376 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

MechaBattler, on 16 August 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

I think for them it's more a technical issue. If I remember correctly they tried it during closed beta and the lag made it unplayable. They're probably not confident in making it work without further messing up hit registration. So instead we get work around.


Personally I just want to see how it'll play out and I hope people will give it a fair chance. Not just scream their heads off because their favorite thing got nerfed.

Then they are doing it wrong. lol

Almost Every FPS game in the entire world managed it. Where did they go wrong?

[MechaBattler]

Carrioncrows, on 16 August 2016 - 10:23 PM, said:

Then they are doing it wrong. lol

Almost Every FPS game in the entire world managed it. Where did they go wrong?

I've heard whoever they hired to do the initial programming on the game left. And PGI has been rebuilding it from that ever since. I don't pretend to know the nuances of the game's code. That's just what I've heard.

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

If your opinion is that lasers should be second rate weapons and that balance isn't important than yeah that isn't that bad.

But some of us like options. Some of us like that SRMs, dakka, PPFLD, and lasers are all actually in parity with each other. Some mechs are hamstrung by heavy locked equipment that must use lasers to be effective.

I think you misunderstood. I'm saying that Ghost Heat II is unlikely to affect energy beyond making high alpha laser vomit builds either less effective and really, was taking 50-60 points of damage ever fun? Lasers will still be good weapons. Dakka and PPFLD may be indirectly buffed, but I doubt by much.

I'm not saying I like Ghost Heat I or Ghost Heat II, I'm just pragmatic and think that they won't fundamentally alter the game in any significant way.

ImyerHuckleberry, on 16 August 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Sorry, I've had a front row seat for PGI's BS since closed beta, color me extremely skeptical.

What shade is "Extremely Skeptical"?

[Gas Guzzler]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 August 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

we all want balance but balance comes at a Price,

their are only 2 True Solutions,
1) Buff Everything to the Same level, but this Raises the bar but leads to power creep and angry people,
2) Nerf Everything to the Same level, this lowered the bar but people lose their Favorites & get angry,
(3rd isnt really an option but a combination of Solution 1 & 2)

if Power Draw Nerfs Everything to 30Damage, and Dakka isnt effected,
then they make the cooldown 1.5 to deal with the multi AC5 Problem, then all is Nerfed All is Fair,
if something is too weak at that point then perhaps they can buff the weapon,

is it the best solution? maybe not, but it could help and replace Ghost-Heat,
if it doesnt work out then it doesnt work out, but we have to at least try it and see,
Edit- Spelling

2 PPCs and 2 AC5s is all good though <- dominant

Honestly there is the balance thing and then there is the gameplay aspect of it. I don't see how jumping through hoops in the mech lab is possibly going to be fun. What is the point of assault mechs if not only is there alpha limited but there DPS is limited as well? All of this and the original motive is questionable..

All they have to do is buff MGs, LBs, IS SLs, AC2s and LRMs for balance. I doubt anyone would cry if those were a little more useful, LRMs would still probably bring tears though.

cazidin, on 17 August 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood. I'm saying that Ghost Heat II is unlikely to affect energy beyond making high alpha laser vomit builds either less effective and really, was taking 50-60 points of damage ever fun? Lasers will still be good weapons. Dakka and PPFLD may be indirectly buffed, but I doubt by much.

The only point of taking lasers is for a high alpha build. Otherwise you are better off taking dakka or PPFLD, if you are anything but a light. So yeah, Ghost Heat II will directly nerf any non-long range laser build (the cLPL and ERLL boats already have to volley fire so won't really be affected), and with that, a pile of mechs that aren't really good for doing anything else get thrown in the trash heap. That sucks.

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

The only point of taking lasers is for a high alpha build. Otherwise you are better off taking dakka or PPFLD, if you are anything but a light. So yeah, Ghost Heat II will directly nerf any non-long range laser build (the cLPL and ERLL boats already have to volley fire so won't really be affected), and with that, a pile of mechs that aren't really good for doing anything else get thrown in the trash heap. That sucks.

*Please read in the most friendly but facetious manner possible. I do understand your argument, but you're looking at one extremely small variable and are claiming that Lasers, as a whole, will be Mediocre™ if you can't do 50-60 damage with them and do so in 2-3 alpha strikes.

