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'pay 2 Lose' Hero Mechs


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#1 Felio

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 11:09 AM

I meant to start this during the hero and champion sale and event, but oh well.

(On a related subject, in mech packs, the special + variant is almost routinely the worst. They are too numerous to list in any detail)

A Pay 2 Lose hero is, in my view, not simply a hero variant of a bad chassis. It's a bad variant of any chassis.

But what really inspired me to make this thread is a twofer: A bad hero of a bad chassis, the St. Ives' Blues. It's like any other Vindicator -- light armor and a low engine cap -- only with fewer hardpoints. Oh, it gets a minor engine bump, but not nearly as much as the 1AA. Its main benefit is that with a 250, you don't need external heat sinks. Then again, the standard heat sinks, standard structure and standard armor it comes with leave plenty of room.

The Ember. While the FS9-S, K and A were running around like Inner Sphere Arctic Cheetahs before they were cool, boating small or medium lasers and vaporizing Atlas rear armor, the Ember was plinking away with its machine guns.

I know some people like to romanticize ammo explosions from MGs, but while you were staring deeply into your opponent's foot actuators, someone with real weapons destroyed his CT outright (or perhaps yours) in less time and with less risk. And that person was actually useful for the entire match, not just when there were exposed components containing ammo. Fun fact: Machine guns don't do any extra damage to internal structure. Critical hits do damage to equipment only.

You are better off with unused tonnage than you are by filling it with machine guns. They are more likely to lead you to a fatal distraction than to victory against anyone.

For a long time the Ember didn't even have machine gun quirks, just languishing with -10% laser duration while Firestarters with more lasers got better quirks for them. Now that it has a +25% machine gun rate-of-fire quirk, it has also been given +15% flamer range, which really seems like a troll.

The Huggin. Repeat everything I just said about machine guns, then add that this thing doesn't even have energy hard points. Not that you need them, exactly, but light mechs generally depend on them for firepower, and this one doesn't have much to make up for their absence. And it has two 20-tube missile launchers, for some reason. Like PGI wants you to make an LRM40 Raven. Or maybe some kind of LRM20 + SRM6 abomination.

And the RVN-3L has ECM, obviously. That seems like a cheap shot to make against the Huggin, but I'll make it anyway. We could make the same criticism of the CDA-X5 because the 3M has ECM, but the X-5 isn't bad, it's just weird that it is the only mech in the game without AMS. The Anasi doesn't have the SDR-5D's ECM, either, and it only escapes this list because the 5K and 5V are even worse.

I believe there are other contenders, such as the Pretty Baby, but I am less familiar with them. I think an honorable mention goes to the IV-Four for focusing on low-slung ballistics, the weight of which also prevents you from taking advantage of the Quickdraw's speed, so you may as well be piloting one of a gazillion other heavies.

#2 SteelMantis

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 11:35 AM

The way all hero mechs should be in my opinion considering the alternative.

#3 Bud Crue

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 11:47 AM

View PostFelio, on 03 June 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

I believe there are other contenders, such as the Pretty Baby, but I am less familiar with them. I think an honorable mention goes to the IV-Four for focusing on low-slung ballistics, the weight of which also prevents you from taking advantage of the Quickdraw's speed, so you may as well be piloting one of a gazillion other heavies.


You take it back! There is no such thing as a bad Quickdraw variant!!! :(

#4 DAYLEET

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 01:24 PM

The Death Kneel is so damn strong it only get 10% energy range and only 2 mech module.

#5 Moldur

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 01:29 PM

You have a point, but at the same time, it's a strategy to avoid pay to win accusations. At least to some contradictory extent, PGI has usually made exclusive variants, be they pay wall, customer loyalty, pre-orders, etc not that great. Way back to the phoenix package, the phoenix variants weren't usually the best ones. They were probably one of the worst. It sort of sucks, because you get the exclusive version and it's not that great (or useless as the case may be,) but at the same time, it's fair for everyone else.

Again, you're not wrong, but I'd like to think there is a reason, or at least a happy accident on PGI's part.


except the oxide.

#6 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 01:43 PM

Particular hero mechs can be both the worst and best mech at various points in time.

The Ember when it was first dropped (prior to the MG nerf) was a terror to behold, and the Hugin originally had a set of SRM quirks so OP that I would watch someone solo entire assault lances with them once or twice a night.

The St. Ives has always been a bad mech. In fact, it's the only hero mech where I know more people who sold it than who still own it.

The Heavy Metal has reached a point where it is not necessarily pay-to-lose, it's just that there is nothing it does that one of the other Highlanders can't do better so there is no real point in spending money on it.

The Pretty Baby really is P2L however.

#7 Dino Might

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 01:45 PM

View PostDAYLEET, on 03 June 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

The Death Kneel is so damn strong it only get 10% energy range and only 2 mech module.



Death's Knell vs SIB is a fun match.

Posted Image

#8 Y E O N N E

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 01:46 PM

Black Widow and Spirit Bear are definitely not P2L. I would even say the Legend Killer and Bounty Hunter II are very, very competent.

#9 Wingbreaker

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 01:59 PM

The world's saddest parade, also known as the brothers of bad.

Posted Image


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Edited by Wingbreaker, 03 June 2016 - 01:59 PM.


