289 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Scout Derek, on 07 June 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

Care to share why?

I am half kidding. I don't like macos but the realist in me hopes that game play mechanics are made to not give macros any advantage, or that macros are included in the game.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Mystere, on 07 June 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

I will summarize for you my position on macros since Day 1. PGI allowing macros enables me and others to use alternative devices capable of aggregating basic keyboard presses and mouse actions into higher-level constructs, thus allowing us to spend more brain power in other things. Just because you do not have cool toys and are mentally restricted to "low-level keyboard and mouse button presses" does not mean everyone else should be.

I’m not here to tell you how to play, whatever gets you through the game. I just though this answer was a bit contrived. Anyone whose brain is overworked playing MWO, should probably do the work.

Let’s face it, you are not going to the results you describe from using macros, if anything they are likely dull your edge by pulling you out of the game, the same reason nascar drivers don’t use automatics or antilock brakes. Although I have heard that some of the hardcore esports players get the benefits you are seeking with Adderall, which I believe is also allowed in MWO.

[FuDawg]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 June 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

I’m not here to tell you how to play, whatever gets you through the game. I just though this answer was a bit contrived. Anyone whose brain is overworked playing MWO, should probably do the work.

Let’s face it, you are not going to the results you describe from using macros, if anything they are likely dull your edge by pulling you out of the game, the same reason nascar drivers don’t use automatics or antilock brakes. Although I have heard that some of the hardcore esports players get the benefits you are seeking with Adderall, which I believe is also allowed in MWO.

When I stop laughing... Imma try and comment on this... I wouldn't look for the comment any time soon

[Troutmonkey]

Moldur, on 07 June 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ok, so you guys shouldn't have any issue with pulling out macros if they don't affect anything right? Why bother with the unknown factor, right?

1. They are difficult to detect
2. Some people use them for accessibility reasons
3. Some people use them to get functions on other inputs working more appropriately (Joysticks and Pedals)

[627]

Well we are on page 8 after a day and my point from the very first answer stiill stands, there was still not a single example of a macro and how it does something better than by hand.

Oh yes, the infamous gauss macro, that'll let you shoot with no cooldown or a simple click! madness!

But if you look at it and what it does: It presses the firing group for a defined time and then release. So whenever you use that macro you will shoot, no matter what. But you will shoot after 0.75ish seconds, not instantly. And that is enough time for your fellow teammate to cross your view. or the enemy to hide. Or or or.

Nobody uses this macro, it is crap. It is the bogeyman for so many bad players that got foxed up by a good shot.

There are only 2 macros that really get used by people, first the tag trigger, hardly gamebreaking and second all forms of stagger fire for ACs. And for everyone who understands basic game mechanics in this game it should be clear that staggering your ACs is a bad thing. And if you don't believe me ask PGI why they staggered Clan UACs into multishot guns. Hint: to nerf them for balancing out their clan advantages.

So in the end, this discussion like so many before it brought not a single reason why macros should be banned.

Edited by 627, 07 June 2016 - 10:19 PM.

[Burke IV]

Tarogato, on 07 June 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

And then ban the people who can headshot you at 700m without a zoom module because they have very large high resolution monitors.

Andi Nagasia, on 07 June 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

well i guess we are ganna have to also Ban:

4) Joy Sticks,

These are good ideas tbh. The thing with macros is that its letting your computer play for you and that is the path to a bad place. Where macros ends and hacks begin is a grey area. When you play agains macros and lose you feel bad because "hey why didnt i get one aswell and i might have won" this is also bad. People want to feel ike it was a combat of skil and honor relex vs reflex and timing vs timing. Can you ever really with macros?

[627]

Burke IV, on 07 June 2016 - 10:43 PM, said:

These are good ideas tbh. The thing with macros is that its letting your computer play for you and that is the path to a bad place. Where macros ends and hacks begin is a grey area. When you play agains macros and lose you feel bad because "hey why didnt i get one aswell and i might have won" this is also bad. People want to feel ike it was a combat of skil and honor relex vs reflex and timing vs timing. Can you ever really with macros?

Macros are not magic. You highly overestimate what a macro can do. These are *simple* scripts that press some keys in a given time, nothing more.
You can't aim better, it is no wallhack or anything. Macros lead to nothing and there is no grey area between a macro and a cheat, this is exaggerated drama about a simple thing people seem to not understand.

[Moldur]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 June 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

the catch is that there is no game like MWO so this isnt accurate,
the only games like MWO are WoT and WarThunder, By the way, Marcos are allowed there as well,
the only times their now allowed is for Spamming Text in the Chat window, to theirs that,

Troutmonkey, on 07 June 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

1. They are difficult to detect
2. Some people use them for accessibility reasons
3. Some people use them to get functions on other inputs working more appropriately (Joysticks and Pedals)

You guys bring up excellent points. In a perfect world, PGI would have some endorsed programs for macros and scripts, or a better in-game ui for these purposes, and be able to filter out the rest. PGI would also align their own mechanics so that one thing (like double tap) doesn't conflict with some other thing (like ghost heat.) If anyone could bring to light if that is intentional or not, that would be great, because for the longest time, as I have understood it, it seems like an unintentional side effect of ghost heat, namely on the UAC-20.

