376 replies to this topic

[Steve Pryde]

kapusta11, on 15 June 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ee6f47bcd230da4

Feelz teh dakka!!!111

[EvilCow]

Nothing changes, it will just make macros a bit more useful.

Group 1, 0.5s, group 2, 0.5s, group 3.

Magic.

[kapusta11]

EvilCow, on 15 June 2016 - 05:49 AM, said:

Nothing changes, it will just make macros a bit more useful.

Group 1, 0.5s, group 2, 0.5s, group 3.

Magic.

Well, it looks like there will be a "weapon load gauge" with a certain decay rate and cap instead of hard .5 sec delay like in case of a Ghost Heat hence the macro will look something like this:

Fire weapon group 1
Wait [(Weapon Group 2 Load - Gauge Cap + Weapon Group 1 Load) / Load Decay Rate] seconds
Fire weapon group 2

Edit: changed the formula because previous one contained pretty dumb mistake.

Edited by kapusta11, 15 June 2016 - 07:07 AM.

[EvilCow]

kapusta11, on 15 June 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Well, it looks like there will be a "weapon load gauge" with a certain decay rate and cap instead of hard .5 sec delay like in case of a Ghost Heat hence the macro will look something like this:

Fire weapon group 1
Wait [(Gauge Cap - Weapon Group 1 Load + Weapon Group 2 Load) / Load Decay Rate] seconds
Fire weapon group 2

Even better for those who uses macros, doing calculations for correct timings would be even harder for casual players.

[EGH]

Im stoked for the return of my 90kph flying trebuchet with 3ppcs in the same arm

[Malcolm Vordermark]

What are the chances they have spent all this time focusing on high alpha and completely forgot to account for DPS weapons?

[Lily from animove]

replacmeent for hetascale, and startign at 30?

so basically he makes heat capped at 30?

GJ, at making heat to repalce heat with the change we ask for 2 years or probably longer.

How about just makign ehta cap at 30 and done and see how it turns out, easy to adjust, easy to test

[Lorian Sunrider]

Kangarad, on 14 June 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

yes but what if it counts the 2x gauss as over the heatlimit because ive fired the mgs first/ at the same time? whats 1 point over heat limit in percentage anyway...?

The real thing tehre will be if I fire those low heat gauss and add some SRm with that, would each weapon count wiht the srm heat or with the gauss heat for ghost heat? since currently smaller weapons count as larger ones when it comes to ghost heat calculations, the gauss is bigger but the srm have more base heat ???

First off, how often are you firing machine guns at the same time as dual Gauss? I'm going to assume almost never.

Secondly, Gauss produces next to no heat, so the heat penalty will be negligible.

If you want to argue about 2 CERPPC's and Machine guns, sure, that makes a little more sense as those suckers are already hot as hell.

Lily from animove, on 15 June 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

replacmeent for hetascale, and startign at 30?

so basically he makes heat capped at 30?

GJ, at making heat to repalce heat with the change we ask for 2 years or probably longer.

How about just makign ehta cap at 30 and done and see how it turns out, easy to adjust, easy to test

Heat isn't capped at 30. Read more carefully. Alpha's are capped at 30 DAMAGE or there is a heat penalty.

Too quick to rush in and say GG

[Lily from animove]

Lorian Sunrider, on 15 June 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

First off, how often are you firing machine guns at the same time as dual Gauss? I'm going to assume almost never.

Secondly, Gauss produces next to no heat, so the heat penalty will be negligible.

If you want to argue about 2 CERPPC's and Machine guns, sure, that makes a little more sense as those suckers are already hot as hell.




Heat isn't capped at 30. Read more carefully. Alpha's are capped at 30 DAMAGE or there is a heat penalty.

Too quick to rush in and say GG

wow well in that case it's even worse.

capping alphas at 30 is still stupid and servers nothing 6 AC 5 are 30, 6c-UAC as well as 2 dual gauss or 5 CERML. that seriosuly just destroys more weapon balance than it improves. And why? because just compare their spreads and PP qualities. 3 CERLl won't work, because they acciently go 3 over the "damage" barrier. this sytsem is chosen extremely poorly and will extremely bias towards wepaons that cna scratch the "30" mark not even considering these wepaons dps, heat and tonnage investment. And all you get is a heat penalty? how much this will care the gauss spammers? none. The system is as broken as before just at other combinations biased and broken.

will clan ERRPPC's now be nerfed because they do theoretically 15 damage? while IS cna spam 3 at once? With this in mind its truly time for crosstech the system gimps more and more into niche min maxing where osme very obvious losers exist.
a volley of LRM 40 will be at penalty, but a 6xlrm5 not? LRM 20 si 5x the tonnage mroe spread and a laod of other stuff at disavantage, now lrm 20x2 woudl totally suck compared to 6xlrm5 that will squeeze out a lot more accuracy and dps without any heat penalty. Thsi system has so many flaws already its beyond belief. Just imagien it would already exist and play aroundhow you would build mechs now.

this choice is bad since it does not make sense and again, as too often wirth PGI enver took all things possible in sonsideration.

