90 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

The thing I find absolutely asinine about the whole anti-macro argument, is it's literally one of the smallest forms of advantages somebody could utilize for this game.

For example, the following that I use gives me so much more of an advantage than any macro software could ever give me:
- Having a good gaming PC that can run this game on average between 100-120 fps.
- Having a 144hz monitor w/ lightboost strobed at 120hz to eliminate motion blur.
- Using a DPI clutch in mouse software to instantly drop sensitivity on-the-fly in order to keep lasers on target for the full duration, yet maintain the ability to twist and shield quickly after shooting.
- Using a USB headset that allows me to completely separate game audio from VOIP/teamspeak audio, allowing for clearer calls.

[WarHippy]

Aresye, on 09 June 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

The thing I find absolutely asinine about the whole anti-macro argument, is it's literally one of the smallest forms of advantages somebody could utilize for this game.

For example, the following that I use gives me so much more of an advantage than any macro software could ever give me:
- Having a good gaming PC that can run this game on average between 100-120 fps.
- Having a 144hz monitor w/ lightboost strobed at 120hz to eliminate motion blur.
- Using a DPI clutch in mouse software to instantly drop sensitivity on-the-fly in order to keep lasers on target for the full duration, yet maintain the ability to twist and shield quickly after shooting.
- Using a USB headset that allows me to completely separate game audio from VOIP/teamspeak audio, allowing for clearer calls.

Yeah, macros here don't do much, but there are some games out there that the amount of macros and advantages they provide are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Like I said earlier they don't really bother me in general, but I do find it to be rather sad how dependent some people are on them.

[Mystere]

Aresye, on 09 June 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

The thing I find absolutely asinine about the whole anti-macro argument, is it's literally one of the smallest forms of advantages somebody could utilize for this game.

For example, the following that I use gives me so much more of an advantage than any macro software could ever give me:
- Having a good gaming PC that can run this game on average between 100-120 fps.
- Having a 144hz monitor w/ lightboost strobed at 120hz to eliminate motion blur.
- Using a DPI clutch in mouse software to instantly drop sensitivity on-the-fly in order to keep lasers on target for the full duration, yet maintain the ability to twist and shield quickly after shooting.
- Using a USB headset that allows me to completely separate game audio from VOIP/teamspeak audio, allowing for clearer calls.

Please add to that ASUS' "Sonic Radar II" and "GamePlus".

[Wintersdark]

Fut, on 09 June 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Just seems like there's a lot of conflicting info on Macro use, and I can't help but think that some of it is purposefully deceitful. I mean, we have a bunch of Tier 1 players claiming that LRMs are garbage, but as soon as a Macro conversation comes up they run straight to the "Tag should have been on a toggle to begin with. I just use Macros for that" defense. Why are people running Tag with a Macro-Toggle if nobody in the upper Tiers use LRMs?

There ARE people in higher-end play who use LRM's. They ARE garbage. So your question here is deliberately misleading. Still, a toggle for TAG is not giving you an advantage, it's just removing the PITA of holding a button down all the time.

Otherwise, you start getting into the territory of "Oh, he's got 5 buttons on his mouse and I only have two, he's a cheater!" and other such absurdly stupid stuff.

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If I can create a macro to ensure that no more than 6 MLs will fire within 0.5 seconds on my HBK-4P, while I just hold the button down, isn't that circumventing a balancing mechanic that would normally require some thought and skill on the part of the player? Sure, you could just practice and hope that you nail the 0.51 second spacing on the second group of MLs to avoid heat penalties, but it's easier to have a macro do it isn't it? (The same could be said for any of the weapons affected by the Ghost Heat mechanic, I used MLs as an example. A DWF with 8xERLL and a macro to avoid Ghost Heat is another example).

No. Ghost Heat isn't a skill mechanic, it's a balance mechanic designed to prevent huge alpha strikes (it doesn't work that well, but whatever). A player with those macros has no advantage over a player without.

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It just seems odd to me that nobody is using Macros for this sort of thing, it's always TAG Toggle, MG Toggle, AC2s, jokes jokes jokes..etc - and it's usually followed up closely with ridiculous hyperbole about gaming mice, and brainwave scanning peripherals, like people can't see the clear distinction between all of this.

