376 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 14 June 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Ballistics shouldn't affected by a power draw system... at all... as bullets contain their own god damn propellant. The generate heat obviously but god damnit they shouldn't affect a power draw mechanic.

dont agree, Russ has Stated this isnt Energy draw, but Power(Alpha) Draw,
making Ballistic and Missile type weapons have 0 Draw will Encurage Ballistic & SRM Boating,
AC60 and SRM72 will Rule the Game, Hands down with no Real Counter,

Lorian Sunrider, on 14 June 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

I don't think spread weapons should get halved values towards the 30 cap. Otherwise SRM mechs can now fire 7 (6.97 something really) SRM 4's with no heat penalty. Oxides/Jenner IIC's/Streakcrows/Huntsmen (premature maybe) don't need to get any stronger on the SRM front.

i think 75% would better than Half,
i wasnt asking Russ what where the Exact Numbers , but is some Weapon Systems will have reduced Draw,

GreyNovember, on 14 June 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

> Missile Power Draw Value = 0
> Ballistic Power Draw Value = 0
> If Weapon Type == Type.Gauss > Weapon Draw Value = X
> Energy Power Draw Value = X

Did I miss something?

Russ Stated it will be based off Total Alpha, not just Energy Alpha,

Kangarad, on 14 June 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

wait, does this mean that MG's will also generate heat ? do I have to stop firing em for a second if I hit soemone with a dual gauss shot unless I want to take heat? And if so how much heat would that be since mg's have a realy high firerate but low damage.
And does critical damage count?

Im assuming as Russ has Stated some Weapons will have reduced Draw,
so its very Likely that Flamers and MGs will have no Draw as they have their Own Balance Mechanics,
1) Flamers having the heat over time index, and little to no Damage,
2) MGs having Low Damage and High Rate of Fire(they also have 0 Heat),

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 June 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

dont agree, Russ has Stated this isnt Energy draw, but Power(Alpha) Draw,
making Ballistic and Missile type weapons have 0 Draw will Encurage Ballistic & SRM Boating,
AC60 and SRM72 will Rule the Game, Hands down with no Real Counter,

That's why my original power draw proposals were always paired with a recoil+movement+effects from enemy weapons fire+heat penalties based Cone of Fire like system

But at least it looks like you'll be happy with ghost heat still. So there is that.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Kangarad, on 14 June 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

wait, does this mean that MG's will also generate heat ? do I have to stop firing em for a second if I hit soemone with a dual gauss shot unless I want to take heat? And if so how much heat would that be since mg's have a realy high firerate but low damage.
And does critical damage count?

0 heat times a multiplier penalty of ANYTHING still equals 0 lol

[Lorian Sunrider]

https://twitter.com/...4206848?lang=en

I claim this as my victory, as I tweeted asking him when the next town hall would be and then 15 minutes later...

[Mole]

I'm calling it right now and saying that Ghost Heat 2.0 is gonna suck even more than Ghost Heat 1.0.

[Vanguard319]

Still think CoF is a bad idea?

[Steve Pryde]

Sounds for me like more big weapons, less smaller weapons (like medium laser boating for example).

Hm...

Btw what's with clan er-ppcs? So no 3 clan er-ppcs like IS because of the useless splash-dmg it does?

Edited by Steve Pryde, 14 June 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Kangarad]

Lorian Sunrider, on 14 June 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

0 heat times a multiplier penalty of ANYTHING still equals 0 lol

yes but what if it counts the 2x gauss as over the heatlimit because ive fired the mgs first/ at the same time? whats 1 point over heat limit in percentage anyway...?

The real thing tehre will be if I fire those low heat gauss and add some SRm with that, would each weapon count wiht the srm heat or with the gauss heat for ghost heat? since currently smaller weapons count as larger ones when it comes to ghost heat calculations, the gauss is bigger but the srm have more base heat ???

[GreyNovember]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 June 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

AC60 and SRM72 will Rule the Game, Hands down with no Real Counter,

I didn't realize the 270m effective range with a heavy ballistic and spread rockets was so difficult to counter.

[cazidin]

GreyNovember, on 14 June 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

I didn't realize the 270m effective range with a heavy ballistic and spread rockets was so difficult to counter.

...What mech can effectively field AC60? AC 20s are both heavy AND bulky.