[Alistair Winter]

I'm still hoping for a system that doesn't require a ph.d. in theoretical physics to calculate the consequences of an alpha strike.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 June 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

Yeah. Instead of MLs, just a 4th LPL.

Yes, exactly.

Instead of 3x LPLs and 4 or 5 MLAS (which I've mostly moved away from).

I'll run 4x LPLs and fire them in pairs, which I'm already doing now - but honestly I might just shift to things like 3x PPCs, Ballistic boating & the 5x LLAS style builds that we use now by firing 3 then 2.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 June 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

From what Russ has Talked About you cant work around this like you can Ghost heat,

1) Russ doesn't play this game like we do.
2) You missed my point entirely, who cares if we can't "work around" it like Ghost Heat?

It's just as flawed.

7 MLAS @ 270m? PENALIZED.
Dual Gauss @ 600m? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY!

3x IS LPLs? PENALIZED.
3x IS PPCs? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY!

4x IS LLAS that only have 4.5 sustained DPS? PENALIZED.
2 AC 5 + 2 UAC 5 Build that has 9.8 DPS? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY!

4x LLAS? PENALIZED.
3x PPCs? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY.




These are just a few quick examples, off the top of my head.


This system is easily as flawed as ghost heat, short sighted in its goal because it is addressing a laser meta that is basically ended.

It will not significantly improve TTK, players will still die fast when they are bad. They will still die fast from sustained DPS pumped out by SRM builds and Ballistic boats (which are already prevalent).

[Navid A1]

I guess its ggclose for IS 3 LPL builds.


Yet my awesome 8Q agrees with this.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Ultimax, on 15 June 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

1) Russ doesn't play this game like we do.
2) You missed my point entirely, who cares if we can't "work around" it like Ghost Heat?

It's just as flawed.

7 MLAS @ 270m? PENALIZED.
Dual Gauss @ 600m? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY!

3x IS LPLs? PENALIZED.
3x IS PPCs? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY!

4x IS LLAS that only have 4.5 sustained DPS? PENALIZED.
2 AC 5 + 2 UAC 5 Build that has 9.8 DPS? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY!

4x LLAS? PENALIZED.
3x PPCs? NO PROBLEM, FIRE AWAY.




These are just a few quick examples, off the top of my head.


This system is easily as flawed as ghost heat, short sighted in its goal because it is addressing a laser meta that is basically ended.

It will not significantly improve TTK, players will still die fast when they are bad. They will still die fast from sustained DPS pumped out by SRM builds and Ballistic boats (which are already prevalent).

Ghost HEat 2,0, the new mole in this never ending game of Meta Wack a Mole. Then after another year when PPFLD and Autocannons become the it thing, PGI will try for Ghost Ammo consumption, or something goofy to try and combat the ballistic heavy builds and what not...

[kapusta11]

Ultimax, on 15 June 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

... he said that he likes paragraph spacing.

Hold your horses, I doubt PGI are that dumb not to account for weapon range and mechanic aside from damage itself. MLs and MPLs might have less weapon load or whatever it's called because they are short range weapons. And SRMs might have even less than that because of both range and missile spread.

Lets take LPLs for example. Since there will be some sort of a gauge with it's own decay rate and cap. Let's say 100% gauge is equal to something around 30 damage dealt with high precision mid range weapon (LPLs). Thus a single LPL would probably have 33% weapon load (gauge fill) value. The decay rate would probably be 200% per second or 30 damage every .5 sec, before cooldowns of course. That way 5 LPL Banshee or Battlemaster might actually be buffed as you'd be able to fire second group as soon as you get 66% "free" load or in other words .33 sec after you fired 3 LPLs instead of after .5 sec like we do now because of Ghost Heat.

This new weapon load mechanic might allow PGI to buff ER PPCs to say 2000mps and not worry about Gauss PPC loadouts for example or buff cER PPC to 12.5 FLD damage or even remove Gauss charge.

Until I see it I'll keep my expectations low, but there still might be a chance that it will bring something positive.