Yeah. I see your point. Lasers, being PPFLD, can miss because of their low velocity and their tonnage is so very high! I have to sacrifice engine or critical slots to make space for this mediocre™ weapon system. Ghost Heat II will completely ruin this game and I won't give PGI another $20 unless they release a mechpack I REALLY want - but only then - maybe...

[Kirkland Langue]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 August 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

their are only 2 True Solutions,
1) Buff Everything to the Same level, but this Raises the bar but leads to power creep and angry people,
2) Nerf Everything to the Same level, this lowered the bar but people lose their Favorites & get angry,
(3rd isnt really an option but a combination of Solution 1 & 2)

Wrong; and I don't just mean about the incorrect usage of the word "their", when you mean "there".
Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong.

The original Battletech already gave you the correct answer.
Do you think that Battletech Mechs were ever even slightly balanced against each other? The answer is no.
Yet this game uses exactly the same mechs and people actually expect the mechs here to magically become balanced?
IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN - people need to get that through their thick skulls.

The correct answer is a BV system that takes into account the specific loadout of each mech - and then when you select 24 players for a game, you divide the players so that the teams are as close as can be on BV.

That's the best answer you are going to come up with. But, of course, the other half of the issue is how PGI rewards players - if the only thing you reward is damage then the only thing that will matter is how much damage a mech can dish out.

[Gas Guzzler]

cazidin, on 17 August 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

*Please read in the most friendly but facetious manner possible. I do understand your argument, but you're looking at one extremely small variable and are claiming that Lasers, as a whole, will be Mediocre™ if you can't do 50-60 damage with them and do so in 2-3 alpha strikes.

Yeah. I see your point. Lasers, being PPFLD, can miss because of their low velocity and their tonnage is so very high! I have to sacrifice engine or critical slots to make space for this mediocre™ weapon system. Ghost Heat II will completely ruin this game and I won't give PGI another $20 unless they release a mechpack I REALLY want - but only then - maybe...

I don't really care about the fact that lasers are hit scan and PPCs/AC5s and Gauss are projectiles. It is really not a big deal. People make such a big deal out of the fact that lasers are hit scan and easy to use. It typically goes something like this:

Stands out of cover, gets killed by lasers, "grrrr he didn't even have to aim, if he wasn't using such an easy to use weapon I would have got him"

When in reality, its all about being out positioned.

I swear people act like lasers are auto-aim on CT weapons, with no duration.

But seriously. I don't give a rats *** how heavy or how many slots individual weapons take up. What matters is the end result.

Warhammers with AC5s or PPCs and UAC5s are BETTER than Warhammers with laser vomit, despite the PPFLD projectiles./heavier weapons/more slots. (More slots is kind of false, because all those DHS that you need for effective laser vomit builds fill up your mech completely). This is one example, but seriously its the end result that matters. You can't pick apart the individual weapons. They have always been heavier and taken up more slots. That didn't stop them from being top tier back in the poptart days or the 4 PPC Stalker days.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 August 2016 - 10:14 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

The correct answer is a BV system that takes into account the specific loadout of each mech - and then when you select 24 players for a game, you divide the players so that the teams are as close as can be on BV.

Yes and we know how loved BV was in that game, not to mention BV still won't solve that no one will want to play a mech like the first Ostscout 7K which just has a TAG, electronics, JJs, and speed. Having mechs that are virtually inconsequential to the actual match is silly, you want people to feel like they are actually worth something in a match, not just a pair of eyes and that's it.

There is a reason why what would typically be given high BV are some of the most often played mechs, because all but masochists want to play the stock Urbz and be a running joke of a mech.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 August 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

I don't really care about the fact that lasers are hit scan and PPCs/AC5s and Gauss are projectiles. It is really not a big deal. People make such a big deal out of the fact that lasers are hit scan and easy to use. It typically goes something like this:

Stands out of cover, gets killed by lasers, "grrrr he didn't even have to aim, if he wasn't using such an easy to use weapon I would have got him"

When in reality, its all about being out positioned.

I swear people act like lasers are auto-aim on CT weapons, with no duration.

But seriously. I don't give a rats *** how heavy or how many slots individual weapons take up. What matters is the end result.

