376 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wintersdark, on 15 August 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

That's not entirely fair. Theyve scrapped things that didn't test well in the past too.

The only time I remember that was when there was MASSIVE uproar on the forums that one laser lock on thing they tried to put in. Everything else that I remember being scrapped from the game only happened when it hit the live servers. IE UI 2.0 and everything after that.

Can you refresh my memory and tell me what other things have been scrapped that didnt test well?

Khobai, on 16 August 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

why though? that makes no sense

the whole point of an assault is to put out more firepower than a light

capping both lights and assaults at 30 damage is stupid it defeats the purpose of an assault mech

because um stopping alphas no matter what... um um

but really they cant figure out that putting a cone of fire type idea (IE the convergence idea they had then scrapped) would fix this issue

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 16 August 2016 - 07:44 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I don't think they are capping damage at 30 every time you fire. Your just gonna not want to fire anything that probably might do something more than that.

Khobai, on 16 August 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

why though? that makes no sense

the whole point of an assault is to put out more firepower than a light

capping both lights and assaults at 30 damage is stupid it defeats the purpose of an assault mech

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 16 August 2016 - 07:45 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

It's a heat penalty Blood Wolf. How many times to people say "**** it" and purposely engage ghost heat? Almost never, mechs run hot enough in this game as it is. Especially mechs running lasers.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

It's a heat penalty Blood Wolf. How many times to people say "**** it" and purposely engage ghost heat? Almost never, mechs run hot enough in this game as it is. Especially mechs running lasers.

I agree in the usage of the word "penalty" as far as if your going around thinking your gonna fire all the lazors all day, then yea their should be some consequences I don't want to argue semantics here..

[Gas Guzzler]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

I agree in the usage of the word "penalty" as far as if your going around thinking your gonna fire all the lazors all day, then yea their should be some consequences I don't want to argue semantics here..

The consequences with a laser vomit are running extremely hot and not being able to sustain fire. The base heat is what you have to manage, any other bonus heat is a penalty.

But what's all the lasers? 2 cLPLs and an ER ML? 5 ER MLs? 3 IS LPLs? 6 cSPLs? 6 MPLs? All of these will be penalized under the new system.

But you are good with firing all the ACs all day then?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 August 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

The consequences with a laser vomit are running extremely hot and not being able to sustain fire. The base heat is what you have to manage, any other bonus heat is a penalty.

But what's all the lasers? 2 cLPLs and an ER ML? 5 ER MLs? 3 IS LPLs? 6 cSPLs? 6 MPLs? All of these will be penalized under the new system.

But you are good with firing all the ACs all day then?

according to russ, even the ac's are accounted for under this system

[Chuck Jager]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

The consequences with a laser vomit are running extremely hot and not being able to sustain fire. The base heat is what you have to manage, any other bonus heat is a penalty.

But what's all the lasers? 2 cLPLs and an ER ML? 5 ER MLs? 3 IS LPLs? 6 cSPLs? 6 MPLs? All of these will be penalized under the new system.

But you are good with firing all the ACs all day then?

Pretty sure that he old heat values for cannons and gauss are going to get adjusted or have a harsher multiplier like the ultra 10 recently took. Think Russ made a "looking at adjusting values" for the low heat weapons as well as spread damage. By bypassing heat in the name they can do this to traditionally "heat" efficient weapons. Just do not expect all values from all weapons to mirror the original heat system except they all have GH.

Now what will really happen is ????????????????

[Gas Guzzler]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

according to russ, even the ac's are accounted for under this system

4 AC5s loadout gives zero ***** for the arbitrary 30 damage cap.

Let's exercise some critical thinking skills here people. We know that DPS weapons like U/AC5s have no problem shredding mechs without doing over 30 damage at a time, so even if they account for part of the 30 damage cap, its not going to have an effect on them. Want a little more poking ability? Take 2 PPCs and 2 UAC5s. Try it on a WHM-6R. Even in game now you will find yourself shredding the big scary "all teh lazors" mechs without an issue.

