376 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

So my main problem with this power draw thing is this:

• If it limits just alphas, it is messing with the delicate balance between burst damage and dps oriented builds which right now is almost where it should be (with dakka being potentially too strong).
  
• If it limits both DPS and alphas, what makes it diffferent from just making heat more restricting, both in capacity and dissipation, which is honestly what should've happened before lasers got nerfed? Why do we need some extra rule set on top of an existing one when both do the same thing. I feel like PGI just never understood the purpose of heat in context of this game, the fact the Gauss Rifle (a heat neutral weapon) has been a problem with balance since day one should've told us this much.

You left TT crowd out of equation that had at some point loud outcry 'why X firing N of M is getting hot while in TT that resulted only in 1 heat?'.

As to Gauss meta (just how many mech can mount two of those? and are they good against lights?) and 4xAC/5 meta (let's be honest 4x5x-UAC/5 and how many mechs can successfully run this build?) we will see. But most probably the fear of allmighty dakka invasion is a little premature. Plus, to me the most probable scenario will include DPS limit in this or that form. And there most probably will be another forum flame war 'DPS is more limited' vs 'Alpha is more limited'.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

As to Gauss meta (just how many mech can mount two of those? and are they good against lights?) and 4xAC/5 meta (let's be honest 4x5x-UAC/5 and how many mechs can successfully run this build?) we will see.

It isn't about how many can pull it off, we should've learned that from the poptart days where there was really only one mech per weight class that mattered because of how limited the meta was (and how strong a poptart could be), same potential scenario here.

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Plus, to me the most probable scenario will include DPS limit in this or that form.

The problem is, we have heard nothing on that front about it, from the beginning this has been sold as a way to limit alphas without any holes like Ghost Heat and it seems they what to punish larger alphas harder than ghost heat currently does.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 August 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

But most probably the fear of allmighty dakka invasion is a little premature.

HOW CAN YOU SAY THIS WHEN IT IS ALREADY HERE?????

All it takes is one heavy and one assault to run it, and you have a dominant mech in each class. You say that barely any mechs can run it like thats a good thing. So no variety is a good thing? How about having burst vs DPS be balanced instead of just nerfing burst into oblivion?

And if Energy Draw is going to limit DPS, then why do we need heat? It sounds like heat should be able to regulate DPS if it worked properly.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

HOW CAN YOU SAY THIS WHEN IT IS ALREADY HERE?????

All it takes is one heavy and one assault to run it, and you have a dominant mech in each class. You say that barely any mechs can run it like thats a good thing. So no variety is a good thing? How about having burst vs DPS be balanced instead of just nerfing burst into oblivion?

And if Energy Draw is going to limit DPS, then why do we need heat? It sounds like heat should be able to regulate DPS if it worked properly.

The dakka was here when clans went out. What I see now is nothing near it. Maybe tier or game time matters. I even see less ACs combined than there were GR combined before they were nerfed last time. Really, either we really see different games or you are so use to see lasers that seeing more than one mech with ACs is unsual. The dakka will be here when there will be 3-4 mech without M/L lasers per team in a match. Right now, sorry, I cannot agree that what we see is dakka meta rein. More like 'let's try something else and not just lasers'. No offence, but it seems the difference is just when the build archetype can be called 'meta'.

PPC poptarts are also back and what? Dakka is a worse thing? For me PPC poptarts have stronger negative effect on my 'fun' of the game rather than dakka.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

It isn't about how many can pull it off, we should've learned that from the poptart days where there was really only one mech per weight class that mattered because of how limited the meta was (and how strong a poptart could be), same potential scenario here.

The problem is, we have heard nothing on that front about it, from the beginning this has been sold as a way to limit alphas without any holes like Ghost Heat and it seems they what to punish larger alphas harder than ghost heat currently does.

I don't think that all will play two/three specific assaults only in public queue. Really, let's see the PTS and changes to weapon stats done there.
As for the DPS limit... why the heck then an additional HUD bar needed (Russ somwhere said they are preparing that) if, whithout DPS limit it replicates heat bar in every aspect? 0.5 seconds for GH trigger is way too small to bother with that bar and that is not limiting alpha in any reasonable way for any kind of skilled player. This are the basements of my opinion on the question.

EDIT: some typos

Edited by pyrocomp, 16 August 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

The dakka was here when clans went out. What I see now is nothing near it. Maybe tier or game time matters. I even see less ACs combined than there were GR combined before they were nerfed last time. Really, either we really see different games or you are so use to see lasers that seeing more than one mech with ACs is unsual. The dakka will be here when there will be 3-4 mech without M/L lasers per team in a match. Right now, sorry, I cannot agree that what we see is dakka meta rein. More like 'let's try something else and not just lasers'. No offence, but it seems the difference is just when the buil archetype can be called meta.

