376 replies to this topic

[Kirkland Langue]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

I mean we could do that in CW. I never said that was a bad idea, that's probably a good idea (giving purpose to some bad assaults) but PGI would have to develop a BV system, as the one straight from BT probably wouldn't be balanced. But respawns in quick play... the community is very divided on that..

Here is the situation that I actually favor:
Each player gets a dropdeck for quick games, but only actually uses one of the mechs.

You might think "okay, just grab 2 good mechs and fill with 2 filler mechs - and then everyone on both maps will just play their best mech" ..... Worst case scenario it's no different from now: each person takes whatever mech they want to play. Best case scenario is that it leads players to design more mechs for more maps/game modes and then actually choose a mech they want to play for the given map as opposed to suiciding because they don't want to play a given map in the mech they are sitting in.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Here is the situation that I actually favor:
Each player gets a dropdeck for quick games, but only actually uses one of the mechs.

You might think "okay, just grab 2 good mechs and fill with 2 filler mechs - and then everyone on both maps will just play their best mech" ..... Worst case scenario it's no different from now: each person takes whatever mech they want to play. Best case scenario is that it leads players to design more mechs for more maps/game modes and then actually choose a mech they want to play for the given map as opposed to suiciding because they don't want to play a given map in the mech they are sitting in.

This is a feature than has been asked for a while, but has nothing really to do with the topic at hand.

[Kirkland Langue]

Nothing to do with the topic at hand? Punch yourself.

Seriously, Andi says there are only 2 ways to balance mechs - I point out that mechs not only don't have to be balanced but shouldn't be balanced based upon their origin and that there are perfectly good options to still allow games to be balanced.

And then YOU jumped in to make the argument that Urbie should be just as powerful as a Direwolf - so that Urbie gets to see play. And now you want to say that this discussion is off-topic? Punch yourself.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

Nothing to do with the topic at hand? Punch yourself.

Seriously, Andi says there are only 2 ways to balance mechs - I point out that mechs not only don't have to be balanced but shouldn't be balanced based upon their origin and that there are perfectly good options to still allow games to be balanced.

And then YOU jumped in to make the argument that Urbie should be just as powerful as a Direwolf - so that Urbie gets to see play. And now you want to say that this discussion is off-topic? Punch yourself.

Please, there is no need for violence.

Except in the case of Energy Draw supporters, they can punch themselves.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

I point out that mechs not only don't have to be balanced but shouldn't be balanced based upon their origin and that there are perfectly good options to still allow games to be balanced.

Question is, are whether those other balance methods support formats that most people wanted? Anything that resembles respawn tends to divide the community as does asymmetric teams (though asym teams even more so).

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

And then YOU jumped in to make the argument that Urbie should be just as powerful as a Direwolf - so that Urbie gets to see play.

For this game to have a diverse meta in the current format, that has to happen for a majority of mechs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 August 2016 - 01:18 PM.

[Kirkland Langue]

I think the powerdraw will be a waste of time - as I've stated previously.
I also don't really care one way or the other about Power Draw. I'm sure it'll make some Tier 3 mechs move up to Tier 2 or maybe Tier 1; and vice versa.

At the end of the day, people will still be crying for balance - only it'll be different mechs that are seen as good or bad.

EDIT - quicksilver, the idea that I just posted is NOT respawns: it simply allows players to choose their mech after the map has been selected. I'd say that it's a really good suggestion for MWO - but even if it's a bad suggestion, it's better than arguing that an Urbie should be just as powerful as a Direwolf.

Edited by Kirkland Langue, 17 August 2016 - 01:19 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

EDIT - quicksilver, the idea that I just posted is NOT respawns: it simply allows players to choose their mech after the map has been selected.

Except as I said before, it isn't related to this topic because it has nothing to do with fixing balance or even enticing people to play worse off mechs should we keep things unbalanced (or exacerbate the balance issues). Even with BV it still does nothing to address any concerns or fix problems.

It leaves a bunch of mechs as useless and no incentive to play them, that doesn't make a good business model either since worthless mechs tend not to sell as well as mechs that are good. Hmmm, I wonder why we haven't seen any new lights since the Jenner IIC........

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 August 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[Kirkland Langue]

But it DOES relate to mech balance and getting players to use undervalued mechs. Each Player's Dropdeck would be based upon BV.

