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So Who Is Basically Counting The Days For The Resize, And Requirk?


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#81 oldradagast

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 06:28 AM

Point to clarify - I feel that making things equal in volume is the right STARTING point, but it must NOT be the ending point for balance.

Yes, two mechs of the same tonnage should have close to the same volume. It only makes sense, both in game logic (they are vehicles built for the same role in the same era using about the same materials) and in from a balance viewpoint.

That being said, it can only be a starting point since so many other things matter, such as profile (flat mechs are easier to kill than deep, skinny mechs) and hardpoints (number, location, etc.)

If PGI does not understand this, we'll get "balance" purely through volume, which won't work. I hope that a redoing of the quirks soon after the volume changes gets us closer to real balance, but based on past experiences I don't really have my hopes up since quirks have rarely made much sense over the months in how they've been applied.

Edited by oldradagast, 05 June 2016 - 06:29 AM.


#82 cazidin

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 07:18 AM

View PostYourSaviorLegion, on 05 June 2016 - 04:54 AM, said:

I'm waiting for the final nail in the coffin... I mean, hey wanna buy a mech pack?


Pardon the cynicism and assuming the rumors are true that the Town Halls have been cancelled until further notice how WILL they announce the next mech pack? Same as before? A big announcement on the website with little forewarning.

#83 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 07:23 AM

View Postcazidin, on 05 June 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:


Pardon the cynicism and assuming the rumors are true that the Town Halls have been cancelled until further notice how WILL they announce the next mech pack? Same as before? A big announcement on the website with little forewarning.

Dunno, don't care.

On the bright side, it least it appears Russ heard the earned criticism for the last "performance". Sadly, it appears instead of taking it to heart, and adapting, to not coming across unprofessional and churlish, it's apparently back to "I'm not talking to you".

*sigh*

When an autistic guy (me) can give one advice on how to handle social stuff, Houston, we got a problem.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 June 2016 - 07:24 AM.


#84 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 10:17 AM

Counting down the days until the forum burns so bright with rage, that sentient beings a dozen light years away think our sun went supernova?

Yeah I have my bomb shelter full of popcorn ready.

#85 cazidin

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 10:23 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 05 June 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

Dunno, don't care.

On the bright side, it least it appears Russ heard the earned criticism for the last "performance". Sadly, it appears instead of taking it to heart, and adapting, to not coming across unprofessional and churlish, it's apparently back to "I'm not talking to you".

*sigh*

When an autistic guy (me) can give one advice on how to handle social stuff, Houston, we got a problem.


Autistic? Do you mean Artistic? No joke but, I've seen a few of your sketches. They're good.

Back to the topic. Was the criticism of the last Town Hall really THAT harsh? We said he seemed unenthusiastic about it all and that maybe someone else should take over his positon or just wait a bit until the next. We still wanted them, we still want to hear what PGI has to say and has planned, we just didn't want him to have to drink in order to do that!

View PostLT. HARDCASE, on 05 June 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Counting down the days until the forum burns so bright with rage, that sentient beings a dozen light years away think our sun went supernova?

Yeah I have my bomb shelter full of popcorn ready.


Share the popcorn, please? Light butter.

#86 ScarecrowES

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 10:23 AM

View PostYellonet, on 05 June 2016 - 01:13 AM, said:

Wouldn't the sensible thing to do be to:
  • Come up with an average density for IS and (possibly a different average density for) Clan Mechs.
  • Resize each mech according to the above equally in all three dimensions, except for the mechs which are too wide, too tall and so on which get resized according to their needs.
  • I think that most 3D-modeling tools can display the volume of a model so it shouldn't be difficult to get the numbers right.
  • The result would be very fair as all mechs would have the proper volume according to their weight.
  • It shouldn't be too much work as for most mechs it would be the whole model that would change, no individual parts would need to be reworked.


You're in luck, as this is exactly what PGI did. Picked a density that put the largest possible number of mechs at the sweet spot in terms of their current volume to nominal volume, and then rescale all mechs based on that chosen density rating.