[oldradagast]

Meh. How will it affect Gauss, that nearly 0-heat and rather highly effective weapon for long range damage? Will it just make up a whole pile of nonsensical heat out of nowhere to limit it?

At least they recognize that spread weapons rarely deal their full damage to anything by giving them a modifier.

Still, barring massive testing, it looks like dual Gauss or triple PPC will be the new meta for peeking at range. I guess boated autocannons will be the winner for mid-range work (since they don't even hit the alpha damage limit.) Lasers will stink since there's no good combination to get to almost 30 without exceeding it, unless the Ghost Heat 2.0 drawback isn't too bad. So, meh.

Vanguard319, on 14 June 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Still think CoF is a bad idea?

So true. Remember, we're to believe that firing your weapons and not hitting the exact pixel you aim at in a first person shooter in a bad thing, but somehow not being able to fire your weapons at all without immersion-breaking penalties is Ok. Ugh.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 June 2016 - 05:01 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

So... effectively we know nothing whatsoever, thus leaving everyone with an interest to speculate and inject their own personal spin on what might come to pass. And of course, since there's no info at all to countermand anything a person is likely to speculate, we can really run wild on speculation.

Here's the thing... adding a heat penalty to an excessive simultaneous damage burst doesn't require server resources to handle. That can all be done client side.

One thing we know for sure is that whatever idea PGI had for their power draw system required so much resources from the servers that hit registration would tank and the game would be unplayable. That sounds NOTHING like any of the ideas being put forth in this or any other thread related to power draw. If we seek to understand what PGI is planning with this system, we have to try to figure out exactly what sort of system would require THAT level of interaction with the server to make happen. Because nothing players have talked up would require that.

And then you have to ask yourself... is any system that would have required that much interaction with the server to work, and now would need a massive coding workaround to make happen... is that a system we would actually WANT? It sounds awfully convoluted to me.

[Ultimax]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 June 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Test(1)
5MPL fired, 30damage in 0-0.5sec, no penalty heat(20Heat Total)

Test(2)
6MPL fired, 36damage in 0-0.5sec, +6(30ish%) penalty heat(30Heat Total)

Test(3)
7MPL fired, 42damage in 0-0.5sec, +33(120ish%) penalty heat(61Heat Total)

Great write up.


Look at those numbers, think about how frequently MPLs are actually used right now - and can anyone honestly that it makes any sense at all?

Yes, clearly, using a 220m limited range weapon that quickly hits a heat wall should see you limited to only using 5 of them fo "balance".

[Gas Guzzler]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 June 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

dont agree, Russ has Stated this isnt Energy draw, but Power(Alpha) Draw,
making Ballistic and Missile type weapons have 0 Draw will Encurage Ballistic & SRM Boating,

Oh you don't want to encourage ballistic boating?

Say NO to Power Draw.

[Garfuncle]

Rough eta of when we will see this system implemented?

[EgoSlayer]

ScarecrowES, on 14 June 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

So... effectively we know nothing whatsoever, thus leaving everyone with an interest to speculate and inject their own personal spin on what might come to pass. And of course, since there's no info at all to countermand anything a person is likely to speculate, we can really run wild on speculation.

Here's the thing... adding a heat penalty to an excessive simultaneous damage burst doesn't require server resources to handle. That can all be done client side.

One thing we know for sure is that whatever idea PGI had for their power draw system required so much resources from the servers that hit registration would tank and the game would be unplayable. That sounds NOTHING like any of the ideas being put forth in this or any other thread related to power draw. If we seek to understand what PGI is planning with this system, we have to try to figure out exactly what sort of system would require THAT level of interaction with the server to make happen. Because nothing players have talked up would require that.

And then you have to ask yourself... is any system that would have required that much interaction with the server to work, and now would need a massive coding workaround to make happen... is that a system we would actually WANT? It sounds awfully convoluted to me.

We know the key facts listed in the OP - It's damaged based and all weapons count. It's Ghost heat 2.0, just that all weapons count just not a specific number of same/similar weapons. If the target is 30 damage then 2 Gauss plus 1 PPC would be 10 points over, as would 2 Gauss plus 1 LPL would be 11 points over, but 3 LPLs would be only 3 points over. The weapon doesn't matter, it's the damage.