Very few people use macros for that sort of thing because they don't actually help. Macros are explicitly allowed, but are virtually never used in competitive play. The reason for that is simple: Because they give no to very little actual advantage, and when they do it's almost always paired with a disadvantage somewhere too.

As macros are explicitly, deliberately allowed by PGI, if they gave a significant (or even moderate) advantage, they'd be used a LOT because you'd need to in order to compete. Competitive play requires maximizing all the advantages that you can. So why don't you see macros used there?

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The best defense, though, has got to be "Well PGI says macros are okay, so they're okay - end of story". Right, because that's the conversation people starting these threads are trying to have. Might as well just move to the Philipines and start killing drug dealers, killing is alright because their President says so! End of story. Moral standards? Code of Ethics? Don't worry, don't even discuss it, the head honcho says it's fine, so have at it.

Moral standards, code of ethics? Don't be daft.

This is a game. A game. PGI sets the rules. There's no ambiguity here, macros are explicitly allowed. You might as well be arguing firing Medium Lasers and Large Pulse Lasers together is as bad, because it allows you to circumvent Ghost Heat. Understand: The design for Ghost Heat was to prevent alpha strikes over 30 damage with comparable weapons. It's allowed, as PGI chose to put ML's and LPL's in different Ghost Heat Weapon Groups, but it breaks the stated purpose of Ghost Heat. We're allowed to do it, so that's that.

Games have rules. Play within those rules is allowed, outside the rules is not. This isn't a case of exploits (where you're doing unintended things that rules don't explicitly cover because the developers didn't forsee it). They were from day one aware of macros and allowed them.

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Anyhow, that's my little rant.
In case anybody is keeping score, I honestly don't care if people use Macros or not, it just irritates me to see so many people kidding themselves...

Nobody is kidding themselves. It's quite clear. If macros offered an advantage, they'd be used rampantly in competitive play, and they aren't.

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So if PGI pulled a 180 tomorrow and 'banned' macros, you'd agree with it and condemn those who wanted to use them?

I wouldn't agree, but I'd go along with it, because PGI makes the rules for their game. PGI makes all kinds of decisions I don't agree with all the time (...ghost heat...) but I go along with that too.

[Wintersdark]

Fut, on 09 June 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Thanks, I appreciate the concise response.
Seems like some people do feel like it's an 'unjust law' though, hence all the threads.

And that's because 100% of those people are wrong. They feel that way because they think the player with a macro is gaining an advantage.

He's not. But they don't get it, because they don't really understand how macros work. It's been my experience here, over 4 years, that every single player who gets their panties in a bunch about macros will cite all sorts of ridiculous things that are either entirely impossible (having a guass rifle always ready to fire), or actually disadvantageous (stagger firing AC2's) as reasons why macros are bad.

Again, the proof is in the pudding:

1) Macro's are explicitly allowed in the rules.
2) Competitive play always involves maximizing every advantage.
3) If macros provided an advantage, they'd be being used extensively in competitive play.

They aren't.

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I just assume that the people making these threads are trying to show their disagreement with the current Macro-Stance, probably hoping to garner enough support for things to change.Can't really blame them for that.

It's irritating, because they're objecting to something they don't really understand. It's out of fear that other players will have an unfair advantage over them, as they don't use macros themselves, and I get that, but that fear is 100% founded in utter ignorance.

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If PGI banned macros tomorrow, or if they heavily promoted their use, it would have no effect on my game play.
I just have a hard time staying out of these conversations because there are so many faulty arguments on both sides and I get a real kick out of a good debate. Although, I suppose I can also assume that the "faulty arguments" are stemming from the fact that it's the same conversations over and over again, and people are just tired of getting into the nitty gritty every time.

It's annoying. Very annoying.

4 years of this ignorance.

They've been shown, inarguably, to offer no advantage. They are explicitly allowed.

We're tired of ignorant people getting worked up about something they don't understand. It gets really old.

[Triordinant]

Not really an advantage; more like a crutch. Some people need them, others don't.

