376 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'm not naive, I understand there will always be a meta, but if you think the meta is always the same level of shallow then I would disagree, because the diversity within even MWO's meta has seen shifts over the years, with the poptart and closed beta metas being the least diverse while the tourney client meta is probably the most diverse it has ever been.

Well, the beginnig was the all-caps line from Gas Guzzler that the dakka meta is already here and I disagree with that. I disagree that addition of PowerDraw even in its simpliest form will limit game to dakka only. But I want to get where we are making different conclusions or missing common points as for now we are more or less in line of what's what.

By the way, what are the differences in torney mechs and weapons stats that diverce meta other than that is turney? I mean, meta shifts in this game even without weapon changes, just by adding mechs (and those mechs change builds on other mechs? how?).

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

All games are aimed at trying to balance the game, and no balance attempt is perfect which often shifts the meta, sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better, it is a never-ending game of whack-a-mole. The difference between our balance overlord and other games though is that they are more iterative and generally listen to good players and understand the implications of their balance changes.

I have no data on how the SC was but due to dates doubt those were the players feedback. More like deep data mining. And that is not easy. Plus, keep in mind the absence of needed sufficient quntity of number programmers time their skill in PGI. The solutions have to be simple (and server authorative). These are reaaly harsh limits on what could be done.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

A bar could easily indicate "20" for half a second before clearing, indicating that up until that 0.5 seconds clears, you can do another 10 damage without triggering ghost heat. Its definitely not a 0/1.

With pings around 100 miliseconds (and average latency around twice of that) to have a bar that flashes for 500 miliseconds with server authorative checks and triggers? Really, are you ultra-comp player to get that time? It's a blink. Useless for most of the players. And competitve players really know their builds to not need that. So I really doubt that 0.5 second taken from GH. Won't be surprised if would be left that way, but strongly doubt. But this was already been said.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Well, the beginnig was the all-caps line from Gas Guzzler that the dakka meta is already here and I disagree with that.

It may not be in puglandia completely, but it definitely was before the Kodiak dropped due to the Dakkahammer and Dakka Mauler.

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

By the way, what are the differences in torney mechs and weapons stats that diverce meta other than that is turney? I mean, meta shifts in this game even without weapon changes, just by adding mechs (and those mechs change builds on other mechs? how?).

No rescale or any of the quirk nerfs that followed it.

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

I have no data on how the SC was but due to dates doubt those were the players feedback. More like deep data mining. And that is not easy. Plus, keep in mind the absence of needed sufficient quntity of number programmers time their skill in PGI. The solutions have to be simple (and server authorative). These are reaaly harsh limits on what could be done.

You have to be careful even with stat mining, because certain mechs may be designed to be niche, and that's fine, but no one should be under the expectation that everything needs to be equal in usage but also stats don't always tell you whether that niche is being filled by that mech or whether it is just getting used. Don't get me wrong, statistics can be powerful tools with balancing, but they shouldn't be the sole deciding factor especially since it is easy to use them wrong.

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

You have to be careful even with stat mining, because certain mechs may be designed to be niche, and that's fine, but no one should be under the expectation that everything needs to be equal in usage but also stats don't always tell you whether that niche is being filled by that mech or whether it is just getting used. Don't get me wrong, statistics can be powerful tools with balancing, but they shouldn't be the sole deciding factor especially since it is easy to use them wrong.

Quote

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Yes, I have all kind of data to mine and have all sorts of things popping out of it at random change of parameters. But... well, it is not I who feed stats to Paul. And I have no access to servers to query for data (and that data would've been really nice to have). More's the pity.

Edited by pyrocomp, 16 August 2016 - 10:56 AM.

[SilentWolff]

Put a fork in her gentlemen. Once this stupid draw system goes online, whatever small population is left from all their prior miscues, will be headed for the hills.
GG PGI. Please shutter your doors so HBS can make an MW game worth a fl_lck.

[cazidin]

ImyerHuckleberry, on 16 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Put a fork in her gentlemen. Once this stupid draw system goes online, whatever small population is left from all their prior miscues, will be headed for the hills.
GG PGI. Please shutter your doors so HBS can make an MW game worth a fl_lck.

Just a thought, but... what if it isn't that bad? Pragmatism suggests that this will simply result in much less laser vomit alpha strikes of DOOM and not much else will change.

[Gas Guzzler]

cazidin, on 16 August 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Just a thought, but... what if it isn't that bad? Pragmatism suggests that this will simply result in much less laser vomit alpha strikes of DOOM and not much else will change.

If your opinion is that lasers should be second rate weapons and that balance isn't important than yeah that isn't that bad.

But some of us like options. Some of us like that SRMs, dakka, PPFLD, and lasers are all actually in parity with each other. Some mechs are hamstrung by heavy locked equipment that must use lasers to be effective.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 August 2016 - 12:02 PM.

[SilentWolff]

cazidin, on 16 August 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Just a thought, but... what if it isn't that bad? Pragmatism suggests that this will simply result in much less laser vomit alpha strikes of DOOM and not much else will change.

Sorry, I've had a front row seat for PGI's BS since closed beta, color me extremely skeptical.

