99 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

It's not a plus that IS get quirks, it's to get them on an even ground. Aside from a few IS mech that could lose their quirks. All Weapon duration quirks need to go, small mech with ridiculous reduced duration like the locust/spider with only 1 nrg point need to be refunded or come with a warning that you are going to suck. these quirks just dont make sense.

As for energy weapon duration, it's easier to use if you tend to be aggressive. I personally would only keep IS SPL and IS LPL if i could and i would use cersl cerml cermpl cerppc the rest of the time. I can do so much more with 5 cerml than 5ml.

The Clan LRM clearly is inferior outside of blinding someone already engage with a teammate. Clan UAC are on par with IS AC, twice the output damage, even spread is twice the damage.

Edited by DAYLEET, 05 June 2016 - 12:39 PM.

[BigJim]

Revis Volek, on 05 June 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

How can you say something is OP when you have never even drove it yourself?

Scout Derek, on 05 June 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

you sound new so I'll tell you this:

Get in a clan mech for once, and see how it is.

I know I may sound rude and whatnot, but you don't have a right to call out something that you think is OP when you haven't even tested the thing itself.

But anyhow since I answered the Topic question and not the post question, I'll get to that.

Um... Both these posts are pretty rude tbh, particularly you Derek - normally you're fairly level headed but you've both just dived in here without reading or trying to figure out the English; The dude asked a perfectly legit question... "How are clan mechs not OP?".
Why not give the straight answer? He hasn't said "Clan mechs are OP". He asked, how are they not, given the larger amount of hardpoints and Alpha damage numbers?

There is an answer to the above question, so why not politely furnish the OP with it?

Edited by BigJim, 05 June 2016 - 12:58 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

Marmon Rzohr, on 05 June 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

IMO it is possible to balance IS vs Clans. To achieve perfect balance PGI would simply need to do several rapid revisions of quirks to slightly trim down the top IS mechs and some of the Clan builds like the Kodiak 3 while buffing the underpowered IS and Clan mechs. With balance changes every 2 months, I'm confident they could to it in 6 months.

The coming heat system changes are likely to make things quite unpredictable though.

Please define 'balance' in this scenario

It is not just an us v them binary problem you are talking about, although many perceive it to be simply that.

You need to balance the same core assets (mechs, weapons) for:

1) A game mode featuring mixed tech teams playing 4 (Russ has stated flat out that he wants 5) match types across 15 maps (14 once the redesign Frozen City replaces current Frozen City/Frozen City Night) that offer a wide range of possible engagement zones at numerous ranges, and are both open enough and generally free of other constraints (need to protect orbital canon or defend Drop Zones) that allow maneuver warfare to take place

2) A game mode featuring homogenous tech teams, on maps that generally feature constricted terrain, and further anchor players with the need to defend/take non-mech objectives including the need to protect--or at least not allow the enemy to overrun (not necessarily the same thing)--drop-zones. On said maps ranges are generally short, time-to-close is minimal, and the ability to conduct a true battle of maneuver is, at best, hampered.

And scouting. Homogenous tech, don't need to defend a drop-zone, do need to capture resource tokens and have/prevent one mech enter the 'escape zone'.

For that matter the scouting mode needs to be balanced. I've seen FW come to a dead halt as soon as one side unlocks the Long Tom. Nobody wants to drop against it, and nobody on the team that has it wants to drop Ghost Drops. We need population! With population we could have two scouting modes running parallel so that both teams could have Long Tome. Wouldn't that be a...


Wait for it


blast?

[Bulletsponge0]

BigJim, on 05 June 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Um... Both these posts are pretty rude tbh, particularly you Derek - normally you're fairly level headed but you've both just dived in here without reading or trying to figure out the English; The dude asked a perfectly legit question... "How are clan mechs not OP?".
Why not give the straight answer? He hasn't said "Clan mechs are OP". He asked, how are they not, given the larger amount of hardpoints and Alpha damage numbers?