What would convince a player to add an urbie to their dropdeck? Having a low enough BV to give more space for higher rated mechs.

What would convince that player to actually drop using that Urbie? as opposed to one of the other 3 mechs?
Well, having 4 specialized mechs in your deck, so that you are prepared for a wider selection of maps/game types, seems like the best idea. Urbie may not really be useful in any situation - but that's because it's a junk mech to begin with.

I agree that all mechs should have a place in the game - but I disagree about just making the Urbie as powerful as the Direwolf so that it doesn't feel left behind. PGI should NEVER introduce worthless mechs to the game - if you want to blame someone for there being worthless mechs in the game, blame PGI.

If you want to be mad because you own a worthless mech, blame yourself for buying it.
Quit trying to say "well I bought this lead weight, could someone please use a Midas Touch on it and turn it to Gold?"

Edited by Kirkland Langue, 17 August 2016 - 01:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

But it DOES relate to mech balance and getting players to use undervalued mechs. Each Player's Dropdeck would be based upon BV.

Not if it means sacrificing combat ability, there are plenty of mechs that can work on a majority of maps and still be safe, especially in PUG life where you won't see extreme range or short range often regardless of the map because of the tendencies in PUG life, because taking something that doesn't quite fit the style of play on the map would still be a better option than taking some crappy light mech outside maybe a Cheetah provided it doesn't get the nerfhammer.

Especially if the meta is as shallow as it has been since the Kodiak dropped, the shallower the meta, the easier it is to just pick one or two mechs and ignore all the rest.

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

If you want to be mad because you own a worthless mech, blame yourself for buying it.
Quit trying to say "well I bought this lead weight, could someone please use a Midas Touch on it and turn it to Gold?"

You sure like non-sequiturs and assuming things about people.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 August 2016 - 01:39 PM.

[SilentWolff]

BLOOD WOLF, on 17 August 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

what are you trying to say?

PoS Ipad. Glad Apple keeps reminding me why i think their products are $hit.

[Kirkland Langue]

Anyways quicksilver - it isn't really of interest to me to try and convince you that the worst possible answer is to try and make urbie as powerful as Direwolf. But since you so clearly want it to be this way, have fun.

[pwnface]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Anyways quicksilver - it isn't really of interest to me to try and convince you that the worst possible answer is to try and make urbie as powerful as Direwolf. But since you so clearly want it to be this way, have fun.

It's not about making an urbanmech as powerful as a direwolf. It's about making all mechs capable of competing on a reasonably balanced battlefield. If your urbanmech loses to a direwolf 100% of the time no matter how skilled the pilots are, nobody is ever going to play an urbanmech.

Battletech balance with multiple controllable mechs and battle value system does not translate well into an FPS simulator.

Edited by pwnface, 17 August 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[Johnny Z]

pwnface, on 17 August 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

It's not about making an urbanmech as powerful as a direwolf. It's about making all mechs capable of competing on a reasonably balanced battlefield. If your urbanmech loses to a direwolf 100% of the time no matter how the pilots are, nobody is ever going to play an urbanmech.

Battletech balance with multiple controllable mechs and battle value system does not translate well into an FPS simulator.

Right if a Direwolf was made to be the only mech players pilot then what kind of game does this turn into. It turns into a game where players have no choice what mech to pilot, which would be a real shame.

As it is balance isn't bad and players have 100's of chassis + variant choices.

I'm going to sound like a cheerleader here again, but this is the truth. MechWarrior Online took the hard road here and the game is way better off for it. Not to mention making the competition look like idiots for wasting their games content. Being a sci-fi it has more room to play here than some, but it works out really well.

Also they have done an amazing job of gameplay balance.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 August 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[FrozenAnt]

I really think this mechanic wouldn't be needed if Mediums and Lights has other relevant objectives to do on a bigger map. The only mechs that can do this "PPC+gauss" and "Big Dakka" are heavies and assaults which have the armor to trade back and forth like that. Take Meds and lights out of the equation and let the big boys duke it out.

Alternatively widen the speed/torso twist gap between heavies and mediums. That way the can keep their big alpha and only reliably hit people with enough armor to soak it. Mediums and lights can dance easier and are less likely to get hit with it. Maybe give them more space on maps to dance.

