84 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

To anyone telling the OP to "git gud", if you are not regularly using (ER)PPCs on unquirked Mechs, STFU and GIT GUD yourself using PPCs first!

Edited by Mystere, 02 June 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Winter, I'm not arguing that PPCs are fine, concerning their stats. The damage is fine, the velocity is fine, and the range is fine. The heat is the aspect that is keeping them from being good weapons. That the Large Lasers, being a hit scan weapon, is stupid easy to hit yet has a positive heat:damage ratio and the PPC doesn't is a major mistake. Dropping the PPC down to 9 heat and the ER PPC down to 13 heat would be fine. Again, the problem isn't any of the aspects of the weapon other than heat. People that complain about any of the rest of it are just awful and would complain about it being too slow at 2000 m/s.

Personally, and this is just my humble opinion, but I really wish that PGI would apply the PPC treatment to all weapons so that chassis that are supposed to carry the weapon are the best at it while those that aren't are just mediocre. Most people would argue with me to no end, but that is just my feelings on the matter.

Mystere, on 02 June 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

To anyone telling the OP to "git gud", if you are not regularly using (ER)PPCs on unquirked Mechs, STFU and GIT GUD yourself using PPCs first!

I guess that I get to keep typing whatever I want, then. Btw, the Stephen Colbert gif was better.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 June 2016 - 04:56 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Mystere, on 02 June 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

To anyone telling the OP to "git gud", if you are not regularly using (ER)PPCs on unquirked Mechs, STFU and GIT GUD yourself using PPCs first!

Off topic, but (for good or ill) this gif perfectly encapsulates 99% of your posts on this forums

[Wintersdark]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

Winter, I'm not arguing that PPCs are fine, concerning their stats. The damage is fine, the velocity is fine, and the range is fine. The heat is the aspect that is keeping them from being good weapons. That the Large Lasers, being a hit scan weapon, is stupid easy to hit yet has a positive heat:damage ratio and the PPC doesn't is a major mistake. Dropping the PPC down to 9 heat and the ER PPC down to 13 heat would be fine. Again, the problem isn't any of the aspects of the weapon other than heat.

Sure. But the heat wouldn't be wrong if the weapon was better elsewhere =) This is a circular argument, though, and I don't disagree that the heat is more an issue than anything else. Heat is basically a major balancing mechanic in MWO (as with Battletech in general) but MWO's heat system is, at best, sketchy so it works kind of poorly.

The crux of my posts in this thread, though, is this:

PPC's are not fine. They are not a competitive choice when building a mech, unless there are substantial quirks for them on that mech. You can make them work, of course, just like you can make LB10-X Autocannons work or Flamers or LRM20's or Machine Guns even.

Whatever one feels is specifically wrong doesn't really matter that much, they need to be a bit better. Not a lot better, of course, but a bit better.

For some, a velocity increase would make them worth the heat:damage. For others, less heat would make them worth the velocity(read accuracy):damage. I don't really care, to be honest. I'd be fine with less heat, or with more velocity, whatever.

I actually prefer (but not enough to really care) a ghost heat limit of 3, as then you're looking at a better competitor to Large Lasers and Large Pulse Lasers - being able to put 30 damage downrange per volley instead of 20 is significant when comparing to the 27 and 33 respectively, particularly given how using both lasers and PPC's is a non-starter due to our gimpy heat system and the different combat profiles, so they are in direct competition for energy hardpoint usage.

Quote

People that complain about any of the rest of it are just awful and would complain about it being too slow at 2000 m/s.

See, this kinda gets my goat. While true in some cases, these generalizations lead to us vs. them mentalities that are grossly incorrect most of the time and basically openly hostile. It's just not constructive. There are LOTS of reasons to not like them right now. Sometimes, people's choice of solutions differs because they use them differently, other times because they don't fully understand why they aren't as good (this is very common, in fact). It's not that they want hitscan PPC's and would still complain anyways - people just want PPC's to be viable competitors there. They're not all monsters because they disagree with you.

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 June 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, I'm a bit edge as of late so just chalk up the "git gud" parts of my post(s) as me being angsty. It is probably all of that early '90s Grunge music that I can't let go.

As to your first part, you're right. The PPC does need to be better. Though, I would argue that there isn't any way of making it actually better without putting the game into a place where everyone stops boating Large Lasers and, instead, starts boating PPCs. This is why the PPC is where it is and why they're only "good" on specifically quirked mechs. My stance, as I've written before, is that heat is the primary problem. I say that because 1200 m/s and 1350 m/s is really good which is also why I often compare the PPC and the AC/5. The Mauler and the Blackwidow are both comp mechs that specifically boat the AC/5 and UAC/5 yet nobody complains that they're too slow. Hence, my opinion that the speed is in a really good spot.