AND, you're in luck in that PGI has decided not to merely do a 1:1:1 rescale on all mechs that need sizing up or down. The Grasshopper, for instance, which PGI has felt is plenty tall enough, has to get increased in size, so they intend to buff up the limbs a little bit to get there. Both the Dire Wolf and Warhawk are oversized, but PGI feels those mechs would do better with a minor remodel rather than a simple rescale, so the geo is changing for those mechs. Catapult is getting a completely new model... Awesome is getting a major remodel. And so on.

I think it should offer us some comfort that, for the first time, PGI is actually taking a fully invested approach to getting a situation like this resolved. They did their research before they made any changes. They fully admitted their mistakes and acknowledged the community was right in terms of how far off some of these models were. They're investing a great deal of time and energy not only doing simple scaling, but in some cases creating all-new models to correct the problem. And, unlike any time before, they actually created a standard and are applying it universally. No balancing by dartboard.

Think about the investment they've made into this project. More than any quirk pass... and perhaps more than all major quirk passes combined. More than all the dynamic geo fixes (in fact, they're doing some of that as part of this project too). And this rescale will almost certainly have greater impact to overall balance than any previous action. It's going to be a huge paradigm shift that they'll still be tweaking a year from now, to be sure.

#87 ScarecrowES

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 10:30 AM

View Postcazidin, on 05 June 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

Back to the topic. Was the criticism of the last Town Hall really THAT harsh? We said he seemed unenthusiastic about it all and that maybe someone else should take over his positon or just wait a bit until the next. We still wanted them, we still want to hear what PGI has to say and has planned, we just didn't want him to have to drink in order to do that!


Russ has never been one to stand in place for any level of criticism. Given past experience, we should have known that having the forums explode over the last town hall would have caused Russ to take his ball and go home.

Frankly, the town halls have always been a mess, and I think, primarily, that's the fault of NGNG and their very poor moderation. But you could very much hear the exasperation in Russ's voice grow with each town hall until in the last one he sounded nearly broken. I imagine you can only respond to the same dumb questions so many times before even the most even-tempered among us throws their hands up in disgust. The funny part is, NGNG will ask one of those questions, one that has been asked and answered in previous town halls, only to then say "Hey guys, we answered this question already, and here is the same answer as before... but hey Russ, do you want to chime in again here?" Pointless.

So yeah, I think most of us would still WANT a town hall, but nothing remotely similar to what they've been - which is a 4-hour rambling mess where little of note is said.

#88 Mavairo

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 12:44 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 05 June 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:


Russ has never been one to stand in place for any level of criticism. Given past experience, we should have known that having the forums explode over the last town hall would have caused Russ to take his ball and go home.

Frankly, the town halls have always been a mess, and I think, primarily, that's the fault of NGNG and their very poor moderation. But you could very much hear the exasperation in Russ's voice grow with each town hall until in the last one he sounded nearly broken. I imagine you can only respond to the same dumb questions so many times before even the most even-tempered among us throws their hands up in disgust. The funny part is, NGNG will ask one of those questions, one that has been asked and answered in previous town halls, only to then say "Hey guys, we answered this question already, and here is the same answer as before... but hey Russ, do you want to chime in again here?" Pointless.

So yeah, I think most of us would still WANT a town hall, but nothing remotely similar to what they've been - which is a 4-hour rambling mess where little of note is said.


It's bad when you can not watch meetings for months, and hear the same crap answered again.
It's a combination of poor management on PGI's part for not being willing to utilize people whom would ask tougher AND better questions, and NGNG's lack of willingness to step up their editing, and interviewing skills.

NGNG reminds me a lot of STOked back in the STO days, and that's not a compliment, not even a little. It always felt like amateur hour, obvious shilling, and that's never a good combination.

#89 Lightfoot

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 02:46 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 11:09 PM, said:

well, since that was stated since pretty much inception, I'm glad you got the memo......