There is an answer to the above question, so why not politely furnish the OP with it?

Its a loaded question though. He's asking it from a position of "Clan mechs ARE OP" and seemingly wants people to try to prove it to him that they aren't. yes, the way they answered the question was les than perfectly polite, but considering the history of "OMG CLANZ ARE OP PLZ NERF" on the board, its perfectly understandable why they answered like that.

[DrxAbstract]

Mcgral18, on 05 June 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Also blanket nerfs

There's Mcgral and the aliens guy - I was beginning to lose hope.

[no one]

I play both Clan and IS, and I'll say the major advantage of Clan 'Mechs is this -
There are a few chassis with an overwhelming number of hard points.
The weapons are light, and when you have Endo and Fero you save space.

Those factors basically mean that in the pick-your-hardpoint-scheme cases like the crow you get to bracket weapons into alpha ranges between.... 2xLPL and wads of small lasers, usually. SRMs sometimes. Gauss or massed uAC/5s on assaults and heavies. Clan 'Mechs are effective enough, but honestly pretty boring since they have no real role division and a limited number of useful weapons.

Clan XLs are nice when you have a 'Mech that isn't all CT; you won't die instantly to side torso loss. IS structure/armor quirks up your survival time and weapon retention so you're deadly longer.

There are still top-tier and bottom-feeder 'Mechs on both sides. Clan bottom feeders are usually over-engined 'Mechs without Endo of Ferro, though some things suffer from hardpoint starvation or placement. Bottom feeder IS 'Mechs are almost universally hardpoint starvation or placement issues. Some suffer from 'I am too light and my weapon needs too much ammo/space' or other weird issues of the fracked up heat system.

Honestly I have no real hope that 'balance' in MWO will ever evolve beyond an alpha measuring contest given the broke-*** core game systems.

Edited by no one, 05 June 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bulletsponge0, on 05 June 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Also

Doesn't IS have a higher heat capacity, while clan has a slightly higher heat dissipation rate?

Results in a wash or a net positive for Clans more often than not, given the large numbers of heatsinks the Clans bring.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Because in the grand scheme of things, it is inconsequential.

I'd agree with you, if not for the fact that people are demanding a nerf to the agility of the KDK-3.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koujo, on 05 June 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

This is not a troll. I've played off and on for a long time now. I've only played IS mechs and never really took the time to learn about clan mechs. What disadvantages do they have that counter balance their crazy number of hardpoints and alpha damage?

"QUIRKS"

And really bad balancing by PGI.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 05 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'd agree with you, if not for the fact that people are demanding a nerf to the agility of the KDK-3.

Those people are bad and wrong.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 June 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

"QUIRKS"

And really bad balancing by PGI.

Not to mention almost complete lack of imagination.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 05 June 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Not to mention almost complete lack of imagination.

Imagination takes effort. And the brain trust here is deathly allergic to expending effort, apparently.

[Scout Derek]

BigJim, on 05 June 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Um... Both these posts are pretty rude tbh, particularly you Derek - normally you're fairly level headed but you've both just dived in here without reading or trying to figure out the English; The dude asked a perfectly legit question... "How are clan mechs not OP?".
Why not give the straight answer? He hasn't said "Clan mechs are OP". He asked, how are they not, given the larger amount of hardpoints and Alpha damage numbers?

There is an answer to the above question, so why not politely furnish the OP with it?

I did say it was rude did I not? I say it so because it makes me upset. look at the content within his post:

Koujo, on 05 June 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

This is not a troll. I've played off and on for a long time now. I've only played IS mechs and never really took the time to learn about clan mechs. What disadvantages do they have that counter balance their crazy number of hardpoints and alpha damage?

When you're asking what counters a clan mech for being OP and say crazy amount of hard points and alpha damage, and not driving one, it makes you think:

Why hasn't he tried one out, hell, just ONE match in them? you know? And there's one literally in mechlab that he can go test drive for free.

That's why it's rude, it's because he has the time to make a post about it, yet it takes about the same time to get into a match and see what disadvantages it has that prevents it from being OP.