To further talk about it, I'd say that you're absolutely correct in that the Ghost Heat limit should be raised to 3 and should never have been capped at 2. It takes a considerable amount of tonnage dedicated to 3 PPCs and the support equipment to make them cool enough to manage. Plus, we've got stock mechs built around 3 PPCs that can't full utilize them because of heat, ghost heat, and, well, the size of the carrier - poor Awesomes. PPCs at 9.5 heat are still too hot as are ER PPCs at 14. Ticking them back to 9 and 13.5, respectively, would go a long way to making them a lot better in conjunction with the change in GH. Though, that last part is probably a moot point given that we're eventually moving to a power draw GH functionality.

I would say that one thing that I'd like to see added to the PPC is to have it cause 1-2 points of heat. In Battletech, they had rules for an EMP missile warhead that caused damage and heat. There is also the Plasma Rifle that deals damage plus a small residual amount of heat. The point is that the PPC is an ionized energy weapon - man made lightning, if you will - that has enough electrical charge to it to knock out ECM. By that reasoning, it should have enough punch to arc through the mech and cause a small heat build up. Adding a couple points of heat to it to the target that it hits wouldn't break the weapon, on top of making it a little cooler, and it would bring a bit more utility to a very heavy weapon that already has a lot going against it. ECM isn't what it used to be and it should have equal functionality against all mechs.

Just my opinion, of course.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 June 2016 - 06:06 PM.

[oldradagast]

PPC's are in a bad place now and rarely see play; no amount of "git gud" is going to change that. ERPPC's are a laughable joke - putting out mediocre damage with insane heat and all the drawbacks of a ballistic weapon. IS PPC's are at least not miserably hot, but that idiotic minimum range kills them.

In all cases, unless you are playing a hyper-quirked mech or specifically need the front-loaded PPC damage, Large Pulse Lasers are simply better. Less heat, fewer crits needed, no minimum range, and (in theory) higher damage. Sure, they aren't front-loaded, but they are also hitscan. They also don't suffer from an idiotic minimum range limit or noticeable hit-reg issues.

Removing the stupid minimum range on the IS PPC's would be a start - I don't care if they do less damage under 90m or the damage scatters, but the hard limit needs to go. ERPPC's need better damage per heat ratio. Reduce the heat on the IS ones a bit more, and give the Clans either more of the damage on the main component or less heat.

[Mystere]

Instead of messing with heat, damage, or speed, why not give it more EMP-type side effects like HUD disruption, targeting loss, heat accumulation, etc.? That gives the weapon a much different flavor than the rest.

While we're at it, increase ECM disruption to 5 seconds or more.

Edited by Mystere, 02 June 2016 - 07:00 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

Personally, and this is just my humble opinion, but I really wish that PGI would apply the PPC treatment to all weapons so that chassis that are supposed to carry the weapon are the best at it while those that aren't are just mediocre. Most people would argue with me to no end, but that is just my feelings on the matter.

You mean making all weapons projectiles like in Mechwarrior 2? I honestly always wondered how that woulda worked in this game.

[Wintersdark]

Mystere, on 02 June 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

Instead of messing with heat, damage, or speed, why not give it more EMP-type side effects like HUD disruption, targeting loss, heat accumulation, etc.? That gives the weapon a much different flavor than the rest.

While we're at it, increase ECM disruption to 5 seconds or more.

I would love that. I was so disappointed when they added ECM disruption and it was so... Disappointing. I mean, it's better than nothing, but... It would have been so much cooler if PPC impacts disrupted your mech's electronics, fuzzing/flickering the HUD, disrupting target info, etc... Just seems like such a missed opportunity, and would make PPC's better by making them more interesting.

Sadly, that paragraph right there is basically applicable to everything in MWO

[GrimRiver]

This is my build for my CN9-AL , now tell would I get a better payoff if I replaced my 2x LPL's for 2x PPC's?

If you answer is "no" then you'd be right, I'd have to remove most my weapons and replace them with heatsinks just to combat every shot made along with a loss of DPS I had before the switch to PPC's.

There straight up is no reason to take a STD-PPC over a LPL and ERPPC are just too hot to boat more then 1 unless you got some heat gen quirks or alot room for DHS.

About the only time you'll see mechs with PPC's if they got quirks for it or a clan mech is using it for splash damage.