The accessibility thing is a really good point, a guy in my former unit played with all voice commands, as that was the only way he could play.

In short, I'd rather there be more official support on the matter. The TOS in regard to macros is what it is because they couldn't enforce it otherwise, so as far as that goes, it is a pointless discussion to try and ban macros, yes.

My main issue is the intellectual dishonesty of people claiming that macros really can't do anything other than confer absolutely zero advantage compared to being without them. It is not true. Macros are allowed not because they confer no advantage, not because they are fair, not because they allow a person to do absolutely nothing useful, not one single useful use outside of what one could do manually. No. Macros are allowed because PGI can't do anything about it.

627, on 07 June 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

Well we are on page 8 after a day and my point from the very first answer stiill stands, there was still not a single example of a macro and how it does something better than by hand.

You forgot to mention being able to fire grouped lasers, or what have you, at the exact intervals to avoid ghost heat, like on a 4x erLL build.

Mystere, on 07 June 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

Hilarious!

I will summarize for you my position on macros since Day 1. PGI allowing macros enables me and others to use alternative devices capable of aggregating basic keyboard presses and mouse actions into higher-level constructs, thus allowing us to spend more brain power in other things. Just because you do not have cool toys and are mentally restricted to "low-level keyboard and mouse button presses" does not mean everyone else should be.

Why are you and others so hell-bent on removing the use of advanced devices and thinking?

Snark included for emphasis.

I-I d-d-don't know what to say after that. I thought we were all just bored and yelling with vitriol on a forum like everyone else. I never knew I was actually talking to an ascended one. Praise be to you, holy one.

Mystere, on 07 June 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

[...] thus allowing us to spend more brain power in other things. Just because you do not have cool toys and are mentally restricted to "low-level keyboard and mouse button presses" does not mean everyone else should be.

Ugga ugga, ooh ooh,

unga bunga ooga booga booga.

Let's not sugar coat it, we're all just bored on a video game forum.

[Burke IV]

627, on 07 June 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

Macros are not magic.....

In this game maybe but in other games macros walk a very fine line. Things like bunny hop scripts or AWP jump/switch scripts, total bs and cheating, but when people complained they said.. oh we dont have time to learn skills, we have real lifes your just sad and the whining went on and this stuff pretty much became accepted. Things like "minigun" macro, well, who cares you can do it pretty much the same with 2 weapon groups (as far as i can tell), gaus charge.. hmm pretty lightwieght but really no excuse for using it. In this game at the moment macros dont seem to be a problem but in general terms i think its cheating.

Edited by Burke IV, 07 June 2016 - 11:10 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Johnny Z, on 07 June 2016 - 09:42 PM, said:

I am half kidding. I don't like macos but the realist in me hopes that game play mechanics are made to not give macros any advantage, or that macros are included in the game.

To me, all they do is save my finger from clicking and getting carpel-tunnel that much quicker.

[totgeboren]

Thunder Child, on 07 June 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

Actually, if we had the ability to setup our weapon groups properly (MW2 did it pretty well, though not perfectly), most Macros would actually be unnecessary.
What we need is a decent Weapon Lab.

At the very least they should give us a little timer box above each weapon group where you could enter the time between each click when you have activated chain-fire. Like If I have 6 AC2s in one weapon group, I might want 0.72/6=0.12 seconds between each click, not 0.5 seconds like now.

[Johnny Z]

627, on 07 June 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

Macros are not magic. You highly overestimate what a macro can do. These are *simple* scripts that press some keys in a given time, nothing more.
You can't aim better, it is no wallhack or anything. Macros lead to nothing and there is no grey area between a macro and a cheat, this is exaggerated drama about a simple thing people seem to not understand.

I am going to make a point here by replacing macro with trigger bot.

627, on 07 June 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

Macros(trigger bots) are not magic. You highly overestimate what a macro(trigger bot) can do. These are *simple* scripts that press some keys in a given time, nothing more.
You can't aim better, it is no wallhack or anything. Macros(trigger bots) lead to nothing and there is no grey area between a macro(trigger bot) and a cheat, this is exaggerated drama about a simple thing people seem to not understand.

Trigger bots fire on areas only when the pointer goes over them, something as simple as a color can set them off. Its the dirtiest cheat going. The dirtiest cheats use wall hacks and trigger bots. Nearly impossible to easily be sure of. Aim bots are for newbs.

On the bright side as far as I can tell trigger bots cant lead a target at all.

Edited by Johnny Z, 07 June 2016 - 11:49 PM.

[Burke IV]

Trigger bot? that an early colour trigger aim bot.

Edit: this to me falls outside of macro use.