As far as balancing things between clan mediums and IS mediums. Well that's something else entirely

[Johnny Z]

FrozenAnt, on 17 August 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

I really think this mechanic wouldn't be needed if Mediums and Lights has other relevant objectives to do on a bigger map. The only mechs that can do this "PPC+gauss" and "Big Dakka" are heavies and assaults which have the armor to trade back and forth like that. Take Meds and lights out of the equation and let the big boys duke it out.

Alternatively widen the speed/torso twist gap between heavies and mediums. That way the can keep their big alpha and only reliably hit people with enough armor to soak it. Mediums and lights can dance easier and are less likely to get hit with it. Maybe give them more space on maps to dance.

As far as balancing things between clan mediums and IS mediums. Well that's something else entirely

I actually play the Commando and Urbanmech, some of the "weakest" mechs in the game, also other weight classes with challenging mechs. Balance has never been better. Room for improvement but its looking great.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 August 2016 - 02:58 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

There is no logical reason to explain how the firepower output of all weapon systems are linked together and reigned-in by the Power Draw system.

The only explanation is that the Mechs are all abiding by an Honor Code to not exert too much firepower. There is no involvement of recoil, energy demand, or anything at all that unifies all weapons' ability to fire.

Apparently our Mechs are sentient.

[Quaamik]

Personally, I think this is going to suck, and suck worse for clans.

Clan weapons in general have higher damage per shot, but take more time to deal damage and deliver less pinpoint. So any damage output based limiting mechanic hurts them more. Examples:

assume 30 point damage limit

IS AC 10 vs Clan AC 10
- Both deliver 10 damage per "shot"
- Assuming space and weight required are there, 3 of either could be carried.
- IS gets a 30 point pinpoint out to 450 m
- Clan gets a 30 point "burst" that typically spreads across 2 components out to 540 m

IS ERLL vs Clan ERLL
- 9 dmg / 8 heat vs 11 damage / 10 heat
- IS can fire 3 for 27 points, delivered over 1.25 seconds out to 675 m
- Clan can fire 2, for 22 points, delivered over 1.5 seconds out to 740 m

IS LPL vs Clan LPL
- 11 dmg / 7 heat vs 13 dmg / 10 heat
- IS can fire 2 for 22 points, delivered in 0.67 seconds out to 365 m
- Clan can fire 2, for 26 points, delivered in 1.12 seconds out to 600 m

IS ML vs Clan ERML vs Clan ERSL (Closest range match)
- 5 dmg / 4 heat / 270 range vs 7 dmg / 6 heat / 405 range vs 5 dmg / 3 heat / 200 range
- IS can fire 6 MLs for 30 damage delivered over 0.90 seconds out to 270 m
- Clan can fire 4 ERMLs for 28 damage delivered over 1.15 seconds out to 405 m
- Clan can fire 6 ERSLs for 30 damage delivered over 1.0 seconds out to 200 m
- Clan ERSL does have a slightly shorter time between shots.

[Quaamik]

Though I think its a bit off topic, Mechs don't have to be evenly balanced against each other individually. They have to each have a role, get rewarded for that role, have that role be needed in balance for a good team, and be fun to play. A good team should need 2-4 of each mech weight class to win against a similarly balanced team. A team with 6 assaults should lose against a balanced team, just like one with 6 lights.

A urbie, for example, should not have the same role as a direwolf. It shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe with one. What it should be is fun to play and have some role. The role it had in Battletech (running joke) isn't acceptable if you want to sell them. What its role should be I haven't a clue, but them the urbie is an odd duck - having only been made to sate demands by fans of it.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again here. Balance is a mix of toughness, maneuverability and firepower. To make the game playable and enjoyable for every player, in most one v one situations assuming a moderate amount of cover:
A light should take an assault
A medium should take a light
A heavy should take a medium
An assault should take a heavy
A light should be evenly matched with a heavy
A medium should be evenly matched against an assault

That doesn't mean a light can face off against an assault in a narrow canyon, from in front of the assault, and survive. It means that given an area with some boulders and buildings it can duck behind, and room to run around, a light should be able to run rings around an assault and peck the thing to death. That same light, facing a heavy in he same terrain, should find the heavy just maneuverable enough to where its a tossup who is going to get cored first, the slow heavy or the light that catches one to many shots.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Quaamik, on 17 August 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

Personally, I think this is going to suck, and suck worse for clans.

