425 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

A heat scale rework sounds fine to me. We are getting a power system put in place eventually that may help supplement heat and add some of those firing limitations back. Really only time will tell.

I'm less enthusiastic about any type of CoF. I understand that it can help in many ways, but at the same time, I'm kind of stubborn and hardwired in a way that I want to hit what I aim at . Maybe if the CoF was very minimal, but at the same time if it was, it probably wouldn't have the desired effect.

For me to embrace any sort of CoF for MWO, I think I would just have to try it in MWO first. Still, I would be more open to a heat scale revamp and also the new power draw system.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

I prefer to work with elements of what we have than do a Blasterman and what if the perfect world. We already HAVE CoF no matter what BS they feed us, cuz "Machine Guns" thus it's not adding or coding anything new (though I would certainly prefer a lot more refinement than the MG CoF)

Changing their entire business model, no matter how John Lennon "Imagine" Ideal.... is even less likely to happen than Russ admitting pinpoint accurate aim for multiweapons is at the heart of most of this game's balance issues.

Here's the thing. I am 100% certain that machine guns do not fire projectiles (since Piranha has admitted they do not), and I am almost equally certain they also do not have any sort of hitscan line, a'la lasers. Machine guns 'fire' a cone of hit detection and randomly dice-rolls a component within that cone to hit if there's anything to hit. A solution which everyone points to and goes "See?! SEE?! You can totally do Cone of Failure in MWO!" without remembering that machine guns, just like the automatic rifles of modern shooter games, fire a sh!t-ton of rounds per second and thus are able to saturate a target area with fire and hit something even with unrealistically wide deviation.

How many rounds per second does your Lunchback's AC/20 fire, Bish? How 'bout them medium lasers? You want machine gun-style randomized hit-cones with no ability whatsoever to aim your weapon when you can only fire that weapon once every five seconds, not ten times a second?

Another point: machine guns are hot garbage. Do you really want to point to what is inarguably, unquestionably, without any doubt in anyone's mind the WORST weapon in all of (current) MechWarrior Online and say "Yep. This is what we need to emulate if we want game balance"? Is that really a thing you want to do?

Edited by 1453 R, 15 June 2016 - 07:24 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 15 June 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Here's the thing. I am 100% certain that machine guns do not fire projectiles (since Piranha has admitted they do not), and I am almost equally certain they also do not have any sort of hitscan line, a'la lasers. Machine guns 'fire' a cone of hit detection and randomly dice-rolls a component within that cone to hit if there's anything to hit. A solution which everyone points to and goes "See?! SEE?! You can totally do Cone of Failure in MWO!" without remembering that machine guns, just like the automatic rifles of modern shooter games, fire a sh!t-ton of rounds per second and thus are able to saturate a target area with fire and hit something even with unrealistically wide deviation.

How many rounds per second does your Lunchback's AC/20 fire, Bish? How 'bout them medium lasers?

Another point: machine guns are hot garbage. Do you really want to point to what is inarguably, unquestionably, without any doubt in anyone's mind the WORST weapon in all of (current) MechWarrior Online and say "Yep. This is what we need to emulate if we want game balance"? Is that really a thing you want to do?

Yes, and the reason they are hot garbage is strictly the CoF?

Oh.... no, no it's not. It's the pathetic dmg, and insistence that "crits" somehow matter. If one recalls there was a time MGs were very effective, and the Ember was a little beast with them.

The other knock on MGs is how extreme their CoF is, especially considering their range. So when you add in laughable damage AND a wide as a house CoF, yes, it's garbage.


Neither of which apply to this conversation.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 June 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Yes, and the reason they are hot garbage is strictly the CoF?

Oh.... no, no it's not. It's the pathetic dmg, and insistence that "crits" somehow matter. If one recalls there was a time MGs were very effective, and the Ember was a little beast with them.

The other knock on MGs is how extreme their CoF is, especially considering their range. So when you add in laughable damage AND a wide as a house CoF, yes, it's garbage.


Neither of which apply to this conversation.

Missing. The. POINT.