Edited by kapusta11, 15 June 2016 - 08:04 AM.

[Navid A1]

kapusta11, on 15 June 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

Hold your horses, I doubt PGI are that dumb not to account for weapon range and mechanic aside from damage itself....

.

You will be in for nasty surprise then!

[Lily from animove]

Alistair Winter, on 15 June 2016 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'm still hoping for a system that doesn't require a ph.d. in theoretical physics to calculate the consequences of an alpha strike.

Nah may just require you an excel warrior education.

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 June 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Ghost HEat 2,0, the new mole in this never ending game of Meta Wack a Mole. Then after another year when PPFLD and Autocannons become the it thing, PGI will try for Ghost Ammo consumption, or something goofy to try and combat the ballistic heavy builds and what not...

cool, sow e ran yearly from bandaid to bandaid instead of tryign to find a proper solution? This sounds just so awesome as a stripped and legged raven.

[ScarecrowES]

Realistically, any system that PGI should want to implement would try to push players away from boating many small weapons (like medium lasers) and push them toward loading up a few heavy weapons (large autocannons PPCs, etc). The problem, of course, is not the alpha, but how many light, small crit, low heat weapons players can mount.

In this regard, with many small weapons, you get the alpha without requiring the commitment of crits, weight, and heat to get it. With large weapons, you need to commit to more crits and weight spent, and often higher levels of heat. I doubt anyone complains that dual AC/20 is too powerful. But that's 2 weapons with a pinpoint 40-damage alpha. Noone complains because to get that 40-alpha you have to squeeze 2 massive autocannons into your mech, and the ammo to feed it.

Noone complains about massed SRMs. Because it requires a lot of crits, weight, and ammo to achieve. Like dual AC/20, that damage comes at a cost.

People complain about 6 massed MLs because there is no cost. Heat, crits, weight, etc is very favorable to damage and sustainability. You oy get a lot of output without the commitment.

You wanna fix "alphas" and TTK? Push people away from low-commitment weapons and towards high-commitment ones. Entice players into loading up heavy ACs and PPCs and your TTK and alphas will regulate themselves.

A power draw system will not do that. If anything, it will do the opposite. Many smaller weapons will still be easier to control to avoid heat penalties while maximizing output. Larger weapons are still riskier to use. The system does nothing to address the underlying issue. It merely slightly changes the conditions under which players get a penalty. It's little more than Ghost Heat 2.0... and this time it seems to be targetting loadouts noone actually has an issue with. You know... for reasons.

[Ultimax]

kapusta11, on 15 June 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

Hold your horses, I doubt PGI are that dumb not to account for weapon range and mechanic aside from damage itself. MLs and MPLs might have less weapon load or whatever it's called because they are short range weapons. And SRMs might have even less than that because of both range and missile spread.

Lets take LPLs for example. Since there will be some sort of a gauge with it's own decay rate and cap. Let's say 100% gauge is equal to something around 30 damage dealt with high precision mid range weapon (LPLs). Thus a single LPL would probably have 33% weapon load (gauge fill) value. The decay rate would probably be 200% per second or 30 damage every .5 sec, before cooldowns of course. That way 5 LPL Banshee or Battlemaster might actually be buffed as you'd be able to fire second group as soon as you get 66% "free" load or in other words .33 sec after you fired 3 LPLs instead of after .5 sec like we do now because of Ghost Heat.

This new weapon load mechanic might allow PGI to buff ER PPCs to say 2000mps and not worry about Gauss PPC loadouts for example or buff cER PPC to 12.5 FLD damage or even remove Gauss charge.

Until I see it I'll keep my expectations low, but there still might be a chance that it will bring something positive.

1) I admire your optimism, but here's what Russ has to say.





2) What you've described above, takes us right back to Ghost Heat, where it is not intuitive or quickly asses-able just how much extra heat you will generate for breaking penalty on weapon X, weapon Y and weapon Z - and what if you aren't boating and use Weapon X & Y together?

Guess what, PGI is going to penalize that too.


The threshold is 30, that's it. It doesn't care if you are boating MLAS, it doesn't care if you are firing Gauss + PPCs.


It's 30, with a modifier for spread weapons like LBX - that's all we have to go on.

[EAP10]

Reminder that this is going to be on the PTS first, so don't freak out

[L3mming2]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 June 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

Right now Nothing, but if Ballistics have No Draw Every Assault will be 4AC10 or 3AC20,

there is only 1 IS mech that can take 3 ac 10s (its a heavy btw) and no is mech that can take more then 2 ac20's...