Clan weapons in general have higher damage per shot, but take more time to deal damage and deliver less pinpoint. So any damage output based limiting mechanic hurts them more. Examples:

assume 30 point damage limit

IS AC 10 vs Clan AC 10
- Both deliver 10 damage per "shot"
- Assuming space and weight required are there, 3 of either could be carried.
- IS gets a 30 point pinpoint out to 450 m
- Clan gets a 30 point "burst" that typically spreads across 2 components out to 540 m

IS ERLL vs Clan ERLL
- 9 dmg / 8 heat vs 11 damage / 10 heat
- IS can fire 3 for 27 points, delivered over 1.25 seconds out to 675 m
- Clan can fire 2, for 22 points, delivered over 1.5 seconds out to 740 m

IS LPL vs Clan LPL
- 11 dmg / 7 heat vs 13 dmg / 10 heat
- IS can fire 2 for 22 points, delivered in 0.67 seconds out to 365 m
- Clan can fire 2, for 26 points, delivered in 1.12 seconds out to 600 m

IS ML vs Clan ERML vs Clan ERSL (Closest range match)
- 5 dmg / 4 heat / 270 range vs 7 dmg / 6 heat / 405 range vs 5 dmg / 3 heat / 200 range
- IS can fire 6 MLs for 30 damage delivered over 0.90 seconds out to 270 m
- Clan can fire 4 ERMLs for 28 damage delivered over 1.15 seconds out to 405 m
- Clan can fire 6 ERSLs for 30 damage delivered over 1.0 seconds out to 200 m
- Clan ERSL does have a slightly shorter time between shots.

It's better to compare by profile than by class.

iERLL vs cLPL vs cERLL:
-iERLL: 3 for 27 out to 675m for 24 heat over 1.25s for 15 tons and 6 slots
-cLPL: 2 for 26 out to 600m for 20 heat over 1.12s for 12 tons and 4 slots
-cERLL: 2 for 22 out to 740m for 20 heat over 1.50s for 8 tons and 2 slots

iLPL vs cMPL:
-iLPL: 2 for 22 out to 365m for 14 heat over 0.67s for 14 tons and 4 slots
-cMPL: 3 for 24 out to 330m for 18 heat over 0.85s for 8 tons and 3 slots*

iMPL vs cSPL
-iMPL: 5 for 30 out to 220m for 20 heat over 0.60s for 10 tons and 5 slots
-cSPL: 5 for 30 out to 165m for 15 heat over 0.75s for 5 tons and 5 slots*

iLL vs cERML
-iLL: 3 for 27 out to 450m for 21 heat over 1.00s for 15 tons and 6 slots
-cERML: 4 for 28 out to 405m for 24 heat over 1.15s for 4 tons and 4 slots*

iML vs cERSL
-iML: 6 for 30 out to 270m for 24 heat over 0.90s for 6 tons and 6 slots
-cERSL: 6 for 30 out to 200m for 18 heat over 1.00s for 3 tons and 6 slots*

*The 1.5x ranger nerf to small and medium class Clan lasers hurt the pairings greatly which lead to the rise of the UAC-10.

[Steel Claws]

My two cents on this is that PGI is trying to fix a problem that really don't exist anymore. Everything has too much heat or been nerfed too much to fire huge alphas anymore. I see a lot more mechs that do damage over time in game than with huge alphas. Yes there are still a few that run big alpha mechs but they are far from a problem.

Then there is the whole idea that big alphas are the bane of the mech world. I would point out that the 2 CUC 10, 2 CUAC 5 Kodi or Dire Whale has just a 30 point alpha and then the recharge times stagger fire. Two of the most dangerous builds and this heat draw model wouldn't affect them in the slightest. Lets not forget the 6 ERSL lights. In a battle one on one I pick them over an Assault with a 50 point alpha every time.

And what of the mechs that come stock with a bigger alpha than 30. There are several.

Basically all that they will do is piss off some more players and thin the already shrinking player base while making the game too frustrating to play for many. Mechs like the Dakka Kodi are going to be harder to stop and harder to deal with and even more people will switch to these penalty free builds that are already kings of the court. And it will all be because a small minority think there I a problem and even if there is, this isn't the answer. My prediction is that it will only make things worse.