Warhammers with AC5s or PPCs and UAC5s are BETTER than Warhammers with laser vomit, despite the PPFLD projectiles./heavier weapons/more slots. (More slots is kind of false, because all those DHS that you need for effective laser vomit builds fill up your mech completely). This is one example, but seriously its the end result that matters. You can't pick apart the individual weapons. They have always been heavier and taken up more slots. That didn't stop them from being top tier back in the poptart days or the 4 PPC Stalker days.

You're just going to ignore the advantages that lasers have over ballistics? Much less tonnage, fewer critical slots and are hit scan? Lasers will be fine. Play the PTS when it's out with me and I'm sure we'll see that not much changes other than this one thing.

I grant that DHS will take up critical slots, and that you have to hold the laser on the target but you seem almost completely opposed to it because we've nicknamed it Ghost Heat II and you won't have ALPHA STRIKES OF DOOM! This may be a poor observation, but it's how you're carrying yourself at this time from my perspective.

Edited by cazidin, 17 August 2016 - 11:01 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

cazidin, on 17 August 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

You're just going to ignore the advantages that lasers have over ballistics? Much less tonnage, fewer critical slots and are hit scan? Lasers will be fine. Play the PTS when it's out with me and I'm sure we'll see that not much changes other than this one thing.

Dude did you ignore what I just said?

The advantages of ballistics are CLEARLY outweighing the disadvantages already. Your just going to ignore the clearly superior ballistic mechs because lasers are lighter? The sum of the parts is what matters, you have to consider the advantages and disadvantages of both weapon systems. Right now, ballistics and PPFLD are winning out.

I would be happy to play the PTS with you to show you how dominant ballistics will be in the absence of laser vomit.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 August 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Dude did you ignore what I just said?

The advantages of ballistics are CLEARLY outweighing the disadvantages already. Your just going to ignore the clearly superior ballistic mechs because lasers are lighter? The sum of the parts is what matters, you have to consider the advantages and disadvantages of both weapon systems. Right now, ballistics and PPFLD are winning out.

I would be happy to play the PTS with you to show you how dominant ballistics will be in the absence of laser vomit.

Alright. You are aware that energy draw will affect Ballistics too, though? In the usual unforeseen but probably quite catastrophic ways.

[Gas Guzzler]

cazidin, on 17 August 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Alright. You are aware that energy draw will affect Ballistics too, though? In the usual unforeseen but probably quite catastrophic ways.

I have explained this many times.

Energy draw is about limiting alpha damage, to somewhere around 30 damage. So I ask you, what loadouts require 30+ damage alphas, and what loadouts require 30 or less damage alphas?

4 AC5s is only 20 damage, but the DPS and heat efficiency is much better than laser vomit builds, and as a whole is more effective than builds that do 58 damage at once already. So what hope does laser vomit have when it can't even alpha any more? Firing in groups becomes more of a DPS game, where the ballistics win out. PPFLD will win out by instant poke damage, and no length of time on target.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 August 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I want to remind people that lasers had the higher damage/lower tonnage/lower slots/hitscan things going for them back in the day when PPCs and ACs and Gauss were all the rage. Back then, the justification was "Yeah, they do more damage, but because you have to hold them on target, their damage is spread all over the place". Just goes to show you how people will defend and point out ONLY the disadvantages of whatever isn't killing them consistently.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 August 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[SilentWolff]

cazidin, on 17 August 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

What shade is &quot;Extremely Skeptical&quot;?

A salty white I believe

Edited by ImyerHuckleberry, 17 August 2016 - 01:41 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

ImyerHuckleberry, on 17 August 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

A salty white I believe ������



A salty white I believe ������



A salty white I believe ������

what are you trying to say?

[Kirkland Langue]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 August 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yes and we know how loved BV was in that game, not to mention BV still won't solve that no one will want to play a mech like the first Ostscout 7K which just has a TAG, electronics, JJs, and speed. Having mechs that are virtually inconsequential to the actual match is silly, you want people to feel like they are actually worth something in a match, not just a pair of eyes and that's it.

There is a reason why what would typically be given high BV are some of the most often played mechs, because all but masochists want to play the stock Urbz and be a running joke of a mech.

Here's the thing: Battletech is the game this game is based upon.
In a nutshell, we all signed up to play a game where the mechs are going to be inherently unbalanced.

