177 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

The only place I do feel volume should differ is between IS and Clan. Because one of the hallmarks of progress is miniaturization, I do feel that the Clans as a whole should probably be about 5% smaller on avg than IS equivalents. I doubt it would happen, but just putting that out there. Omnis are supposed ot be more compact and efficiently designed than traditional Mechs.

I find it interesting that you mention this. I was browsing the 3050 TRO last night and I came across a section on the Summoner which stated that it (a 70 ton Mech) was the biggest (I interpreted that to mean the tallest) of All the Clan Mechs in the initial invasion. It is funny how some and even apparently the writers of that book only seem to see Mechs in one dimension; height.

[Ace Selin]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

The only place I do feel volume should differ is between IS and Clan. Because one of the hallmarks of progress is miniaturization, I do feel that the Clans as a whole should probably be about 5% smaller on avg than IS equivalents. I doubt it would happen, but just putting that out there. Omnis are supposed ot be more compact and efficiently designed than traditional Mechs.

What about looking at this from a different angle. The Clans became advanced enough to use many light weight materials the IS did not have. However the Clan scientists weren't aware their warriors had to fight in mechs of specific tonnages and so whilst the mechs were designed with light weight materials their size also increased to offset these materials to ensure they met the weight capacities that their warriors required. So Clan mechs are actually 20% larger by volume.

[Davers]

Ace Selin, on 04 June 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

What about looking at this from a different angle. The Clans became advanced enough to use many light weight materials the IS did not have. However the Clan scientists weren't aware their warriors had to fight in mechs of specific tonnages and so whilst the mechs were designed with light weight materials their size also increased to offset these materials to ensure they met the weight capacities that their warriors required. So Clan mechs are actually 20% larger by volume.

Well, PGI originally made the Clan mechs larger than IS mechs for balance. The reason the Nova is so large was because Clan medium/small lasers did not share Ghost Heat upon release.

[Cy Mitchell]

Davers, on 04 June 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well, PGI originally made the Clan mechs larger than IS mechs for balance. The reason the Nova is so large was because Clan medium/small lasers did not share Ghost Heat upon release.

If that is true then it sort of proves that playing with sizing to try to achieve balance is a bad idea. Look at all the quirks the Nova has to have to not be total junk. I am pretty sure that it and the Summoner are the most quirked Clan Mechs and among the most quirked Mechs in the game and they are still not top tier.

[Xetelian]

I'm on pins and needles over the resize of the AWS. I am praying they go with a more Zeus sized model instead of the uber Wide one we have now.

AWS needs more than just a shrink, it needs a whole new imagining, it is 80 tons and HUGE like it was 90 or 100 tons.

The barn door is broken, needs fixing.

[Davers]

Rampage, on 04 June 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

If that is true then it sort of proves that playing with sizing to try to achieve balance is a bad idea. Look at all the quirks the Nova has to have to not be total junk. I am pretty sure that it and the Summoner are the most quirked Clan Mechs and among the most quirked Mechs in the game and they are still not top tier.

Well, Clan mechs have received nerf after nerf since they were released and quirks didn't even exist back then. It's a very different game now then when the Nova first came out.

[Xetelian]

Davers, on 04 June 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

Well, Clan mechs have received nerf after nerf since they were released and quirks didn't even exist back then. It's a very different game now then when the Nova first came out.

Yeah, I agree. It is a very different game today than when people were firing blue death all over the place

NVA is one I'm hoping gets down to SadCat size or so, a lot of mediums are MUCH too big and the NVA is EBJ sized.

[Alex Morgaine]

Not the best solution but a way to keep upscaling from breaking low tier Mechs could be to make them tall and thin... A rail thin but tall vindicator might be worth if it becomes harder to target slim parts

[Bishop Steiner]

Frosty Brand, on 04 June 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

Not the best solution but a way to keep upscaling from breaking low tier Mechs could be to make them tall and thin... A rail thin but tall vindicator might be worth if it becomes harder to target slim parts

Please no.

I remember just how horrible the Centurion looked in mechcommander. I don't want a plague of those running around here

[cazidin]

Jungle Rhino, on 04 June 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

It's PGI they will eff it up - but good on them for trying nonetheless

btw I love my big fatty Awesome But then my primary concern playing this game is looking cool and shooting pew pew as opposed to actually being competitive... so I appreciate the POV

To be fair to PGI. They have good and competent staff, it's just a few of their... more infamous employees that we direct our negative comments at and that have, in the past, proposed or implemented truly mediocre mechanics.

