425 replies to this topic

[SteamCharts Kerensky]

Johnny Z, on 17 June 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

I fully expect when all is said and done MechWarrior Online will be the most hated game ever by the cheating brigade.

Moderatepudding loved this game.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

I've watched a lot of the MRBC and have watched a lot of the World Championship games leading up to the actual quarter finals and such. There are a lot of teams in the qualifying games that have no real business being there, which we all expected. But, there isn't a lot of excitement watching two "poke" teams sitting across Canyon Network hitting each other with Large Lasers. The only time it gets exciting is when it is a brawl match and the skill you see there is choosing where and when to brawl, the approach vector you take to your targets, and the easy but seemingly extremely difficult task of focus firing on called targets - the qualifying matches have SCREAMED how bad people are about focusing.

I think that MW:O could use some semblance of sim that wouldn't ruin the esport aspect. Yes, esports are an ADD/ADHD type of thing. Yet, people watch Hearthstone which boils down to the same 6-7 decks and the skill is limited to really only trying to figure out how you're going to manage the game given the RNG aspect of what cards you get when. The regional stuff is something like 3-4 global regions witch each taking 3-4 days to complete at 6-ish hours a day. How would slowing combat down just a little be bad when Hearthstone is mind numblingly boring just watching people play Bridge with minions/spells? Btw, that question isn't inflammatory but an actual honest question.

the fact that people would actually watch other people play hearthstone..... indicates that maybe it's time for a mass extinction and to let the cockroaches take over.

[Johnny Z]

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

I've watched a lot of the MRBC and have watched a lot of the World Championship games leading up to the actual quarter finals and such. There are a lot of teams in the qualifying games that have no real business being there, which we all expected. But, there isn't a lot of excitement watching two "poke" teams sitting across Canyon Network hitting each other with Large Lasers. The only time it gets exciting is when it is a brawl match and the skill you see there is choosing where and when to brawl, the approach vector you take to your targets, and the easy but seemingly extremely difficult task of focus firing on called targets - the qualifying matches have SCREAMED how bad people are about focusing.

I think that MW:O could use some semblance of sim that wouldn't ruin the esport aspect. Yes, esports are an ADD/ADHD type of thing. Yet, people watch Hearthstone which boils down to the same 6-7 decks and the skill is limited to really only trying to figure out how you're going to manage the game given the RNG aspect of what cards you get when. The regional stuff is something like 3-4 global regions witch each taking 3-4 days to complete at 6-ish hours a day. How would slowing combat down just a little be bad when Hearthstone is mind numblingly boring just watching people play Bridge with minions/spells? Btw, that question isn't inflammatory but an actual honest question.

This is right. World of Warships proves even glacial game play is fun for a while and not bad to watch. In fact WOW isn't bad except lacking potential and cool space stuff. +1 for Aerotech.

SteamCharts Kerensky, on 17 June 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Moderatepudding loved this game.

As far as I know he/she is gone. The one I just complained about today is known on these forums and is probly gone to.

This game is really easy to spot cheats.

I feel sorry for cheats but they are trying to sink one of the only potentially awesome online games available. So, cya, wouldn't want to be ya.

By the way, the one I complained about. I put down first. Wasn't a win though.

In another game if I face cheats I usually am really rude and swear like a sailor in the heat of the moment before complaining. They say to me I will get banned for it, and I say back that if they ban a legit because of a cheat is a mistake. Seen tons banned and not me yet. My top rank in that game is only half special because so many get banned on the way to the top....

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 June 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 17 June 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

This is right. World of Warships proves even glacial game play is fun for a while and not bad to watch. In fact WOW isn't bad except lacking potential and cool space stuff. +1 for Aerotech.

WoWs is actually a great game, in mechanics, that just needs more content, peripherals, etc. TTK may be longer than most Esports, but the actual game play is anything but glacial once engaged, in my limited experience. Especially as a Destroyer or Cruiser skipper.

[SteamCharts Kerensky]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 June 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

the fact that people would actually watch other people play hearthstone..... indicates that maybe it's time for a mass extinction and to let the cockroaches take over.

Hearthstone is badass. I like playing as the Shaman.

[Johnny Z]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 June 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

WoWs is actually a great game, in mechanics, that just needs more content, peripherals, etc. TTK may be longer than most Esports, but the actual game play is anything but glacial once engaged, in my limited experience. Especially as a Destroyer or Cruiser skipper.

Yep it would be great if Aerotech was like that to a degree but with first person bridge idealy.

Main guns aimable by player and torpedos and ai secondaries. With Auto pilot navigation options. Even ai primaries while player pilots would be great.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 June 2016 - 08:08 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 17 June 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

Yep it would be great if Aerotech was like that to a degree but with first person bridge idealy.

well, and with the addition of players able to choose to pilot individual fighters, too. Not everyone want's to skipper capitol ships.

[Johnny Z]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 June 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

well, and with the addition of players able to choose to pilot individual fighters, too. Not everyone want's to skipper capitol ships.

Yep. It would be great. Maybe static Dropships for fighters to have launched from on or off the map a bit. Maybe even player dropships. I want a cruiser class though. Or corvette class.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 June 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

How would slowing combat down just a little be bad when Hearthstone is mind numblingly boring just watching people play Bridge with minions/spells?

