819 replies to this topic

[Chuck Jager]

Hotthedd, on 09 August 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

I personally do not care for "fixes" that have no basis is the BT universe, or the theoretical real universe (Fusion engines would have more than enough power to fire all of a 'mech's weapons).

Alpha Strikes are a part of the BT universe.

Having any kind of precision with an Alpha Strike isn't.

Using heat as a limiting factor only works if you have an actual heat scale.

The only thing that would really work would be a precision penalty for simultaneously fired weapons.

...but that will never happen.

You will still be able to alpha any build, but in a similar way to how those alphas apply to any weapon with GH.

If you build poorly, alpha can kill you. Builds will just need to changed. Also if everybody else's damage output is limited too, this means you will also take less damage per poke. SO 2 pokes at 500 m in .5 secs will probably output/receive the same damage as the current 1 poke.

We do not have dice and randomized hit locations and I have a feeling that more people would rage implementing RNG damage.

We broke from strict BT the second you introduce a pvp online game. Every game has to deal with how online PVP use smaller maps and the need to control certain factors to help balance a random team of people and their various goals (not even talking about their ingame skills).

[Mystere]

Mawai, on 09 August 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

Actually, I think the problem with convergence is hacking and not other technical issues.

ANYTHING that is client side can be hacked. Period. If the client tells the server when the weapons are converged then this can be hacked. There will be an instant convergence hack in place within days if not hours of this feature being in place.

A hack like this offers a HUGE advantage since the player using it will always have instant convergence weapons.

I believe that convergence was in the game at one point ... at least it was planned based on the skill tree. However, I suspect it was not implemented simply because hacks for it could not be prevented without sending aim point and weapon location data for every mech continuously instead of sending it just when the weapon fires. Continuous aim point data might actually also help prevent aim bots to some extent.

Putting convergence calculatons server side is probably the solution but this requires sending more data to the server, additional server calculation, and there is a question of how it would be integrated with host state rewind.

As a founder, i am a bit surprised you do not remember, unless of course you were "on vacation from MWO" during most of the period when we had delayed convergence.

In any case, the reason it was changed to what we have now is because the old delated convergence system messed with hit registration and host state rewind and PGI just could not make all three work.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 09 August 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

In any case, the reason it was changed to what we have now is because the old delated convergence system messed with hit registration and host state rewind and PGI just could not make all three work.

It's probably less that they couldn't make it work, and more that it increased complexity of the calculations taxing servers more than they are already taxed making it not an option.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Mystere]

Hotthedd, on 09 August 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Alpha Strikes are a part of the BT universe.

Just a slight correction. From what I gather, repeated alpha strikes are definitely not part of the BT universe. They were a method of last resort, not the main firing pattern.

[Gas Guzzler]

Chuck Jager, on 09 August 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:

You will still be able to alpha any build, but in a similar way to how those alphas apply to any weapon with GH.

If you build poorly, alpha can kill you. Builds will just need to changed. Also if everybody else's damage output is limited too, this means you will also take less damage per poke. SO 2 pokes at 500 m in .5 secs will probably output/receive the same damage as the current 1 poke.

We do not have dice and randomized hit locations and I have a feeling that more people would rage implementing RNG damage.

We broke from strict BT the second you introduce a pvp online game. Every game has to deal with how online PVP use smaller maps and the need to control certain factors to help balance a random team of people and their various goals (not even talking about their ingame skills).

It has NOTHING to do with how you build. It's strictly damage. Unless you mean "you can still alpha as long as you only boat AC5s" then yeah then you can "build" around it. No MechWarrior game to date has had a feature like this, alphas have been a part of every MechWarrior game.

It is seriously ridiculous...have fun with your MAD-IIC with 9 energy hardpoints lol.

Mystere, on 09 August 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

Just a slight correction. From what I gather, repeated alpha strikes are definitely not part of the BT universe. They were a method of last resort, not the main firing pattern.

They are most certainly part of the MECHWARRIOR universe and always have been. They also have a strong presence in many of the books, not that that matters at all.

[dervishx5]

Some mechs in Battletech are designed to alpha strike every time. A lot of mechs are not.

The whole alpha strike argument is about as well understood by the common layman as the process of condensation.

Edited by dervishx5, 09 August 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

That doesn't really solve the problem, people will still gravitate towards builds with weapons that have similar behavior, they will just gravitate towards weapons/mechs the circumvent CoF and convergence the best. At best that mitigates fundamental issues, at worst it exacerbates balance problems.

Note that I did not say "complete" solution, just "easier".

Also, what balance problems are you referring to? Clustered weapons? If so, clustered weapons are an inherent characteristic of the Mech and as such we should not be really messing with that. Besides, my solution to that "problem" is to shoot off that weapons cluster.

[Gas Guzzler]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

Some mechs in Battletech are designed to alpha strike every time. A lot of mechs are not.

The whole alpha strike argument is about as well understood by the common layman as the process of condensation.

People say "alpha strikes should only be used as a last resort and should almost never happen" when they want to bring their 2 small laser, 1 large laser, AC5, LRM 10, srm4 build and not get roflstomped. What they don't understand is Energy Draw will never make that happen. Ghost heat is actually closer to enforcing that than Energy Draw is, which is ironic because folks seem to think the opposite.

[dervishx5]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

People say "alpha strikes should only be used as a last resort and should almost never happen" when they want to bring their 2 small laser, 1 large laser, AC5, LRM 10, srm4 build and not get roflstomped. What they don't understand is Energy Draw will never make that happen. Ghost heat is actually closer to enforcing that than Energy Draw is, which is ironic because folks seem to think the opposite.