PPC poptarts are also back and what? Dakka is a worth thing? For me PPC poptarts have stronger negative effect on my 'fun' of the game rather than dakka.

I see all of it. PPFLD, dakka, lasers, SRMs, LRMs even, that's why I don't think we need another mechanic like this. Hop in the public queue in whatever you want as long as it has some sort of synergy, and it will be capable of doing work, except for LRMs still aren't that good but people use them anyway.

Looking at comp play though, its all PPFLD or Dakka or a mix of the two. That speaks volumes.

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't think they are capping damage at 30 every time you fire.

thats exactly what theyre doing

if you simultaneously fire weapons with damage exceeding 30 it costs you an exponential heat penalty

at least thats how ghost heat 2.0 has been described... talk about an unfun mechanic.


so basically a jenner will now have the same firepower as an assault mech because assault mechs will be limited to 30 damage alphas.

Edited by Khobai, 16 August 2016 - 09:48 AM.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

I see all of it. PPFLD, dakka, lasers, SRMs, LRMs even, that's why I don't think we need another mechanic like this. Hop in the public queue in whatever you want as long as it has some sort of synergy, and it will be capable of doing work, except for LRMs still aren't that good but people use them anyway.

Looking at comp play though, its all PPFLD or Dakka or a mix of the two. That speaks volumes.

And now there are two things I want to ask you.
Do you percieve that weapons synergy should be here (like c-LPLs and c-ERMLs) to make so good combos that you are almost forced to use them (and no GH, btw) limiting viable choises for non-T1-old-school-player?
Do you percieve that MWO should be e-sport and have a main target group of competitive players? Or main targer group are casual players? Note, this game was a 'gate' to BT universe to a handful new players.

Bonus question: Is it against some uspoken gameworld rule that sport-build (comp mode) should be no different from the main game mode?

[Khobai]

why is mwo esport even a thing lol?

that still makes me facepalm

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

I don't think that all will play two/three specific assaults only in public queue. Really, let's see the PTS and changes to weapon stats done there.

It all depends on how punishing ghost heat is and whether the reset interval is still half a second.

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

As for the DPS limit... why the heck then an additional HUD bar needed (Russ somwhere said they are preparing that) if, whithout DPS limit it replicates heat bar in every aspect? 0.5 seconds for GH trigger is way too small to bother with that bar and that is not limiting alpha in any reasonable way for any kind of skilled player. This are the basements of my opinion on the question.

The 0.5 seconds is exactly what the bar is for, because there is no information in the HUD on when ghost heat is triggered, which is what they are attempting to resolve with this bar, assuming it has something to do with DPS is a larger assumption.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

It's a heat penalty Blood Wolf. How many times to people say "**** it" and purposely engage ghost heat? Almost never, mechs run hot enough in this game as it is. Especially mechs running lasers.

because for some reason the devs think heat neutral mechs shouldnt exist -.-

I dont get it, would the ability to be heat neutral REALLY break the game that badly? The last mech I remember even being able to do that with was a k-2 with two ac/2s and even then what wasnt being used for ammo was being used for heat sinks

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 16 August 2016 - 09:57 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Do you percieve that MWO should be e-sport and have a main target group of competitive players? Or main targer group are casual players? Note, this game was a 'gate' to BT universe to a handful new players.

Why are you assuming they are mutually exclusive? Do you think all the players in games like LoL, Overwatch, or CSGO are competitive oriented players? E-Sports is a way to advertise your game because the strength of the comp scene is generally indicative of the strength of your player base (meaning you have more people) and considering the core of this game is PvP, what other direction do you really expect this to take?

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Bonus question: Is it against some uspoken gameworld rule that sport-build (comp mode) should be no different from the main game mode?

It is generally said that games should be balanced top-down if that's what you mean.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 August 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

because for some reason the devs think heat neutral mechs shouldnt exist -.-

Well it probably shouldn't otherwise heat as a mechanic would be sort of pointless if it was easy to circumvent.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 August 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

So my main problem with this power draw thing is this:

• If it limits just alphas, it is messing with the delicate balance between burst damage and dps oriented builds which right now is almost where it should be (with dakka being potentially too strong).
  
• If it limits both DPS and alphas, what makes it diffferent from just making heat more restricting, both in capacity and dissipation, which is honestly what should've happened before lasers got nerfed? Why do we need some extra rule set on top of an existing one when both do the same thing. I feel like PGI just never understood the purpose of heat in context of this game, the fact the Gauss Rifle (a heat neutral weapon) has been a problem with balance since day one should've told us this much.