[Wintersdark]

Aresye, on 09 June 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

The thing I find absolutely asinine about the whole anti-macro argument, is it's literally one of the smallest forms of advantages somebody could utilize for this game.

For example, the following that I use gives me so much more of an advantage than any macro software could ever give me:
- Having a good gaming PC that can run this game on average between 100-120 fps.
- Having a 144hz monitor w/ lightboost strobed at 120hz to eliminate motion blur.
- Using a DPI clutch in mouse software to instantly drop sensitivity on-the-fly in order to keep lasers on target for the full duration, yet maintain the ability to twist and shield quickly after shooting.
- Using a USB headset that allows me to completely separate game audio from VOIP/teamspeak audio, allowing for clearer calls.

I have USB foot pedals. They let me toggle arm lock, fire additional weapon groups, and other such functions without using valuable finger-input-capacity. I AM TEH LEET HAXXORS!

The horror!

[Wintersdark]

Triordinant, on 09 June 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

Not really an advantage; more like a crutch. Some people need them, others don't.

I dislike using "crutch" in these arguments, because it tends to be looked at in the light of "Oh, you're using a Timberwolf? That's a crutch, real players pilot Vindicators".


Except in this particular case, "Crutch" is very appropriate.

This is because while macros can allow you to work a particular mechanic "close to the bone" - such one that fires your PPC's when you fire your gauss after charging - it also makes other usage harder. For example, you can't compensate for the differing projectile speeds. This means a straight shot with no leading is easy to have Gauss+PPC on one mouse button, but then that's an active disadvantage as soon as your target is moving (even if just twisting).

Crutches make walking easy. Until you need to climb stairs, or carry stuff.

That's why I don't use them myself.

Not because of lack of ability (I do lots of AutoHotKey scripting, and really enjoy it), nor because of some misguided "ethics" rationale, but because there's no way I've found to use macros that actually grants an advantage without getting in the way somewhere else.

[Fut]

Wintersdark, on 09 June 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

Nobody is kidding themselves. It's quite clear. If macros offered an advantage, they'd be used rampantly in competitive play, and they aren't.

[...]

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

Second is the group chain fire macro. Useful when chain firing those 6 LLasers three by three, for example. Made huge difference in my CW performance. Basically first group on left mouse button and second group for right mouse button. Put the macro as "play while assigned key is pressed".

Like I said, conflicting info.
You can't really blame people for being confused as to their advantages when you read one thread that says "nobody uses them they suck" then read another where somebody claims "a huge difference in performance".

Anyhow, thanks for the honest responses, Wintersdark.
I think I have a fairly good grasp of both sides of the discussion at this point, including the irritation people are feeling from years of circular conversations. I'll try to stay out of this one for awhile.

[Wintersdark]

One final point:
Macros being allowed does offer some people a huge advantage.

Disabled people.

Not everyone can work lots of inputs and keybinds. Without macros, disabled people in many cases would be unable to play at all. Macros allow combining functions, and interfacing with custom controllers.

[Revis Volek]

Fut, on 09 June 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Just seems like there's a lot of conflicting info on Macro use, and I can't help but think that some of it is purposefully deceitful. I mean, we have a bunch of Tier 1 players claiming that LRMs are garbage, but as soon as a Macro conversation comes up they run straight to the "Tag should have been on a toggle to begin with. I just use Macros for that" defense. Why are people running Tag with a Macro-Toggle if nobody in the upper Tiers use LRMs?

TAG also helps reduce the lock time of SSRM's as well.

[Wintersdark]

Fut, on 09 June 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

Like I said, conflicting info.
You can't really blame people for being confused as to their advantages when you read one thread that says "nobody uses them they suck" then read another where somebody claims "a huge difference in performance".

Anyhow, thanks for the honest responses, Wintersdark.
I think I have a fairly good grasp of both sides of the discussion at this point, including the irritation people are feeling from years of circular conversations. I'll try to stay out of this one for awhile.

It's not "nobody uses them they suck". It's, overall, they offer very little advantage, can be done manually (to varying degrees, some people have better timing than others, so they CAN allow you to compensate for poor timing ability), but as I said.