[Andi Nagasia]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

With pings around 100 miliseconds (and average latency around twice of that) to have a bar that flashes for 500 miliseconds with server authorative checks and triggers? Really, are you ultra-comp player to get that time? It's a blink. Useless for most of the players. And competitve players really know their builds to not need that. So I really doubt that 0.5 second taken from GH. Won't be surprised if would be left that way, but strongly doubt. But this was already been said.

we are assuming that the time will stay at half a second, if its longer than i think it will matter,
but as of now we dont know, im ganna do a test run Day 1PTS, and make a Video,
i will submit it here after, so we can examine the initial findings,

ImyerHuckleberry, on 16 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Put a fork in her gentlemen. Once this stupid draw system goes online, whatever small population is left from all their prior miscues, will be headed for the hills.
GG PGI. Please shutter your doors so HBS can make an MW game worth a fl_lck.

why do some people think PGI should Fail so HBS will make a MW game?
have they ever made a live action game like MWO?(loved NECROPOLIS BTW)
turn based is one thing, its much harder to make and balance a FPS,
-
also if they did take on a MW game it would be after their Current (BattleTech),
and as they are likely to make an expansion or 3(see ShadowRun) it may be 10 years before another MW game,
do you really want this game to die so you can wait another Decade before another MW game, if that,

we dont know how Power Draw will play out, so lets not get ahead of our selves,
lets see how it in on the PTS, id Encourage you to Download and Test with us ImyerHuckleberry,
its the only way to know for certain how it will play out is to play it out,

[Felicitatem Parco]

Everything PGI does causes the growing player population to shrink. If they dip a doughnut in coffee, some Founder will be offended and quit.

[Kirkland Langue]

Prosperity Park, on 16 August 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Everything PGI does causes the growing player population to shrink. If they dip a doughnut in coffee, some Founder will be offended and quit.

I saw a video of PGI dunking a doughnut, trust me - you don't want to see it. It might even be illegal in some Countries.

[Alex Morgaine]

Kirkland Langue, on 16 August 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I saw a video of PGI dunking a doughnut, trust me - you don't want to see it. It might even be illegal in some Countries.

It was sooooooo nauuuuughty.

[RestosIII]

Kirkland Langue, on 16 August 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I saw a video of PGI dunking a doughnut, trust me - you don't want to see it. It might even be illegal in some Countries.

What they did with the doughnut afterwards though... That's what will haunt me for the rest of my days.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

I mean, they aren't going to be able to create a fun game either, because Paul the Nerfinator will ruin all fun to be had.

also not untrue but Id rather they fail on their own merit rather than chasing the esport unicorn -.-

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

A bar could easily indicate "20" for half a second before clearing, indicating that up until that 0.5 seconds clears, you can do another 10 damage without triggering ghost heat. Its definitely not a 0/1.

I rather hope it's continuous decay rather than a instant reset like flamer ghost heat, which is dumb

[Andi Nagasia]

ironnightbird, on 16 August 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

I rather hope it's continuous decay rather than a instant reset like flamer ghost heat, which is dumb

i do as well,

if its a 1.5second delay, then 4-6UAC5s cant be double Tapped,
as doing so would be 40-60Damage and would Incur Ghost Heat(Ballistic Balance)

[Gas Guzzler]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 August 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

i do as well,

if its a 1.5second delay, then 4-6UAC5s cant be double Tapped,
as doing so would be 40-60Damage and would Incur Ghost Heat(Ballistic Balance)

Yay more restrictions!

Sounds so fun!

I want balance, not to nerf laser vomit AND dakka. Then PPFLD alphas take over, so we go from 3 ways to play non-brawly and take it down to 1. Sounds like a hard fail to me.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 August 2016 - 09:27 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

I may be alone in this thought.

But honestly, why not just give us bloom reticle and do away with instant convergence.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Yay more restrictions!

Sounds so fun!

I want balance, not to nerf laser vomit AND dakka. Then PPFLD alphas take over, so we go from 3 ways to play non-brawly and take it down to 1. Sounds like a hard fail to me.

we all want balance but balance comes at a Price,

their are only 2 True Solutions,
1) Buff Everything to the Same level, but this Raises the bar but leads to power creep and angry people,
2) Nerf Everything to the Same level, this lowered the bar but people lose their Favorites & get angry,
(3rd isnt really an option but a combination of Solution 1 & 2)

if Power Draw Nerfs Everything to 30Damage, and Dakka isnt effected,
then they make the cooldown 1.5 to deal with the multi AC5 Problem, then all is Nerfed All is Fair,
if something is too weak at that point then perhaps they can buff the weapon,

is it the best solution? maybe not, but it could help and replace Ghost-Heat,
if it doesnt work out then it doesnt work out, but we have to at least try it and see,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 August 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Carrioncrows, on 16 August 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

I may be alone in this thought.

But honestly, why not just give us bloom reticle and do away with instant convergence.

I think for them it's more a technical issue. If I remember correctly they tried it during closed beta and the lag made it unplayable. They're probably not confident in making it work without further messing up hit registration. So instead we get work around.


Personally I just want to see how it'll play out and I hope people will give it a fair chance. Not just scream their heads off because their favorite thing got nerfed.