#10 JC Daxion

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:03 PM

There are two kinda people in this world..


those that love machine guns,,,

and those that don't..



And i love me machine guns! Maybe not the best high tier weapon, but they can really wreck stuff, especially later in the match. Plink away at open torso's and watch them loose weapon after weapon.. Both mechs you mentioned can be killers in the right hands.. But then again so can most mechs..

It's the pilot and team work more times than not. But not everyone is good in every mech, and many people have a hard time being good in those you mentioned..

#11 Alistair Winter

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:05 PM

Remember when the Ember was considered hilariously OP and was crushing mechs all over the battlefield?

Pepperidge farm remembers.

As for the Huginn... I am still sad that they made the Raven hero mech such an unbelievable one trick pony. Whoever is responsible for designing hero mechs at PGI sure knows how to flush money down the toilet. "Hey, what if we make a hardpoint starved Awesome with only 2 energy hardpoints not located in the head? That should be fun, right?"

#12 Clydewinder

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:11 PM

I like my Vindicator SIB and the 1AA - but I like the Dragons and Pretty Baby too, so take that into account.

Vindicator SIB with 3 MPL and 2 SRM 6 is a fun brawler

Worst Hero mechs right now are Heavy Metal and Dragon Slayer

Edited by Clydewinder, 03 June 2016 - 02:15 PM.


#13 DAYLEET

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:12 PM

View PostMoldur, on 03 June 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

You have a point, but at the same time, it's a strategy to avoid pay to win accusations.

its way, WAY, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too late for that excuse.

#14 JC Daxion

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:17 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 03 June 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:



As for the Huginn... I am still sad that they made the Raven hero mech such an unbelievable one trick pony. Whoever is responsible for designing hero mechs at PGI sure knows how to flush money down the toilet. "Hey, what if we make a hardpoint starved Awesome with only 2 energy hardpoints not located in the head? That should be fun, right?"




Heh, the only reason why i bought the huggin was because it was the SRM+,machine gun one trick pony.. though i have seen some people run them with an AC with decent results.. It just need to return it's ballistic Range quirk IMO

#15 Bud Crue

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:20 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 03 June 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

Black Widow and Spirit Bear are definitely not P2L. I would even say the Legend Killer and Bounty Hunter II are very, very competent.


I'd add Ilya to that as well. I haven't been around long enough but I have read enough threads to know that back in the day, many considered this one of the "go to" ballistics mech. I still think it is excellent.
Firebrand too; also Sparky. Flame certainly isn't P2L either, certainly not the worst Dragon.

#16 DrxAbstract

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:23 PM

View PostKael Posavatz, on 03 June 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Particular hero mechs can be both the worst and best mech at various points in time.

The Ember when it was first dropped (prior to the MG nerf) was a terror to behold, and the Hugin originally had a set of SRM quirks so OP that I would watch someone solo entire assault lances with them once or twice a night.

The St. Ives has always been a bad mech. In fact, it's the only hero mech where I know more people who sold it than who still own it.

The Heavy Metal has reached a point where it is not necessarily pay-to-lose, it's just that there is nothing it does that one of the other Highlanders can't do better so there is no real point in spending money on it.

The Pretty Baby really is P2L however.

The Ember has never been a terror in any iteration. Not when it first came out, not when Mguns had higher DPS, not after The Quirkening and it still isnt after all the quirk passes. The JR7-F has been superior to the Ember from day one, even after the FS9-A and FS9-S surpassed it. The JR7-F has always been better than the Ember and it still is... Which puts the Ember in the same tragedy bracket as the IV-Four, only a little above what happened to the Huginn.

That said, the current trend in MWO with Hero Mechs being sub-par was traditionally referenced by PGI as being a "trade off"-- More C-Bills at the expense of optimal loadout potential via 'unique' hard points... Which completely spat in the face of logic as the Hero Mechs' collective inadequacies likely cost you more C-Bills than the 30% Bonus would net you and turns it into a self-defeating system with the perception of gain rather than actual gain, further perpetuating PGI's goal of clamping actual C-Bill income that forces people to buy Premium Time to get anywhere...


/tinfoil hat. Posted Image

Edited by DrxAbstract, 03 June 2016 - 02:25 PM.


#17 S 0 L E N Y A

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:26 PM

Hero mechs are like anything else.
There are some that are absolute monsters. There are some that do not really stand out from the pack. Then there are some that should come with a full refund option which can be exercisied at any time.

#18 PAINLESS 42

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:26 PM

Huggin lets me channel my inner Max Zorin, so your argument is invalid.



#19 Xetelian

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:28 PM

They need to redo all the heroes.

#20 Mcgral18

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 02:39 PM

You're wrong on a few points...mainly the Ember being, bar none, the best Light mech at one point in time and a very strong argument for P2W (along with Dragon Slayer and potentially DakkaMets in an earlier era)

You're also wrong about Crits.
They deal 15% bonus damage, and MGs crit for 9x damage. While you deal 0.08 damage normally, you Crit for .72 damage, thus dealing bonus 0.108 real damage per Crit.
Now, keep in mind the MGs used to ALWAYS deal 0.1 damage and they had the same 9x dam multiplier.

Now, they're rubbish and the Ember is a sad shell of what used to be the best Light (though, competition with the Jenner) in the game.

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 June 2016 - 05:06 PM.






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