Edited by Burke IV, 07 June 2016 - 11:52 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Burke IV, on 07 June 2016 - 11:49 PM, said:

Trigger bot? that an early colour trigger aim bot.

Edit: this to me falls outside of macro use.

I don't know. I only know about their use from other games. Way worse hacking in other games goes on and more often.

My point was that the same guys that argue so strongly for macro use worry me. Although I could see my self using a macro maybe so macros are not a clear subject. I don't like third party programs at all because of this. It would be better it were included in the game or not at all.

These guys using every trick to get the win......

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 June 2016 - 12:07 AM.

[Burke IV]

before people could write good aimbots some of the very first ones used to lock colour, really terrible and obvious. Imagine something that locked onto the shade of cockpit glass. The way you stop it is put single pixels of whatever shade all over the map.

[totgeboren]

There are three things where macros are useful.
1. Constant TAG.
2. Staggered AC fire, essentially making IS AC more like Clan ACs. Gives improved suppression at the cost of turning your ballistics into dot weapons.
3. Minimizing the time lost due to jams in UACs. You can't reduce the jam chance, but you can fire the extra shot as soon as the first shot has left the barrel, meaning that if you do get a jam, you wont lose extra time. Like if you have an UAC20, fire the first shot, and the click the next time after 3.90 seconds and get a jam. Then you have lost almost ~3.5 seconds of firing time compared to if you had shot again after 0.5 seconds.

So yeah. Macros can make UACs perform slightly better, though you will then probably not have the option left on your mouse for not double-tapping. I'm not counting Gauss macros because they suck. No point in setting up a macro to make yourself perform worse and making your mech even harder to control.

Macros really are a non-issiue.

[Johnny Z]

totgeboren, on 07 June 2016 - 11:58 PM, said:

There are three things where macros are useful.
1. Constant TAG.
2. Staggered AC fire, essentially making IS AC more like Clan ACs. Gives improved suppression at the cost of turning your ballistics into dot weapons.
3. Minimizing the time lost due to jams in UACs. You can't reduce the jam chance, but you can fire the extra shot as soon as the first shot has left the barrel, meaning that if you do get a jam, you wont lose extra time. Like if you have an UAC20, fire the first shot, and the click the next time after 3.90 seconds and get a jam. Then you have lost almost ~3.5 seconds of firing time compared to if you had shot again after 0.5 seconds.

So yeah. Macros can make UACs perform slightly better, though you will then probably not have the option left on your mouse for not double-tapping. I'm not counting Gauss macros because they suck. No point in setting up a macro to make yourself perform worse and making your mech even harder to control.

Macros really are a non-issiue.

Saying gauss 3 stage fire is better than a gauss one stage fire is a lie.

[totgeboren]

Johnny Z, on 08 June 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

Saying gauss 3 stage fire is better than a gauss one stage fire is a lie.

To be honest, I seldom run gauss and I only tired setting up a macro for it once. Since I'm used to running them as normal, the macro just made the gun impossible to use properly for me. Too much wasted ammo for a weapon with low amounts of ammo.

Perhaps I didn't understand how a macro was supposed to make the gauss so much better?

Edited by totgeboren, 08 June 2016 - 12:09 AM.

[Johnny Z]

totgeboren, on 08 June 2016 - 12:08 AM, said:

To be honest, I seldom run gauss and I only tired setting up a macro for it once. Since I'm used to running them as normal, the macro just made the gun impossible to use properly for me. Too much wasted ammo for a weapon with low amounts of ammo.

Perhaps I didn't understand how a macro was supposed to make the gauss so much better?

Again my point was that a guy saying he wouldn't want to use a trigger bot because he loses fire control, so trigger bots are not an advantage..... Fact is its the difference between auto firing hands free and having to do it for ones self....

The step between macros and trigger bots is tiny, then the step between trigger bots and aim bots is tiny. Clearest "slippery slope". All just scripts right?

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 June 2016 - 12:13 AM.

[totgeboren]

Johnny Z, on 08 June 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

Again my point was that a guy saying he wouldn't want to use a trigger bot because he loses fire control, so trigger bots are not an advantage..... Fact is its the difference between auto firing hands free and having to do it for ones self....

The step between macros and trigger bots is tiny, then the step between trigger bots and aim bots is tiny. Clearest "slippery slope". All just scripts right?

Ah, ok, now I get your analogy. To me there is a big difference between scripts controlling your movement and scripts that give a sequence of button pushes from one button push, but now that I thought about it dividing it like that is kinda arbitrary.

In the best of worlds PGI would implement a weapons lab, or at the very least the ability to set the chain-fire stagger yourself for each weapon group and to allow the group to be a toggle, like AMS is now.

If we had that basic functionality I would be all for banning macros, at least on paper (would often be hard to prove who is guilty though).
As it is now, the game is in my view missing basic code, and if PGI says we should go to third party sources to find the missing code, that's what I will do.

Edited by totgeboren, 08 June 2016 - 12:24 AM.