Although, and it's hinted at in the twitter thread, not all weapons are necessary going to be 1 for 1 on their damage to the new scale. E.g. 2 LRM 20's would probably be fine since they spread and almost never do full damage.

And it has to be tracked server side otherwise client side hacks get to ignore any limits/thresholds.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimax, on 14 June 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

Great write up.


Look at those numbers, think about how frequently MPLs are actually used right now - and can anyone honestly that it makes any sense at all?

Yes, clearly, using a 220m limited range weapon that quickly hits a heat wall should see you limited to only using 5 of them fo "balance".

SO good in a brawl.

Oh wait, SRMs are the brawling meta, MPLs are never used, but are still somehow OP, because lasers OP.

Garfuncle, on 14 June 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

Rough eta of when we will see this system implemented?

Probably a few months at least.

[Mazzyplz]

wow. well

i think this proves PGI listens. only it takes its sweet time!

i proposed exactly this mechanic months ago.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4771078



they also listened to me and included coolshots in the game way back then... (it coulda easily been very bad for the game too..)

i think this makes it 3 times they listen so kudos to pgi.

although i set the bar at 40 dmg not 30 in my post way back then

[ScarecrowES]

EgoSlayer, on 14 June 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

We know the key facts listed in the OP - It's damaged based and all weapons count. It's Ghost heat 2.0, just that all weapons count just not a specific number of same/similar weapons. If the target is 30 damage then 2 Gauss plus 1 PPC would be 10 points over, as would 2 Gauss plus 1 LPL would be 11 points over, but 3 LPLs would be only 3 points over. The weapon doesn't matter, it's the damage.

Although, and it's hinted at in the twitter thread, not all weapons are necessary going to be 1 for 1 on their damage to the new scale. E.g. 2 LRM 20's would probably be fine since they spread and almost never do full damage.

And it has to be tracked server side otherwise client side hacks get to ignore any limits/thresholds.

I'd like to point out that what we "know" is based a lot around some very wishy-washy Tweets by Russ and a LOT of back-peddling over the last few months over what the scope of the system is. None of the listed items the OP linked are definitive... hence the specific language Russ is using.

What we DO know, is that their system was not workable, according to the engineers, and borked hit registration so bad the game was unplayable. And now engineering has come up with a workaround. Is that reassuring? A workaround to a system that destroyed hit registration? For a bit of gameplay which is another glorified ghost heat system?

Gas Guzzler, on 14 June 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

SO good in a brawl.

Oh wait, SRMs are the brawling meta, MPLs are never used, but are still somehow OP, because lasers OP.

We might actually see lasers used more often if ghost heat 2.0 makes it so you can't throw out more than 15 SRM tubes at a time. Sounds like a pretty significant nerf to SRMs to me.

Oh... and might as well rename MechWarrior Online to MacroWarrior Online. If all it takes to get around ghost heat 2.0 is to only fire 30 damage at a time with a 0.5-second gap between volleys, expect macro usage to go up. If anything, this actually seems MUCH easier to get around than basic Ghost Heat is. At least with the current ghost heat setup, you actually have to consider what kinds of weapons you want to fire, how many you can salvo before GH kicks in, which weapon will determine your penalty, etc. I figure it'd be a lot easier to control salvos when you can fire any weapon you want in a group as long as it doesn't exceed X amount of damage.

And as for limiting laser vomit? I don't see that happening. This doesn't seem to do much to curb a 12-laser Nova. Much less any other vomit build. The GH limit for lasers is also the reasonable limit for simultaneous laser fire if you hope to remain cool enough to keep in the fight. Not many people would spam more than 6MLs even if GH didn't penalize them for doing so.

[EgoSlayer]

ScarecrowES, on 14 June 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

I'd like to point out that what we "know" is based a lot around some very wishy-washy Tweets by Russ and a LOT of back-peddling over the last few months over what the scope of the system is. None of the listed items the OP linked are definitive... hence the specific language Russ is using.

What we DO know, is that their system was not workable, according to the engineers, and borked hit registration so bad the game was unplayable. And now engineering has come up with a workaround. Is that reassuring? A workaround to a system that destroyed hit registration? For a bit of gameplay which is another glorified ghost heat system?

There isn't anything Russ has said that is wishy-washy about the key facts - It's damaged based and all weapons count to the limit. That much is solid. It's Ghost heat 2.0, that's it.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 14 June 2016 - 06:09 PM.