Do you want your once-every-four-seconds AC/20 firing in that same Cone of Failure? No other weapon in MWO conforms to the machine gun's rate of fire - everything else we have is multiple seconds per shot with the exception of the AC/2, which is also hot garbage. WHY does no one else understand that you can not have a system where your gameful of bolt-action rifles have unavoidable 30-degree MoA deviation?! That sort of thing only works with automatic weapons in other games because you can EMPTY THE MAGAZINE at a bolt-action guy before he can get his second or third shot off!

You just can't DO that sort of thing in a game where every weapon is specifically intended to be a deliberate, carefully-aimed tool instead of a spray-and-pray SMG!

[MeiSooHaityu]

1453 R, on 15 June 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

Missing. The. POINT.

Do you want your once-every-four-seconds AC/20 firing in that same Cone of Failure? No other weapon in MWO conforms to the machine gun's rate of fire - everything else we have is multiple seconds per shot with the exception of the AC/2, which is also hot garbage. WHY does no one else understand that you can not have a system where your gameful of bolt-action rifles have unavoidable 30-degree MoA deviation?! That sort of thing only works with automatic weapons in other games because you can EMPTY THE MAGAZINE at a bolt-action guy before he can get his second or third shot off!

You just can't DO that sort of thing in a game where every weapon is specifically intended to be a deliberate, carefully-aimed tool instead of a spray-and-pray SMG!

And this makes up a portion of my concern for an CoF system in MWO.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 15 June 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

Missing. The. POINT.

Do you want your once-every-four-seconds AC/20 firing in that same Cone of Failure? No other weapon in MWO conforms to the machine gun's rate of fire - everything else we have is multiple seconds per shot with the exception of the AC/2, which is also hot garbage. WHY does no one else understand that you can not have a system where your gameful of bolt-action rifles have unavoidable 30-degree MoA deviation?! That sort of thing only works with automatic weapons in other games because you can EMPTY THE MAGAZINE at a bolt-action guy before he can get his second or third shot off!

You just can't DO that sort of thing in a game where every weapon is specifically intended to be a deliberate, carefully-aimed tool instead of a spray-and-pray SMG!

Actually, I hit your points, and yet you keep insisting on positing some worst case uber extreme scenario while ignoring my points. And actually, pretty sure WoWs, WoT do exactly that with single shot weapons. And that unless one goes into "sniper mode" with those bolt action rifles, you still have sway, and other effects.

[Cy Mitchell]

There is a lot of complaining that PGI does not listen to the community. This thread is a perfect example of the conundrum they are faced with when trying to do what the community wants. While most (but not all) seem to agree that TTK needs to be longer there are many trains of thought about how to accomplish that. No matter what PGI does there will be a faction or even multiple factions that will complain that they did it wrong and that they never listen because it was not their solution that was adopted and implemented by PGI.

That is why I find myself sympathetic towards PGI when it comes to them trying to satisfy the MWO community.

Edited by Rampage, 15 June 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 June 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

And this makes up a portion of my concern for an CoF system in MWO.

and I hope you don't play any other shooter beside MWO then my friend.

Rampage, on 15 June 2016 - 07:43 AM, said:

There is a lot of complaining that PGI does not listen to the community. This thread is a perfect example of the conundrum they are faced with when trying to do what the community wants. While most (but not all) seem to agree that TTK needs to be longer there is many trains of thought about how to accomplish that. No matter what PGI does there will be a faction or even multiple factions that will complain that they did it wrong and that they never listen because it was not their solution that was adopted and implemented by PGI.

That is why I find myself sympathetic towards PGI when it comes to them trying to satisfy the MWO community.

While true, not really germane to this convo, ya know? (We got plenty of PGI rage threads that this convo amongst others could be case studies for, though!)

End of the day though , the issue with PGI in this regard is they have never really had a firm plan of their own that they stuck to. They had a mission statement in CB, about what this game was to be, and have pretty well deviated from that in all elements, and then seem uncertain or unwilling to make a strong stand for any one specific direction since.... and thus are floundering in a see of confusion and compromise... but the community didn't make that sea, PGI did. Yes choosing any one direction will upset a portion of the playerbase.... not choosing upsets a much larger portion.

Just my 2ct

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 June 2016 - 07:46 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 June 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

and I hope you don't play any other shooter beside MWO then my friend.