[Corrado]

i have 2PPC linked to 2AC5 in the firebrand. is a pretty succesful build.
in a quadPPC Awesome, quirked to heaven, they're pretty useful

they're not really the meta but performance wise are decent and funny for sure.

on the clan side, i like the 2erppc nova, the 2erppc hunchie-IIC-A (both in the RT for pinpoint and shield on left).
even the 2erppc summoner is funny

Edited by Corrado, 03 June 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[Kanil]

Trauglodyte, on 02 June 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

The Mauler and the Blackwidow are both comp mechs that specifically boat the AC/5 and UAC/5 yet nobody complains that they're too slow.

Keep in mind that both of these 'mechs have velocity quirks (Widow's is modest, admittedly), and more importantly, AC/5s are very different weapons than PPCs.

I guess if your point is that it's possible to have a ~1200m/s weapon that people don't complain about, then I'd agree, but if you wanted the PPC to be that weapon, it'd probably have to be a lot more like an AC/5 than it currently is. The combination of minimum range and projectile velocity is especially awkward in this regard. You can't fight up close, and other weapons do ranged work better...

[PyckenZot]

Please ask BJ-3 how useless PPCs are.

Motion dismissed!

[Steve Pryde]

PyckenZot, on 03 June 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

Please ask BJ-3 how useless PPCs are.

Motion dismissed!

strongest quirks for ppcs with 1800m/s velocity (nearly the same as gauss) and 7 heat ppcs. Wait, I'm searching the right picture for you...

[Nyte Kitsune]

LIke any other weapon you're either good with PPC's, or you're not. Its that simple. Could they be better? Sure, but so could a few other weapons. Would making them better make people choose them over other weapons, maybe, maybe not. I for one do just fine with PPC's and ER PPC's, I feel like they are "Almost" exactly where they need to be, they could be sped up a little more, but otherwise they're fine.

I agree with a few people here, maybe the OP just isn't very good with PPC's, which is fine, don't use them then. I don't use Gauss Rifles, AC 5's or Clan UAC's (Pretty much everything else though) as to be perfectly honest.. I can't hit squat with either of them. I do great with Lasers (Any kind, both clan and IS), and am Good with LRM's and PPC's, and average with everything else. Remember, just because someone says a weapons great, doesn't mean that it'll be so if you use it.

[PholkLorr]

Metus regem, on 02 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

This sounds a lot like you don't know how to aim properly. Lead your target, watch the range indicator and pick your moment. I've done a head shot in my WHM-BW at 1500m with the ERPPC'S...

The PPC family is my most accurate weapon system, between the three types, I average 76% accuracy, a little lower than what I'd like, but I'm still bringing it up from when I sucked with them. Just because you don't understand how they work effectively doesn't make them bad weapons. MG's have that in spades right now.

What's up with these people how good they are with 1800, 1680 and 1560m/s PPCs?

Isn't that what i've been suggesting all along? Make the speed 1500 m/s.

And in other news: AC10 needs bullet speed buff too.

And in more important news: To the "git gud"/PPC is a good weapon" crowd: I challenge you to a duel. You take PPC/ERPPC on a mech with no ppc/erppc quirks and i take whatever i want.

[PholkLorr]

Or maybe Paul's intention was to make PPCs the Hadoukens of MWO. Beautiful to look at and dodge.

[invernomuto]

DarthHias, on 01 June 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

PPCs feel right on Mechs with 50% Velocity boost. So give that boost to all PPC´s. Remove those quirks and give them something else. Bingo.

+1

Edit: after seeing this MoltenMetal's video () I tried a similar build on my Warhammer 6R (one of my least used variant, with a +50% buff in ppc velocity).
It performed well (500 - 600 dmg) but I would not use PPCs on anything with less than +30% PPCs velocity quirk.
If a quirk of a similar magnitude is needed to make a weapon viable, to me it means that the base PPC velocity needs to be toned up (and quirk toned down for all mech).

Edited by invernomuto, 03 June 2016 - 12:31 PM.

[Blind Baku]

Mystere, on 02 June 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

To anyone telling the OP to "git gud", if you are not regularly using (ER)PPCs on unquirked Mechs, STFU and GIT GUD yourself using PPCs first!

I use PPCs on the RVN 3L to good effect, does this count?

[GrimRiver]

I notice some people are missing the point.

PPC's really only work when.

1. Mechs that have quirks for them.

2. Mechs that have high mobility(ie:light mechs).

3. Mechs that have enough room for alot of DHS when boating more then 1 PPC,
but end up losing increase fire power because mo heatsinks.

4. Clan ERPPC are better because of splash damage, but suck otherwise.

It's the reason why you see more mechs with LPL over PPC's because PPC by themselves are trash,
and lets not forget PPC's have hit-reg issues sometimes.

LPL spreads damage better, runs cooler and needs less heatsinks.