Davers, on 04 June 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well, PGI originally made the Clan mechs larger than IS mechs for balance. The reason the Nova is so large was because Clan medium/small lasers did not share Ghost Heat upon release.

So... PGI used... SCIENCE? Also is that why the Warhawk and Dire Wolf are so large?

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

Please no.

I remember just how horrible the Centurion looked in mechcommander. I don't want a plague of those running around here

Mwuhahaha... AHAHAHAHA! AHAHAHAHA!!! /lightning. /Dramatic music that escalates as my maniacal laughter echoes out into the periphery.

[Chuck Jager]

For some reason I have a feeling that the worst offenders of size will be moved a bit to the middle.

High mount hardpoints and hit boxes that lead to easy twisting will still stay the same, but those mechs may loose structure points in quirks.

I think that IS may see duration quirks being shifted down because of the last nerf to clan range and some newer mechs with more hardpoints. Clan will probably feel some pain with the Kodiaks. I do not want to start too many fights with whose mech or which faction deserves what etc etc.

[Stephen Tregare]

I think the volumetric rescaling is a good partial idea. The TROs, if I'm not mistaken, include the heights of the mechs. Use that for these machines, then use the volume scaling to set the y and z axis sizes. Seems easy to me.

[Bishop Steiner]

Stephen Tregare, on 04 June 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

I think the volumetric rescaling is a good partial idea. The TROs, if I'm not mistaken, include the heights of the mechs. Use that for these machines, then use the volume scaling to set the y and z axis sizes. Seems easy to me.

Well for th most p part you would be mistaken. Very few have ever been given official Canon height.

[Volthorne]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Well for th most p part you would be mistaken. Very few have ever been given official Canon height.

And for the ones that have been given canonical heights, the numbers are literally all over the place and make literally zero sense.

[Xetelian]

I personally feel the biggest offenders to size are mostly in the medium bracket.

Mediums don't need nerfing, even if they get shrank a little.

Assaults are also pretty awful too but mediums are sooo much worse.

I get that the GAR needs to be rather large, but can they shrink horizontally then? Same with the AWS and STK and even the WHK.

Nothing under 90 tons should be anywhere near as big as 100 tons. I shouldn't glance at a WHK and think it is a DWF for a second before I take a focused look at it.

I'd say, leave the AS7 and DWF large, buff structure to compensate if needed. Shrink everything else relative to those sizes.

[Lightfoot]

Looking forward to seeing the changes. Started an Inner Sphere alter-ego character to pass the time (Clan mechs are too expensive to earn twice!). It just became obvious that Faction play would only ever allow you to use Clan or Inner Sphere, but not both so half my mechs would be PUG-only. This has been fun though. Tier 5 lasted 4 matches.

[Andi Nagasia]

Russ wants a Clean Slate, even he admits how they original did Scale was wrong,
after Scaling(in the Pipeline) is a Revisit of IS to Clan weapon Balance,

i have hope, and im sure ill love the NVAs new Size, i just hope they dont remove all its Quirks,

[Bishop Steiner]

Lightfoot, on 04 June 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

Looking forward to seeing the changes. Started an Inner Sphere alter-ego character to pass the time (Clan mechs are too expensive to earn twice!). It just became obvious that Faction play would only ever allow you to use Clan or Inner Sphere, but not both so half my mechs would be PUG-only. This has been fun though. Tier 5 lasted 4 matches.

well, since that was stated since pretty much inception, I'm glad you got the memo......

[Yellonet]

Wouldn't the sensible thing to do be to:

• Come up with an average density for IS and (possibly a different average density for) Clan Mechs.
  
• Resize each mech according to the above equally in all three dimensions, except for the mechs which are too wide, too tall and so on which get resized according to their needs.

• I think that most 3D-modeling tools can display the volume of a model so it shouldn't be difficult to get the numbers right.
  
• The result would be very fair as all mechs would have the proper volume according to their weight.
  
• It shouldn't be too much work as for most mechs it would be the whole model that would change, no individual parts would need to be reworked.

[YourSaviorLegion]

I'm waiting for the final nail in the coffin... I mean, hey wanna buy a mech pack?