While true, not really germane to this convo, ya know? (We got plenty of PGI rage threads that this convo amongst others could be case studies for, though!)

End of the day though , the issue with PGI in this regard is they have never really had a firm plan of their own that they stuck to. They had a mission statement in CB, about what this game was to be, and have pretty well deviated from that in all elements, and then seem uncertain or unwilling to make a strong stand for any one specific direction since.... and thus are floundering in a see of confusion and compromise... but the community didn't make that sea, PGI did. Yes choosing any one direction will upset a portion of the playerbase.... not choosing upsets a much larger portion.

Just my 2ct

I was not trying to single out this thread as a problem, just use it as a example. Almost every "fix" threads mirror what is going on here except this one has stayed relatively civil in comparison.

I agree that PGI should have a stronger vision of the end goals for this game. They are trying to appeal to too large of an audience who all have their own wants and desires for how the game should play. Their biggest problem seems to be a lack of direction which leaves the player base confused and frustrated.

OK, back on topic. Lets just convince them to use convergence with a lock or at optimal range and reticle bounce.

[Bud Crue]

Not sure if mentioned above, but reading the last dozen or so posts it occurs to me that unless there are successful "e-sports" games that have a "cone of fire" then it is unlikely that we would ever get such a solution to low TTK in this game.

Are there such games? I honestly have no clue. But If one exists, and it has goodie crates then that would be the one to point to as having a mechanism that PGI might be willing to incorporate into this game.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 June 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

and I hope you don't play any other shooter beside MWO then my friend.

I do. It's not quite the same though Bish.

Other shooters weapons have some CoF, but they also have a higher RoF to go with it as well. Missed shots due to sway have less effect when I can put a grouping or stream of rounds down range. I also generally have a decent amount of ammo and with most shooters, can pick up another rifle lying around once I'm out of ammo.

In MWO, other than a Clan A/C, ballistics don't fire bursts of rounds with a high rate of fire like that. I also don't have a lot of rounds to burn or can pick up a new auto cannon or ammo when ammo is depleted.

In MWO, if I make a huge investment to carry an A/C20, I can't afford random off shots. The weapon is heavy, it takes a ton of crit slots (so I'm either running STD engine or no lower arm actuators), and at best, can normally allocate up 21~24 rounds of ammo. That's not even mentioning a long cool down. If after all that, I may miss what I'm aiming at on a regular Basis, why equip it? I'm better sticking with laser vomit. Some of the beam's duration will hit and I won't be wasting ammo on RNG misses.

I mean, even now with the way it is I cringe when I waste a valuable round of ammo, but I know it is my fault. I don't know if I want random chance burning ammo for me too.

Like I said, CoF is a concern for me because I don't know if it will really work quite right.

Like I also said, I'd be at least willing to try it, but I'm really not sold on the idea with MWO.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 15 June 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Metus regem]

Bud Crue, on 15 June 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Not sure if mentioned above, but reading the last dozen or so posts it occurs to me that unless there are successful "e-sports" games that have a "cone of fire" then it is unlikely that we would ever get such a solution to low TTK in this game.

Are there such games? I honestly have no clue. But If one exists, and it has goodie crates then that would be the one to point to as having a mechanism that PGI might be willing to incorporate into this game.

Counter Strike seems to have deviation between shots in the form of bullet spread, once could call that a cone of fire, as well as representation in M.L.G., so I think that should cover your question.

[Mycrus]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

TLDR; In Battletech aiming was actually supposed to be hard, and your heatscale was supposed to matter.

how about at least they remove arm lock or at least make it a toggle only out of battle...

http://www.examiner....geting-reticles

once upon a time the two reticule system was touted as a 'feature'...

[Metus regem]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 June 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

I do. It's not quite the same though Bish.

Other shooters weapons have some CoF, but they also have a higher RoF to go with it as well. Missed shots due to sway have less effect when I can put a grouping or stream of rounds down range. I also generally have a decent amount of ammo and with most shooters, can pick up another rifle lying around once I'm out of ammo.

In MWO, other than a Clan A/C, ballistics don't fire bursts of rounds with a high rate of fire like that. I also don't have a lot of rounds to burn or can pick up a new auto cannon or ammo when ammo is depleted.