Comp play sees practically no macros used. As such, they are NOT offering a significant advantage. If they were, then everyone would be using them, not the odd guy here and there.

[Fut]

Revis Volek, on 09 June 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

TAG also helps reduce the lock time of SSRM's as well.

I know I said I'd stay out of this one, but shiiiiiit - have never considered TAG usage for Streaks.
Shameful day.

[Revis Volek]

Wintersdark, on 09 June 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

One final point:
Macros being allowed does offer some people a huge advantage.

Disabled people.

Not everyone can work lots of inputs and keybinds. Without macros, disabled people in many cases would be unable to play at all. Macros allow combining functions, and interfacing with custom controllers.

This as well....


But i DO think PGI should allow EVERYONE (as in a GAME MECHANIC) to TOGGLE FIRE GROUPS of weapons and not just eh weapons in the groups. The only way to achieve that right now is by using MACROS.


This should just be part of the mechlab and weapon groups options IMO.

[Wintersdark]

Revis Volek, on 09 June 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

This as well....


But i DO think PGI should allow EVERYONE (as in a GAME MECHANIC) to TOGGLE FIRE GROUPS of weapons and not just eh weapons in the groups. The only way to achieve that right now is by using MACROS.


This should just be part of the mechlab and weapon groups options IMO.

absolutely. The inability to chain pairs of weapons easily is stupid.

[TWIAFU]

Why hasn't anyone posted what is illegal and legal? Right from the source and not what someone thinks, wants to be, or voices opinion what should be?

I mean, funny as hell to read what people think is illegal and what is not without even reading what is or is not.

So, ILLEGAL;

Using a Bot application to carry out gameplay actions without user participation.

Engaging in the use of hacks, scripts, or cheats.
Discussing the use of hacks, scripts, or cheats.
Misrepresenting your use of hacks, scripts, or cheats.
Accusing other players of using hacks, scripts, or cheats.

LEGAL;

Keybind macro software and hardware mechanisms are permitted for use as long as such mechanisms still require manual input to initiate and do not fully automate gameplay.


So, the difference is user input on legality.

Go READ;

http://mwomercs.com/conduct

[TercieI]

Ultimax, on 09 June 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

We don't need to fix stupid, we just need to add enough direct opposition to it that the people in the middle who haven't formed an opinion have another voice to listen to.

Yeah, talking to the gallery is most of the reason I bang my head on walls here, too. But, to be blunt, anybody who searched for five seconds could find multiple copies of this conversation with all positions explained in agonizing detail.

Ironically, that apparently doesn't include the OP of this thread since there is literally another macro thread (and man are they all the same) still on the front page of general discussion.

Edited by TercieI, 09 June 2016 - 01:46 PM.

[WarHippy]

TWIAFU, on 09 June 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

LEGAL;

Keybind macro software and hardware mechanisms are permitted for use as long as such mechanisms still require manual input to initiate and do not fully automate gameplay.


So, the difference is user input on legality.

Go READ;

http://mwomercs.com/conduct

I always found that description funny. So long as I hit a button to aim for me while I pilot the mech I am safe? Essentially, you can't make bots, and so long as the cheat has a button on your keyboard that you must press to toggle it on or off you are good to go.

[Aresye]

WarHippy, on 09 June 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

I always found that description funny. So long as I hit a button to aim for me while I pilot the mech I am safe? Essentially, you can't make bots, and so long as the cheat has a button on your keyboard that you must press to toggle it on or off you are good to go.

If you could somehow design a function that does this without injecting code and/or modifying game files, then yes, you could technically do it and be 100% in the clear according to the CoC.

Of course, this really isn't possible due to the fact you can't create something to automate aim without pulling information from the game itself. At some point you're either modifying game files or injecting code, both of which are against CoC.

[Mystere]

Wintersdark, on 09 June 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

I have USB foot pedals. They let me toggle arm lock, fire additional weapon groups, and other such functions without using valuable finger-input-capacity. I AM TEH LEET HAXXORS!

The horror!

Using your foot to fire weapons is cheating! PGI ban Wintersdark nao!!!