I think a lot of those people care more about weapon boating than firing all their weapons at once. If they can do the 2 small laser, 1 large laser, AC5, LRM 10, srm4 build and alpha they wont care about the guy who brings 2 ERPPC Gauss and can't.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

They are most certainly part of the MECHWARRIOR universe and always have been. They also have a strong presence in many of the books, not that that matters at all.

Well, the MW games got it wrong then.

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

Some mechs in Battletech are designed to alpha strike every time. A lot of mechs are not.

The whole alpha strike argument is about as well understood by the common layman as the process of condensation.

And that is the key point. Only some Mechs are able to do so, not all of them.

Edited by Mystere, 09 August 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[Signal27]

Chimera11, on 13 June 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

I'm going to wait to form an opinion until there's actually enough information to form an opinion on.

THIS!

OP: The reason you only hear negative reaction against power draw is because those are the only people who care to talk about it since they don't like the concept in general. The rest of us have adopted a "wait and see" attitude before we praise or curse it - so we have nothing to talk about.

Edited by Signal27, 09 August 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 09 August 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Also, what balance problems are you referring to? Clustered weapons? If so, clustered weapons are an inherent characteristic of the Mech and as such we should not be really messing with that.

The balance I refer to is weapon (CoF affects this) and mech (convergence affects this). You would be messing with clustered weapons by making them even better than they already are, and guess how many of them are high mounted as well (I'll give you a hint, several meta mechs have both high and clustered mounts)?

Exacerbating balance problems already within the game is not what I would call making things "easier."

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[Yellonet]

Smaller and fewer alphas can only make fire-fights more interesting and fun.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yellonet, on 09 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Smaller and fewer alphas can only make fire-fights more interesting and fun.

Or just makes brawl rushes and dakka pushes the only way to play the game.

[dervishx5]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Or just makes brawl rushes and dakka pushes the only way to play the game.

With these maps I'm not sure why you think they want it any other way.

[Gas Guzzler]

Signal27, on 09 August 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

THIS!

OP: The reason you only hear negative reaction against power draw is because those are the only people who care to talk about it since they don't like the concept in general. The rest of us have adopted a "wait and see" attitude before we praise or curse it - so we have nothing to talk about.

Its pretty clear... its based on damage (30 is the starting point) with a small chance of a modifier for spread damage. Either way, lasers on heavies or assaults will be a nonfactor, and the game will devolve into "I have more DPS than you do!!"

Anyone hoping for anything more is plagued with hope and wishful thinking. I asked Russ last night about if ballistics will be weighted differently than lasers, and he said no its about damage. So that's right folks, a medium laser is considered as effective as an AC5 in terms of energy draw.

Yellonet, on 09 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Smaller and fewer alphas can only make fire-fights more interesting and fun.

Sorry, I don't believe you. DPS races aren't more interesting or fun.

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

With these maps I'm not sure why you think they want it any other way.

Well they DID take one of the best brawl maps in the game (Frozen City) and give it some long range elements...

[Chuck Jager]

Some folks do not like change.

Folks want lower ttk and this could also help give newer players with weaker builds a little push in getting the skills needed while also giving short ranged builds a better chance to get in and do damage.

Before clan many mechs were hindered by 30-40pt builds except for at closer ranges with srms just because of the weight and the fact that Xl were harder to pull off because of the greater chance for a brawl.

All we really know is that all current builds will still be viable if they break the damage into 2 shots with a delay as set forth in the mechanic. Well it may seem like a big change except for they will take less damage when exposing themselves for the shots. Sounds like a price worth paying for some of the possible benefits in how the game actually plays.

[MechaBattler]

I haven't heard enough about it to make any kind of judgement on it. Though I'm sure some people will still feel the need to trash talk it. Because that's exactly what they did with ghost range. People admitted not even trying it, but felt that their opinion mattered enough that it didn't need trying. With that kind of mentality, I'm not sure that the community as a whole is trustworthy for making development decisions.

[AdamBaines]

AnTi90d, on 13 June 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

So, I saw that this was just Tweeted:



..all the while I haven't heard a single positive thing about the incoming power draw mechanic from any player.. only negative.

Read this is so painfully funny to me. All this community has begged for in the last 3-4 years is the death of the current heat system, a.k.a. Ghost Heat. So what did the community do? Come together, talk about a possible solution ( I believe it was Homeless Bill, whom is very respected in the MWO community, who really pushed for this, but please correct me where I am wrong) the community agreed it was a good viable change to at least TRY. PGI does some research with continued feedback from the community and decides to give it a go...and now I read this........

And we wonder why it seems like PGI does not listen to the community.

This is why I generally don't participate on the boards anymore. its just frustrating.

[Gas Guzzler]

Chuck Jager, on 09 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Some folks do not like change.

Folks want lower ttk and this could also help give newer players with weaker builds a little push in getting the skills needed while also giving short ranged builds a better chance to get in and do damage.

Before clan many mechs were hindered by 30-40pt builds except for at closer ranges with srms just because of the weight and the fact that Xl were harder to pull off because of the greater chance for a brawl.

All we really know is that all current builds will still be viable if they break the damage into 2 shots with a delay as set forth in the mechanic. Well it may seem like a big change except for they will take less damage when exposing themselves for the shots. Sounds like a price worth paying for some of the possible benefits in how the game actually plays.

No they won't be though. Laser vomit is already on its way out even if you can alpha everything. DPS from AC5s and brawling is strong enough to counter it. Now you are going to tell me that Clan mechs have to stare for LONGER? Yeah, right. Lasers will still be TOTALLY viable. Alternating IS LPLs might still be viable (2 x 2) because of how insanely short the duration is, but otherwise, no way. There are no benefits, just a meta shift and reduction of viable options.