In MWO, if I make a huge investment to carry an A/C20, I can't afford random off shots. The weapon is heavy, it takes a ton of crit slots (so I'm either running STD engine or no lower arm actuators), and at best, can normally allocate up 21~24 rounds of ammo. That's not even mentioning a long cool down. If after all that, I may miss what I'm aiming at on a regular Basis, why equip it? I'm better sticking with laser vomit. Some of the beam's duration will hit and I won't be wasting ammo on RNG misses.

I mean, even now with the way it is I cringe when I waste a valuable round of ammo, but I know it is my fault. I don't know if I want random chance burning ammo for me too.

Like I said, CoF is a concern for me because I don't know if it will really work quite right.

Like I also said, I'd be at least willing to try it, but I'm really not sold on the idea with MWO.

Try a BB in WoWS, they have slow firing guns (once every 30 seconds) and work with in a deviation with in a set area. the area that they hit can be larger or smaller depending if you do one turret at a time or a full broadside.... I've found that sequential fire is better in most cases, unless I got someone trying to trade paint with me.

[Nerdboard]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

You want to "fix" TTK? "Skill" folk need to get over their revulsion to limited situational CoF mechanics, and we need a revamped heatscale and affects ( and BTW, we HAD heat that affected targeting in early CB, as well as ammo cookoffs. I don't recall if we had movement affected or not though, been 4 years)

TLDR; In Battletech aiming was actually supposed to be hard, and your heatscale was supposed to matter.

I actually agree with this and would not mind a tiny bit more random component with aim/hitting targets. Many people however hate anything that is or feels random even the slightest bit.
It'd be cool if they do something about this in the future. For now I'd just be happy if they stop the insane hardpoint inflation and some more quick balancing decisions instead of one half-assed requirking (which doesnt actually reduce alphas anyway) every 6 months...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Metus regem, on 15 June 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Try a BB in WoWS, they have slow firing guns (once every 30 seconds) and work with in a deviation with in a set area. the area that they hit can be larger or smaller depending if you do one turret at a time or a full broadside.... I've found that sequential fire is better in most cases, unless I got someone trying to trade paint with me.

It sounds like an interesting way to limit Alphas in that game. I get that.

I'm just wondering if the possible energy draw system bwing developed for MWO might accomplish the same sort of thing and yet still allow you the usual control over your aim.

[Mystere]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 14 June 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

All a CoF does to Mechwarrior is turn it into a slow paced game of camping peekaboo.

That doesn't really sound like a good thing.

The French did something similar by building the Maginot Line. But we all know what happened to that.

[Lily from animove]

The problem is the ROF and increased heat scale, trying to blame anything else is trying to hide the core problem. and thus will only and always lead to band aid fixes.

[Mystere]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 June 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

A heat scale rework sounds fine to me. We are getting a power system put in place eventually that may help supplement heat and add some of those firing limitations back. Really only time will tell.

I'm less enthusiastic about any type of CoF. I understand that it can help in many ways, but at the same time, I'm kind of stubborn and hardwired in a way that I want to hit what I aim at . Maybe if the CoF was very minimal, but at the same time if it was, it probably wouldn't have the desired effect.

For me to embrace any sort of CoF for MWO, I think I would just have to try it in MWO first. Still, I would be more open to a heat scale revamp and also the new power draw system.

Well, fixed convergence -- or any form of non-automatic convergence for that matter -- will still allow you to hit where you aim. You just might have to do it for each weapon or weapon cluster though.

[WarHippy]

Not a fan of straight up random CoF mechanics, but I would be ok with a convergence mechanic of some sort.

That being said the only CoF mechanic I would be ok with was one that still provides some control for the pilot depending on how many weapons they are firing. For example when firing a single weapon there would be no cone and it would be pin point accurate, but as you add additional weapons you get a gradual increase in spread. An alpha strike at long range is not going to be very effective but still dangerous at shorter ranges. In a system like that you could have mods and mech skill tree that decrease the cone some(looking at you pinpoint), and things like the command console could be used to give an area buff to your team that helps decrease the cone as well. Something like that would be a lot more interesting and enjoyable than a straight up CoF mechanic.