Least I explained, because I had a reason to be rude.

In short, being rude because OP took time to make a post rather than trying out the mechs that may or may not be " OP".

oh, and I did explain below the text you quoted from me.

[Bulletsponge0]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Results in a wash or a net positive for Clans more often than not, given the large numbers of heatsinks the Clans bring.

it does allow the IS to alpha more times before overheating, while limiting the number of times clan can alpha before having to wait to cool...

granted, over a 15 minutes long match, it would even out...but in the heat of the moment, the ability to fire 2 or 3 alphas versus 1 or 2 alphas is a big advantage for the IS

[Y E O N N E]

Bulletsponge0, on 05 June 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

it does allow the IS to alpha more times before overheating, while limiting the number of times clan can alpha before having to wait to cool...

granted, over a 15 minutes long match, it would even out...but in the heat of the moment, the ability to fire 2 or 3 alphas versus 1 or 2 alphas is a big advantage for the IS

Both sides end up with about the same heat cap, but Clans have better dissipation. The goal was to turn heat into a soft cap for the Clans so that their long range lasers aren't superior at all brackets, which is what they were before the nerfs. The IS can Alpha one more time...but they also can't hit that target at 445 meters with 52-61 points of hit-scan.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Results in a wash or a net positive for Clans more often than not, given the large numbers of heatsinks the Clans bring.

Only, only in mechs that are big enough/have enough free space to socket beyond around 22 DHS, and I'd argue not even then. Light mechs and medium mechs suffer from the lack of meaningful boost to their heat disipation, and suffering all the negative effects of having a severely impacted maximum heat capacity.

Heat generation is always going to outstripe heat disipation in this game because it was intentional design by PGI to avoid a heat neutral gameplay. As a result, heat generation plays a tremendous role. If you can only fire three times before overheating, and dump heat only slightly faster OR fire five times before overheating, but still cool off almost as fast as the other mech, the second option wins out in almost every situation. It is far more sustainable potential with the later case, and everything you do will have a far lower impact on your heat scale meaning you can afford to be more free with shooting willy nilly.



As to the OP....

Clan Negatives:

• Ghost heat linking is funky and excessive as compared to IS mechs as not only medium and small lasers are linked, but ER and Pulse versions of them as well.
  
• Clan laser range is 1.5 listed for not only ERSLas and ERMLas, but SPLas and MPLas as well.
  
• Far lower heat capacity with hotter weapon systems.
  
• Extremely long burn durations on some lasers (ERLLas) or burn durations that are stupidly long in comparison to IS versions (IS LPLas burns faster than a Clan ERSLas, let alone a Clan LPLas).
  
• Omnimechs often suffer from free tonnage to mount sufficient firepower for mechs of their size (IE: SMN or GAR) short of resorting to laserboating smalls.
  
• The ability to mix and match omnipods is no guarantee of having enough hardpoints to begin with (IE: SHC, MLX), meaning those hardpoint starved mechs are incredibly limited with the omnimech mechlab limits on customization.
  
• Hardwired equipment in Omnimechs further limits customization in Omni chassis.
  
• Inefficient autocannons means the damage can, and will, be spread against competent opposition.
  
• Clan LRM launchers can be essentially disabled with the presence of just one or two AMS.
  
• General lack of durability quirks means that Clan mechs, especially if their CT is easy enough to hit, are fragile as compared to structure/armor quirked IS mechs.

Clan Positives:

• Mech designs look incredible, usually.
  
• If the omnipod exists for the mech, you can tailor the loadout exactly like you want it. Tonnage and free critical slots permitting.
  
• Clan mechs tend to move faster than IS versions - outside of the Lights for ... reasons.
  
• Blue HUD.
  
• Clan XL means that if your mech CAN shield its CT well enough, the mech can survive a side torso loss.
  
• Each laser deals more total damage than IS versions at longer ranges. Due note that this goes hand in hand with the above negatives.
  