Chuck Jager, on 16 August 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Pretty sure that he old heat values for cannons and gauss are going to get adjusted or have a harsher multiplier like the ultra 10 recently took. Think Russ made a "looking at adjusting values" for the low heat weapons as well as spread damage. By bypassing heat in the name they can do this to traditionally "heat" efficient weapons. Just do not expect all values from all weapons to mirror the original heat system except they all have GH.

Now what will really happen is ????????????????

Oh look another prediction based on hopes and dreams.

The Ultra 10 just got "fixed" as in it had an incredibly low multiplier. But hey, 3 UAC10 will be penalty free under Energy Draw! Yay for the Night Gyr! Make sure you buy it!

AC5s don't have to worry about the 30 damage cap, unless you use 7 of them (no mech uses 7 of them )

He never suggested inflating the value of smaller ACs, he just said spread weapons like LBs and LRMs could possibly have a lower effective value.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 August 2016 - 08:39 AM.

[SmoothCriminal]

This all sounds complicated as f*ck. What happened to just lowering the heat cap and increasing dissipation?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

4 AC5s loadout gives zero ***** for the arbitrary 30 damage cap.

Let's exercise some critical thinking skills here people. We know that DPS weapons like U/AC5s have no problem shredding mechs without doing over 30 damage at a time, so even if they account for part of the 30 damage cap, its not going to have an effect on them. Want a little more poking ability? Take 2 PPCs and 2 UAC5s. Try it on a WHM-6R. Even in game now you will find yourself shredding the big scary "all teh lazors" mechs without an issue.

number 1 your making huge assumptions based on a small amount of information.

So What i believe is any weapon fired and and combination of weapons fired at that given time, if they exceed 30 base cap on the heat then you will be open to penalty, but how the new system will do it exactly we do not know.

Ballistics work on the same heat mechanic as energy weapons. You fire them, they increase the heat. From there we begin working on the possibilities .

He specifically stated that it wouldnt be damage alone, so your assumptions are going off of damage. I dont know how to contend when you are using a system that is definitely not gonna be in place

SmoothCriminal, on 16 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

This all sounds complicated as f*ck. What happened to just lowering the heat cap and increasing dissipation?

its not complicated as some are making it to be.

"the Starting Alpha Limit will be 30," according to andi, 30 i believe is whatever heat is being produced.

so a small laser has a heat of 3, so 10x small lasers would be 30. Thats what i believe he is talking about. Not the damage alone

[Gas Guzzler]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

He specifically stated that it wouldnt be damage alone, so your assumptions are going off of damage. I dont know how to contend when you are using a system that is definitely not gonna be in place

Since when is it not going to be about limiting damage? That has been specifically said before, with the possibility of some relief with spread weapons counting for less damage (this is the "not damage alone" part). Probably because they realized after someone pointed out on Twitter that LB10 10 damage isn't the same as AC10 10 damage. That doesn't mean they are accounting for DPS.

But if they DO start to add all sorts of random multipliers to weapon damage for different weapons, what you end up with is an extremely convoluted system that requires reference to a guide book in the mech lab to figure out what you can and can't fire together. Gets more and more complicated this way. Its better the way it is now.

[Chuck Jager]

SmoothCriminal, on 16 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

This all sounds complicated as f*ck. What happened to just lowering the heat cap and increasing dissipation?

Do not worry yet - We only have vague specifics, and yes there will be a shift in meta. We do not know if the shift will really help lower the ttk or just make pin point damage and weapon choices the new king.

Rest assured - this is only the tip of the salty iceberg. Remember what Darwin said about adapting.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Since when is it not going to be about limiting damage? That has been specifically said before, with the possibility of some relief with spread weapons counting for less damage (this is the "not damage alone" part). Probably because they realized after someone pointed out on Twitter that LB10 10 damage isn't the same as AC10 10 damage. That doesn't mean they are accounting for DPS.

But if they DO start to add all sorts of random multipliers to weapon damage for different weapons, what you end up with is an extremely convoluted system that requires reference to a guide book in the mech lab to figure out what you can and can't fire together. Gets more and more complicated this way. Its better the way it is now.