Well, I know which mechs to buy now so it's really just a matter of earning 15 to 20 mechs. The rescale will only improve this I think.

#90 cazidin

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 03:01 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 05 June 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:


Russ has never been one to stand in place for any level of criticism. Given past experience, we should have known that having the forums explode over the last town hall would have caused Russ to take his ball and go home.

Frankly, the town halls have always been a mess, and I think, primarily, that's the fault of NGNG and their very poor moderation. But you could very much hear the exasperation in Russ's voice grow with each town hall until in the last one he sounded nearly broken. I imagine you can only respond to the same dumb questions so many times before even the most even-tempered among us throws their hands up in disgust. The funny part is, NGNG will ask one of those questions, one that has been asked and answered in previous town halls, only to then say "Hey guys, we answered this question already, and here is the same answer as before... but hey Russ, do you want to chime in again here?" Pointless.

So yeah, I think most of us would still WANT a town hall, but nothing remotely similar to what they've been - which is a 4-hour rambling mess where little of note is said.


I volunteer as tribute for representing community questions. I don't think anybody else wants this job. Posted Image

#91 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 03:13 PM

View Postcazidin, on 05 June 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:


I volunteer as tribute for representing community questions. I don't think anybody else wants this job. Posted Image

they tried to get me to do it.

I believe my response was akin to "Ah HELL NO".

I got enough "fans" already. It's all yours bro.

#92 Zolaz

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 03:25 PM

Russ needs a new job, like in front of a fry vat. Then he can just listen to the music overhead and wait for the ding telling him the fries are done.



#93 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 04:03 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 05 June 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

they tried to get me to do it.

I believe my response was akin to "Ah HELL NO".

I got enough "fans" already. It's all yours bro.

no no no Bishop i think it was,


#94 Triordinant

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 09:38 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 05 June 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

I believe my response was akin to "Ah HELL NO".



#95 ScarecrowES

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 10:57 PM

View PostMavairo, on 05 June 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:


It's bad when you can not watch meetings for months, and hear the same crap answered again.
It's a combination of poor management on PGI's part for not being willing to utilize people whom would ask tougher AND better questions, and NGNG's lack of willingness to step up their editing, and interviewing skills.

NGNG reminds me a lot of STOked back in the STO days, and that's not a compliment, not even a little. It always felt like amateur hour, obvious shilling, and that's never a good combination.


The difficulty comes, in part, from the specific agenda of the town halls - in that there is NO agenda. There is no regular format or purpose. Most often, you have NGNG leading Russ through a reading of the upcoming month's roadmap, will a little color commentary and inane questions thrown in for measure. Often, NGNG are more impressed by the number of players they have logged onto their stream or whatever crappy craft beer they have available than anything Russ has to say.

Realistically, a brief overview of the upcoming roadmap is probably vital to a state-of-the-game address such as the town hall, so that's fine. Making early announcements for mechs is fine too. That's what gets most people to tune in anyway. But the purpose of the town hall is to encourage debate and learning through community involvement. It should be, by and large, about the interaction of the community and the devs.

In order to get that right, just as you would in political town halls, you have to know which people to allow to steer the dialog. Which people you allow to talk, and which you keep quietly in their seats. It takes prep time. I means the host has to craft a narrative between the message the speaker wants to get out, and the concerns the community want addressed. NGNG seem complete incapable of crafting that narrative. They chose poor questions from the audience, often with completely conflicting narrative directions.

For instance... remember in the last town hall when NGNG chose to relay a question to Russ regarding the drop-off in Steam players after launch and how that might correlate to MWO being too complex a game for most casual players - of course suggesting PGI make the game simpler to appeal to a larger demographic. Then, they immediately turned around and asked a question as to whether PGI was considering adding additional mechanics to account for individual equipment destruction for actuators and other fixed equipment that would have a tangible impact on in-game play - thus suggesting that PGI make the game more realistic and complex.

I could sympathize with the exasperation I heard in Russ's voice as he asked (to paraphrase) "well which is it? Do you want a game that's simplified to appeal to more gamers, or more complex to make the game even more niche? You can't have both!"

