lightning cannons; they are kinetic energy weapons... but they should be traveling around 0.05c

[Gorgo7]

All this talk has me rebuilding my AWS-8Q with a close to standard loadout!
Wish me luck!

[Trauglodyte]

Weak arguments, OP.

PPC velocity is the exact same as the AC/5. Are you incapable of hitting things with that? While I don't agree that the PPC is in a good place for damage to heat ratio, the velocity on it and the ER PPC is just fine. But, seriously, you're complaining about the 90m dead zone, which is a TT rule from basic Battletech, and then you go on to complain about how slow it is for faster mechs. If you're on a faster chassis, the dead zone is irrelevant because you've got the speed to maintain your range. IF you're using it on something that isn't quirked for it, either start driving one that is or learn to aim better.

Again: Beta PPC = 800 m/s without HSR. I was hitting Jenners and Mandos back then in my Cicada with the game in that garbage state. Today's PPC is a joke compared to back then.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gorgo7, on 02 June 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

All this talk has me rebuilding my AWS-8Q with a close to standard loadout!
Wish me luck!

It must be three PPCs and small laser in the head to be an 8Q. IT MUST!

On topic, I happen to like PPCs (favorite weapon in the entire BT universe and always have been). And I still use them.

An unquirked PPC is not good. It's not bad, but it's not good either.

Quirked PPCs are amazeballs and damn near the only mechs I've played in the last month have been PPC mechs. Those chassis are actually good enough to consider for comp play.

But unquirked PPC to unquirked LPL, LPL pretty much defecates all over it.

I actually think the LPL (both C and IS) need a slight nerf.

[no one]

*Insert long explanation of how it's futile to try and balance weapons by heat in a fundamentally broken heat system. Explain how heat capacity could replace ghost heat with a portion of weapon heat delivered over time. Describe how a low capacity high dissipation system that would make the game better. Talk about various overheat penalties. Cry into my keyboard and curse PGI's lack of vision, etc and so forth.*

Edited by no one, 02 June 2016 - 03:24 PM.

[Gorgo7]

NO ONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT!

[Alex Morgaine]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2016 - 05:55 AM, said:

The idea is simple:

Problem: PPC's are only good on PPC velocity quirked mechs.

Solution: increase PPC base velocity, and reduce velocity quirks. If those previously velo-quirked mechs need something,they can have different quirks (or smaller velocity quirks if they're PPC mechs)

Result: PPC's are useful for all mechs, but still retain their innate disadvantages (even increased, accuracy via projectile speed; heat; min range; etc) so that PPC's are a viable option for all mechs, not just those with the right quirks.

This, simple and makes sense. If you need to, cut the innate buff to 75%ish of the value (if it's 50%, make it 35-40%) and toss it the quirks for something better, or just more flavor ( reduce minimum range by 15 meters, ppc color changed to red, cool down reduced by 10%, or something like that)

[Trauglodyte]

Frosty Brand, on 02 June 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

This, simple and makes sense. If you need to, cut the innate buff to 75%ish of the value (if it's 50%, make it 35-40%) and toss it the quirks for something better, or just more flavor ( reduce minimum range by 15 meters, ppc color changed to red, cool down reduced by 10%, or something like that)

SO, make PPCs good for people that suck at aiming on top of being awful at managing their heat and bring us back to a time where PPCs are everywhere because, hey, you don't need to be good at aiming projectile weapons anymore?

[Wintersdark]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

Weak arguments, OP.

PPC velocity is the exact same as the AC/5. Are you incapable of hitting things with that? While I don't agree that the PPC is in a good place for damage to heat ratio, the velocity on it and the ER PPC is just fine. But, seriously, you're complaining about the 90m dead zone, which is a TT rule from basic Battletech, and then you go on to complain about how slow it is for faster mechs. If you're on a faster chassis, the dead zone is irrelevant because you've got the speed to maintain your range. IF you're using it on something that isn't quirked for it, either start driving one that is or learn to aim better.

Again: Beta PPC = 800 m/s without HSR. I was hitting Jenners and Mandos back then in my Cicada with the game in that garbage state. Today's PPC is a joke compared to back then.

In Earlier Open Beta, before the first velocity buffs, PPC's were largely considered garbage too.

But, vs. AC5? There's an important difference.

The PPC carries a very high opportunity cost. At roughly 1:1 heat to damage, unlike an AC5 a miss is a serious problem. An AC5 pushes higher DPS outright at lower HPS. So, you're doing substantially less damage with a PPC even with perfect accuracy.

PPC velocity would be fine with lower heat PPC's, or with a better heat system in the first place. Or if PPC hitreg wasn't as sketchy as it is (and always has been), particularly when firing multiple PPC's. But better hitreg? That's not going to happen.


But the important aspect here is that PPC's, with their high heat, have a heavy load on "risk" but bring very little "reward" for that risk investment, as 1:1 damage to heat in even an ideal situation is very poor compared to weapons like the Large Pulse Laser, which offers 1:0.7 damage to heat and hitscan.

There's a reason why, if you look through Metamechs and such, mechs are chock full of LPL's and there are practically no mechs with PPC's at all. Definitely no T1/T2 PPC mechs (at least without substantial quirks).

no one, on 02 June 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

*Insert long explanation of how it's futile to try and balance weapons by heat in a fundamentally broken heat system. Explain how heat capacity could replace ghost heat with a portion of weapon heat delivered over time. Describe how a low capacity high dissipation system that would make the game better. Talk about various overheat penalties. Cry into my keyboard and curse PGI's lack of vision, etc and so forth.*

^^

[Moldur]

Oh, there is no actual petition.

[Wintersdark]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

SO, make PPCs good for people that suck at aiming on top of being awful at managing their heat and bring us back to a time where PPCs are everywhere because, hey, you don't need to be good at aiming projectile weapons anymore?

It's not a black and white issue.

And it has nothing to do with your ability to manage heat. Heat is a finite scale, assuming you're not terribad and aren't overheating, heat has exactly the same impact on everyone - it's a hard cap on damage output. Largely unimportant if you're playing a peek-and-poke game, but if the OpFor doesn't allow(or even in most cases when they do) that fundamentally the LPL is simply grossly more effective than the PPC.

I'm not saying the PPC should have massive velo buffs. I'm also not saying the PPC should be crazy-good on quirked chassis (those quirks should be reduced). But if a weapon is only ever used on mechs quirked for it, there's something wrong: It's not a good choice. When a weapon isn't a good choice except when it's the only choice (heavily quirked mechs) then that deprives players of hard choices in mech design, which is a bad thing.

But, if you want the PPC to be as high heat in our broken-heat-system game, it needs to be good enough to compensate.

Also, in this thread, I recommended going to a ghost heat cap of 3 instead of a velocity buff. Either, really. Something that makes PPC's a more interesting choice in the Mechlab.

I suppose you could also nerf the LPL, but that's going to make a lot more people grouchy. I don't care much, to be honest, I just want better (read: harder) mechlab choices.

Moldur, on 02 June 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

Oh, there is no actual petition.

Well, no. Petitions are against the CoC here, and are pointless anyways.

[Aiden Skye]

I use PPC's a lot on my clan mechs most of which that I would want to run PPCs on have no PPC quirks. I don't mind the heat as much as I mind the speed. They really need to be faster. I'd take 12 /1.5/1.5 CERPPCs at 1600ms and be happy with that. Doesn't sound game-breaking to me.