I think people will disagree with your ending statement, including me.

But the PTS is coming soon.

[Gas Guzzler]

Chuck Jager, on 16 August 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Do not worry yet - We only have vague specifics, and yes there will be a shift in meta. We do not know if the shift will really help lower the ttk or just make pin point damage and weapon choices the new king.

Rest assured - this is only the tip of the salty iceberg. Remember what Darwin said about adapting.

Its not about adapting, its about not wanting less variety on the field. None of the people complaining about energy draw are going to have any problem with adapting... you don't need to adapt when the current meta is made even more dominant than it already is..

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I think people will disagree with your ending statement, including me.

But the PTS is coming soon.

Yeah well, people need to learn that part of playing a thinking mans shooter is avoiding being an obvious target for 3+ mechs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I think people will disagree with your ending statement, including me.

If they are adding special rules and values (aka power draw aka ghost heat 2.0) to limit both DPS and alphas (something heat is supposed to do already) then yes, it is making a system unnecessarily complex and convoluted.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Its not about adapting, its about not wanting less variety on the field. None of the people complaining about energy draw are going to have any problem with adapting... you don't need to adapt when the current meta is made even more dominant than it already is..

The players that originally came up with the concept of energy draw did so because of the meta. Also ghost heat in a way did not do what it was supposed to do. I can do easy 3 PPC's with little effort and not worry about overheat.

Lets see how it is on the PTS before we down it

[SmoothCriminal]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

its not complicated as some are making it to be.

"the Starting Alpha Limit will be 30," according to andi, 30 i believe is whatever heat is being produced.

so a small laser has a heat of 3, so 10x small lasers would be 30. Thats what i believe he is talking about. Not the damage alone

Ok - but (and I realise these are assumptions and no one knows the finished product):

Damage will be adjusted for spread weapons
Damage will be adjusted for missiles
Damage will be adjusted for low heat DPS weapons like ACs
Damage will be adjusted for ultra weapons

So suddenly pretty complex...

[Gas Guzzler]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

The players that originally came up with the concept of energy draw did so because of the meta. Also ghost heat in a way did not do what it was supposed to do. I can do easy 3 PPC's with little effort and not worry about overheat.

Lets see how it is on the PTS before we down it

Maybe you are willing to incur a fat heat penalty, but I'm not unless I know I won't have to shoot for another 30+ seconds. But from what's been suggested, it sounds like 3 PPCs will be fair game with no heat penalty.

Also, you need to remember that that was when laser vomit WAS the meta. It isn't anymore. While still viable, in competitive setting it has taken the back burner to ER PPC Gauss, PPC/Dakka, and pure dakka.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

So my main problem with this power draw thing is this:

• If it limits just alphas, it is messing with the delicate balance between burst damage and dps oriented builds which right now is almost where it should be (with dakka being potentially too strong).
  
• If it limits both DPS and alphas, what makes it diffferent from just making heat more restricting, both in capacity and dissipation, which is honestly what should've happened before lasers got nerfed? Why do we need some extra rule set on top of an existing one when both do the same thing. I feel like PGI just never understood the purpose of heat in context of this game, the fact the Gauss Rifle (a heat neutral weapon) has been a problem with balance since day one should've told us this much.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 August 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[Kirkland Langue]

BLOOD WOLF, on 16 August 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

The players that originally came up with the concept of energy draw did so because of the meta. Also ghost heat in a way did not do what it was supposed to do. I can do easy 3 PPC's with little effort and not worry about overheat.

Lets see how it is on the PTS before we down it

supposedly, one of the goals of energy draw is specifically to allow 3 PPC builds that don't overheat your mech.

Personally, I think the amount of pinpoint accuracy is the biggest problem with the gameplay in MWO. I don't think that encouraging the increased use of pinpoint weapons is the best direction to go.... But since it is clear that Russ wants to do this - then I think that I'm on board with going for it.

I've said over and over again that Russ needs to pick a direction and go - try to take MWO somewhere. So I shouldn't complain too much when he actually does something.