My question is if you equip a bigger energy will it give you more energy to draw from? Cause if not then why do mechs go faster with bigger engines?

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

And now there are two things I want to ask you.
Do you percieve that weapons synergy should be here (like c-LPLs and c-ERMLs) to make so good combos that you are almost forced to use them (and no GH, btw) limiting viable choises for non-T1-old-school-player?
Do you percieve that MWO should be e-sport and have a main target group of competitive players? Or main targer group are casual players? Note, this game was a 'gate' to BT universe to a handful new players.

Bonus question: Is it against some uspoken gameworld rule that sport-build (comp mode) should be no different from the main game mode?

cLPLs + cERMLs is not so good that you are forced to use them. If anything, its the IS laser boats that have been outperforming lately. cERMLs lost their potency with the range nerf, and cLPLs, while great because of their range, when matched with cERMLs essentially just gives you mid range poke with a loong duration. They do synergize with each other in that they are both lasers with similar burn times, but not in their range. No ghost heat, but you also don't get that much out of your cLPLs if you want to use your cERMLs, and that 6 laser alpha creates 44 heat... that's a lot. That is 3 ER PPCs worth of heat essentially. But anyway, you aren't forced to use them in the solo queue. You can use autocannons or ER PPC Gauss, or PPCs and AC5s, or SRMs, or any other combination of weapons that work well with each other. They are really not dominant at all. Just to emphasize, you are NOT forced to use them. ER PPC Gauss on a Timber is both better and more fun. There are other mechs that I have listed before that don't utilize laser vomit but I'm tired of repeating myself. I AM forced to use them on the Executioner, because if I want to even hope of "hitting" like an assault with that mech, I have to bring lasers.

There is no PvP game that caters to casual players.. they will always lose to the people who take the game more seriously which will spoil the fun for them. Can you think of any good PvP games that are good for casual players? Maybe the ones that split the queue into casual and competitive... but... too many buckets for MWO. Competitive here just refers to the competitive mindset players, not necessarily the ones that play in tourneys and stuff, but the ones who are there to min max and give themselves the best advantage they can.

Bonus question: I don't know about a rule but it would be weird to have different game mechanics like that... I don't know though.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 August 2016 - 10:01 AM.

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

The 0.5 seconds is exactly what the bar is for, because there is no information in the HUD on when ghost heat is triggered, which is what they are attempting to resolve with this bar, assuming it has something to do with DPS is a larger assumption.

Thats not a bar, but an 0/1 indicator is needed as the characteristic is 'will trigger GH / will not trigger GH', the bar is rudundant. And as it is code-heavier (both UI and serversid) then I don't think it is that simple. However, knowing PGI, I'll refrain from betting on this.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Why are you assuming they are mutually exclusive?

Because our current devs dont know HOW to balance ESport with a fun game and have the tendancy to destroy fun in the face of esport. Before they got this Esport wild hair up their asses this game was being advertised (on the page and all) as a sim. Funny how that went away huh?

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Thats not a bar, but an 0/1 indicator is needed as the characteristic is 'will trigger GH / will not trigger GH', the bar is rudundant. And as it is code-heavier (both UI and serversid) then I don't think it is that simple. However, knowing PGI, I'll refrain from betting on this.

A bar could easily indicate "20" for half a second before clearing, indicating that up until that 0.5 seconds clears, you can do another 10 damage without triggering ghost heat. Its definitely not a 0/1.

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 August 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Why are you assuming they are mutually exclusive? Do you think all the players in games like LoL, Overwatch, or CSGO are competitive oriented players? E-Sports is a way to advertise your game because the strength of the comp scene is generally indicative of the strength of your player base (meaning you have more people) and considering the core of this game is PvP, what other direction do you really expect this to take?

It is generally said that games should be balanced top-down if that's what you mean.

Ok, do the game you mantion have no meta of useless characters/weapons? Whats about servers? Are there one and the only server with one and the only set of rules? I doubt.
Anyway, the question was more to the point of having 'meta'. Competitive play will always try to use that edge and force player to adapt to the 'meta' build rather then allowing 'comfortable build'. Just think about F1 car. The mass, the fuel used, the tire burn... and they still weight each and every decal before applying it to enforce equal load. Guess the mass of those decals. They try to use each and every option to gain even slightest imaginary edge. Thus in competitive play there alway will be dominant meta. It is a nature of the competitive play. So no use of brining that as example of the meta creep.
As for e-sports advertising... I'm not sure that first Startcraft was ultra-balanced game (it wasn't and balance between faction shifted there as much as here with every patch to ruin strategies). But it is the main strategy e-sport even now. It is not a e-sport game that gains followers, but the followers making the game competitive (on an previously almost abandoned genre field). Really, does CS has those options to make it deep or what? UT tried for the spot, Q3 tried for the spot, both were made as e-sports games. And still here we are. So, main point, dev cannot make an e-sport game, the players can make a game to be e-sport. But those players are casuals at the beginning. Thus the emphasize on the lower tiers.