Now players, such as yourself, are demanding that all mechs become magically balanced. Good Luck With That. As I asked in the other thread: What about the Kodiak Makes it OP?
The answer: "EVERYTHING!!!"

yea.... no. that's why you can't have mechs from battletech, and then complain about them not being equal. They Were NEVER equal. They weren't designed to be equal.

You mention that nobody would want to play Urbie, because it would be a stupid mech. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA too bad. I never bought Urbie, because it's a stupid mech and I thought the community was stupid to ask for it and PGI was even stupider to create it. OF COURSE IT WAS GOING TO BE DUMB.

And now we have people like you who want this joke of a mech to be on par with a Direwolf.
Probably demand that all students get the same grades in school, whether they do the homework; take the tests; or even try - or not.

Edited by Kirkland Langue, 17 August 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

Here's the thing: Battletech is the game this game is based upon.
In a nutshell, we all signed up to play a game where the mechs are going to be inherently unbalanced.

Now players, such as yourself, are demanding that all mechs become magically balanced. Good Luck With That. As I asked in the other thread: What about the Kodiak Makes it OP?
The answer: "EVERYTHING!!!"

yea.... no. that's why you can't have mechs from battletech, and then complain about them not being equal. They Were NEVER equal. They weren't designed to be equal.

You mention that nobody would want to play Urbie, because it would be a stupid mech. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA too bad. I never bought Urbie, because it's a stupid mech and I thought the community was stupid to ask for it and PGI was even stupider to create it. OF COURSE IT WAS GOING TO BE DUMB.

And now we have people like you who want this joke of a mech to be on par with a Direwolf.
Probably demand that all students get the same grades in school, whether they do the homework; take the tests; or even try - or not.

BV only works when you are controlling a group of mechs, not when you sign up to be the low BV ****. So like, you have a set amount of battle value and outfit your team to be equal to that battle value, so you can spend it on whichever mechs you choose, but you don't have to resign yourself to be in the low BV **** mech. So it will work perfectly for BattleTech, but not MechWarrior. What works in BattleTech doesn't work in MechWarrior. Its not that hard to tell the difference.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

Here's the thing: Battletech is the game this game is based upon.

Based on does not mean exact replica, just putting that out there. This is a PvP game, game design rules over the source material unless we are intent on separating this game into tiers based on weight class like WoT and others do, in which case I'm fine with (in the sense I'll finally be free from this game) but don't expect many people to be as excited about this game then.

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

Probably demand that all students get the same grades in school, whether they do the homework; take the tests; or even try - or not.

Quite the non-sequitur here. These two situations have NOTHING to do with each other, but if you want to make ridiculous quantum leap conclusions by all means continue.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 August 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[Kirkland Langue]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

BV only works when you are controlling a group of mechs, not when you sign up to be the low BV ****. So like, you have a set amount of battle value and outfit your team to be equal to that battle value, so you can spend it on whichever mechs you choose, but you don't have to resign yourself to be in the low BV **** mech. So it will work perfectly for BattleTech, but not MechWarrior. What works in BattleTech doesn't work in MechWarrior. Its not that hard to tell the difference.

Who says that we should be only controlling one mech each?
There are a LOT of people who want "respawns" in Quick Games.

Why doesn't every player just get a dropdeck of xyz BV total?
You know, kinda like how CW works but instead of tonnage use BV?


I'm not even trying to argue that this is what should be done - what I am doing is showing that it COULD be done.
Instead you want to try and argue that Urbie should be able to deal just as much damage as a Direwolf.

Go ahead, give it those +500% damage quirks.

Edited by Kirkland Langue, 17 August 2016 - 12:51 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

Who says that we should be only controlling one mech each?
There are a LOT of people who want "respawns" in Quick Games.

Why doesn't every player just get a dropdeck of xyz BV total?
You know, kinda like how CW works but instead of tonnage use BV?


I'm not even trying to argue that this is what should be done - what I am doing is showing that it COULD be done.
Instead you want to try and argue that Urbie should be able to deal just as much damage as a Direwolf.

Go ahead, give it those +500% damage quirks.

I mean we could do that in CW. I never said that was a bad idea, that's probably a good idea (giving purpose to some bad assaults) but PGI would have to develop a BV system, as the one straight from BT probably wouldn't be balanced. But respawns in quick play... the community is very divided on that..