• Clan UAC are fun as hell to use. Inefficient unless boated, but EXTREMELY fun!

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 June 2016 - 02:46 PM.

[Lightfoot]

One word. Mechlab.

Some mechs can't be fixed in Mechlab, but most Inner Sphere mechs can be made as good or better than Clan. Keep tweaking till you create a masterpiece of mech engineering.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 June 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Only, only in mechs that are big enough/have enough free space to socket beyond around 22 DHS, and I'd argue not even then. Light mechs and medium mechs suffer from the lack of meaningful boost to their heat disipation, and suffering all the negative effects of having a severely impacted maximum heat capacity.

All of the Clan 'Mechs that need the cap can fit it, easily. It might limit you to a range bracket, but that's no different than hard-points on IS 'Mechs limiting them to a particular range bracket. The only one that's really hurting here is the Mist Lynx.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

All of the Clan 'Mechs that need the cap can fit it, easily. It might limit you to a range bracket, but that's no different than hard-points on IS 'Mechs limiting them to a particular range bracket. The only one that's really hurting here is the Mist Lynx.

People don't want to say it, because they immediately expect people to jump off the rails and make thirteen jumps of logic that lead to an incorrect conclusion, but no. I'm not saying it was unwarranted in its case, but the ACH was impacted, too.

Now, in its case, given the firepower potential it has, I suppose it is an acceptable loss. You still feel it, however. Pre-heat changes and post, the sustainable firepower potential of the mech dropped by about an alpha strike. The mech is plenty powerful as is, but it most certainly felt it.

The KFX, however, suffers from it, as does the Adder. Anyone wanna tell me those mechs are too powerful? Mechs with sub-10 in engine DHS really feel it, since the dissipation improvement on external dubs only really compensate for the missing true dubs but with the slashed heat cap. Mechs that can't carry enough DHS for the firepower they're expected to bring to support their weight in a clan group also feel it. The SHC actually feels it, too, despite its extremely limited maximum energy complement. The Nova would feel it as well, if it didn't have some seriously god-like heat related quirks.

Once you get away from the mediums, and start with heavies, it is less of a problem. Unless you're in a Summoner and also trying to cram in acceptable non-SRM related firepower. Then you're screwed again.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 June 2016 - 03:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 June 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

People don't want to say it, because they immediately expect people to jump off the rails and make thirteen jumps of logic that lead to an incorrect conclusion, but no. Not just the Mist Lynx. Believe it or not, the ACH, too.

The ACH isn't suffering unless the Firestarter is also suffering. Very similar heat profiles, damage and range superiority on the ACH, rate of fire superiority on the FS9. I don't even see the Firestarter getting used anymore in serious drops. It's Oxide for brawl and Jenner IIC for everything else unless you need ECM. Then it's an ACH.

The Adder and Kit Fox are bad because they are slow and huge and lightly armored, and that's a fundamental design flaw that can only be compensated for by being excessively dangerous for their flaws. But...I can still bring an Adder with 5x cERML and 20 cDHS with 1.3 tons left over, and that's a solid poke. Or 1x cLPL and 4x cERML with 16 cDHS, and that's an amazing poke for a 35 ton 'Mech. Point out any Inner Sphere light that can bring 35-41 damage at a lowest-common-denominator optimum of 445 meters and still have room for that many heat-sinks. There isn't one. That's a crazy high amount of cap and dissipation for a Light 'Mech and there are no IS Lights that can do that and still have firepower worth mentioning. The closest the IS get is the Wolfhound with larges and mediums, but it doesn't pack anywhere near the number of heat-sinks.

I don't feel overly hot at all in my Shadow Cats, they are right in line with what I would expect from them given the load-outs I have (2x cERPPC, 2x cLPL, 3x cERML + 1xcUAC/10, 3xcSRM4+2xcMPL). They are very manageable.

Ergo, I stand by what I said. They aren't really hurting for heat, they are just inflexible in their role. They have much bigger issues than heat management.