Edited by pyrocomp, 16 August 2016 - 10:19 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 August 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Because our current devs dont know HOW to balance ESport with a fun game and have the tendancy to destroy fun in the face of esport. Before they got this Esport wild hair up their asses this game was being advertised (on the page and all) as a sim. Funny how that went away huh?

I mean, they aren't going to be able to create a fun game either, because Paul the Nerfinator will ruin all fun to be had.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Thus in competitive play there alway will be dominant meta. It is a nature of the competitive play. So no use of brining that as example of the meta creep.

I'm not naive, I understand there will always be a meta, but if you think the meta is always the same level of shallow then I would disagree, because the diversity within even MWO's meta has seen shifts over the years, with the poptart and closed beta metas being the least diverse while the tourney client meta is probably the most diverse it has ever been.

pyrocomp, on 16 August 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

As for e-sports advertising... I'm not sure that first Startcraft was ultra-balanced game (it wasn't and balance between faction shifted there as much as here with every patch to ruin strategies). But it is the main strategy e-sport even now. It is not a e-sport game that gains followers, but the followers making the game competitive (on an previously almost abandoned genre field). Really, does CS has those options to make it deep or what?

All games are aimed at trying to balance the game, and no balance attempt is perfect which often shifts the meta, sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better, it is a never-ending game of whack-a-mole. The difference between our balance overlord and other games though is that they are more iterative and generally listen to good players and understand the implications of their balance changes.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

cLPLs + cERMLs is not so good that you are forced to use them. If anything, its the IS laser boats that have been outperforming lately. cERMLs lost their potency with the range nerf, and cLPLs, while great because of their range, when matched with cERMLs essentially just gives you mid range poke with a loong duration. They do synergize with each other in that they are both lasers with similar burn times, but not in their range. No ghost heat, but you also don't get that much out of your cLPLs if you want to use your cERMLs, and that 6 laser alpha creates 44 heat... that's a lot. That is 3 ER PPCs worth of heat essentially. But anyway, you aren't forced to use them in the solo queue. You can use autocannons or ER PPC Gauss, or PPCs and AC5s, or SRMs, or any other combination of weapons that work well with each other. They are really not dominant at all. Just to emphasize, you are NOT forced to use them. ER PPC Gauss on a Timber is both better and more fun. There are other mechs that I have listed before that don't utilize laser vomit but I'm tired of repeating myself. I AM forced to use them on the Executioner, because if I want to even hope of "hitting" like an assault with that mech, I have to bring lasers.

There is no PvP game that caters to casual players.. they will always lose to the people who take the game more seriously which will spoil the fun for them. Can you think of any good PvP games that are good for casual players? Maybe the ones that split the queue into casual and competitive... but... too many buckets for MWO. Competitive here just refers to the competitive mindset players, not necessarily the ones that play in tourneys and stuff, but the ones who are there to min max and give themselves the best advantage they can.

Bonus question: I don't know about a rule but it would be weird to have different game mechanics like that... I don't know though.

That was the example and your answer queues me to aks again do you think it is good for the game to have those synergies in ranges or in speeds of in anything making two different weapons function equally? Like cAC5 and CERPPC? And other examples you mentioned?

As for the competitive, as you said, they will use any edge they can get. Thus the competitive play will always be like this patch 'meta' is this. You cannot base the dakka meta creep in all the game on behaviour of selected top group. Those people know how to lead. This does not apply to the casuals (well, effectiveness of c-AC in T2 is the same as of the cLBX, so why bother, really, ACH can run face to face into two dakka DWFs, stop, turn and run away with hands and legs attached, seen that). So, back to inital dakka question. Will PowerDraw swing the balance in general PUG game badly to the dakka build as those build require a better aim? I doubt this.

Bonus: competitve games (torneys or other form of local event) do have strictier rules than just the game. The may go on defined map with defined limitations on what can be used (sometimes headshots are switched off, sometimes health limits are set differently, sometimes some weapons are removed) and what is deemed to be cheating (while that can be legimate game mechanics elsewhere, like getting into specific maps aread), thus many games really have their own rules for casual play and for competitive play. This usually goes in from of different servers with different rules, but still. So why here in MWO the competitve is a measure of all things?