Realistically... these town halls need an agenda. There has to be a specific topic we intend to discuss, in addition to all the usual monthly announcements and news. Weapon balance, map creation, community warfare changes, Dekels... one real topic a month. The Dev Logs actually did the "1 topic per event" thing pretty well. You get better community interaction with a narrow focus. Keeps people on-task.

And then we can take questions from the community to expand on that topic. Or then maybe at the end questions related to anything else that's been discussed, or small topics in general. But really, those questions should largely be prescreened... none of these random questions pulled off the first 2 minutes of the town hall chat window.

There are lots of ways these things could be way better for everyone involved, but it's mostly on NGNG to step their game up.

#96 Triordinant

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 04:17 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 05 June 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

There are lots of ways these things could be way better for everyone involved, but it's mostly on NGNG to step their game up.

THIS.

#97 Yellonet

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 05:36 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 05 June 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:


You're in luck, as this is exactly what PGI did. Picked a density that put the largest possible number of mechs at the sweet spot in terms of their current volume to nominal volume, and then rescale all mechs based on that chosen density rating.

AND, you're in luck in that PGI has decided not to merely do a 1:1:1 rescale on all mechs that need sizing up or down. The Grasshopper, for instance, which PGI has felt is plenty tall enough, has to get increased in size, so they intend to buff up the limbs a little bit to get there. Both the Dire Wolf and Warhawk are oversized, but PGI feels those mechs would do better with a minor remodel rather than a simple rescale, so the geo is changing for those mechs. Catapult is getting a completely new model... Awesome is getting a major remodel. And so on.

I think it should offer us some comfort that, for the first time, PGI is actually taking a fully invested approach to getting a situation like this resolved. They did their research before they made any changes. They fully admitted their mistakes and acknowledged the community was right in terms of how far off some of these models were. They're investing a great deal of time and energy not only doing simple scaling, but in some cases creating all-new models to correct the problem. And, unlike any time before, they actually created a standard and are applying it universally. No balancing by dartboard.

Think about the investment they've made into this project. More than any quirk pass... and perhaps more than all major quirk passes combined. More than all the dynamic geo fixes (in fact, they're doing some of that as part of this project too). And this rescale will almost certainly have greater impact to overall balance than any previous action. It's going to be a huge paradigm shift that they'll still be tweaking a year from now, to be sure.
Well.... this sounds great! :) If true, I might even start to buy stuff again :P

#98 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 06:12 AM

View PostTriordinant, on 04 June 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

I'm counting the days until BATTLETECH.

Posted Image


YESSS!!!! This is what I REALLY can't wait for Posted Image

Now, back on topic...

I am really curious to see how the Catapult turns out. The size, new launcher weapon geometry, and the K2's PPC barrels and ballistic barrels in person (not just a screen shot).

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 06 June 2016 - 06:13 AM.


#99 Nyte Kitsune

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 06:17 AM

I admit I'm looking forward to the rescale, some mechs are just way to big for their class, will be nice to see them scaled down to where they should be. Keep in mind that many of the ones that needed rescaling were some of the first ones we got in MWO so its no surprise that some of them were off scale, PGI was more interested in getting them into the game. Of course after the rescale they need to remember not to make anything else too big/small from now on.

Edit: As for the quirks, could care less. I rarely pay attention to quirks with the exception of my sniper builds, which I admit I choose specifically quirked mechs for that role. The rest I usually pilot just because I like the mech, not how OP the quirks are. I rather pilot something I enjoy looking at and runs a build I like.

Edited by Nyte Kitsune, 06 June 2016 - 06:20 AM.


#100 cazidin

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 07:22 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 05 June 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

they tried to get me to do it.

I believe my response was akin to "Ah HELL NO".

I got enough "fans" already. It's all yours bro.


"It's all yours bro"-Bishop Steiner endorsing Cazidin for Community Representative 2016.

Somehow I have this feeling that I'd win such a nomination almost by default...





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