That's a bad comparison, each turn is generally fast in Hearthstone, compare that to Magic which has to deal with the fact it has instants and how long a single turn can be. It is also easier to watch because you don't need to have a keen eye to keep up with how that game is being played, it is different from FPS's in that regard.

[Trauglodyte]

The point is, if people are willing to watch other folks play cards, then adding time to TTK shouldn't really be an impact. I'm not talking about you stopping, aiming at a target that is also not moving, and then firing only to have your weapons veer off to another location entirely. I'm simply saying that 1) if you don't have sensor information on a target, thus not having direction or speed information, your ability to aim OR do damage shouldn't be stellar, 2) if you're literally boiling your pilot alive because you're running that hot, yous shouldn't be able to operate, let alone aim, very well, and 3) if you're moving at flank speed, your ability to aim shouldn't be 100%. Adding some level of real life into the game isn't a bad thing as long as it isn't World of Tanks stupid.

For the record, I've been playing it pretty hard core for the past couple of weeks and I can't imagine why. Artillery is the worst balanced thing in the game and you can have your tank go from 100% to dead simply by having a Light tank ram you at flank speed. Let's also ignore the fact that it takes my Wesp something like 30s to reload my weapon and another 10s to aim it which doesn't include reducing my CoF. ABSOLUTELY terrible game but I'm a WW2 historian and I can't get enough of it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

The point is, if people are willing to watch other folks play cards, then adding time to TTK shouldn't really be an impact.

TTK has a huge impact on what tactics and strats are used, the longer TTK is, the more often you are to see brawling and mid-range pushes because you can survive that initial damage and get within your range.

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Adding some level of real life into the game isn't a bad thing as long as it isn't World of Tanks stupid.

Adding realism for the sake of realism is bad if it impacts gameplay in a negative way.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 June 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 June 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

TTK has a huge impact on what tactics and strats are used, the longer TTK is, the more often you are to see brawling and mid-range pushes because you can survive that initial damage and get within your range.


Adding realism for the sake of realism is bad if it impacts gameplay in a negative way.

Which is exactly why it should be added in very small doses. Heat penalties that impact movement speed and precision don't hurt anyone other than folks that can't manage their resources - that is a skill aspect. Speed penalties just makes sense because it is in every FPS but doesn't need to be so drastic that it crushes the skill of shooters. And, doing reduced damage when you don't have target information simply means that it requires teams to stop sitting in one spot and peaking/poking - that adds more skill to the game while also meaning that you've got to press a bit more. None of what I'm talking about would be bad. In fact, it would simply reduce the skill level between those that have it and those that don't which, btw, would be an awesome thing with an actual PSR that penalizes bad players. I'm tier 2 and feel comfortable being in that tier - do you feel good about being tier 1 and having tier 2 or 3 players in your games that have literally been carried to that because PSR is nothing more than a games played XP bar?

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 June 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

TTK has a huge impact on what tactics and strats are used, the longer TTK is, the more often you are to see brawling and mid-range pushes because you can survive that initial damage and get within your range.

Are you implying that this would be a bad thing?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 June 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

Adding realism for the sake of realism is bad if it impacts gameplay in a negative way.

Define "negative way". I have the feeling that what some would see as negative, others would see as positive, and vice versa.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 17 June 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yep. It would be great. Maybe static Dropships for fighters to have launched from on or off the map a bit. Maybe even player dropships. I want a cruiser class though. Or corvette class.

AI And player controlled dropships might be fine, since there are also specific carrier and anti warship dropships in lore. Mostly Dropships would be ineffective against Warships (short of ramming) but certainly would be important anti-fighter screen elements. So would probably be the most boring assignments. Maybe each capitol ship gets a compliment of AI dropships it can deploy in various manners, from anti fighter screen to carrier duties, etc?

[Johnny Z]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 June 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

AI And player controlled dropships might be fine, since there are also specific carrier and anti warship dropships in lore. Mostly Dropships would be ineffective against Warships (short of ramming) but certainly would be important anti-fighter screen elements. So would probably be the most boring assignments. Maybe each capitol ship gets a compliment of AI dropships it can deploy in various manners, from anti fighter screen to carrier duties, etc?

There isn't even 1 space sim like this avalaible. There is a couple multi player sailing ship games out with large scale battles, and a new one being made with multi crew ships.

Anyway, Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen wont provide awesome battle like MechWarrior Aerospace could and it would be awesome.

One game could manage doing this and that would be the X series and it may be single player and I think they are working on it at this moment. X series is making a new game with lessons learned from their last game.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 June 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 June 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

Adding realism for the sake of realism is bad if it impacts gameplay in a negative way.

that's a very subjective opinion, my friend. Others would call it immersion, and very much desire it. I always prefer a Private Ryan type movie to John Woo /Tarantino tbh. Ditto with Games. I like the occasional escapist film (hence why I watch Marvel movies) and game, but I certainly don't feel like I should push for every movie (or game) to be escapist because I might have ADD or something.

There should be room enough for BOTH crowds to have their games and movies to enjoy. And what chafes my chaps is people insisting every game become the insta access, low skill floor escapist play type. It's one thing if that is what the game is marketed to be, then by all means, have at it. But it does piss me off when people come to a a game being marketed as a "Sim-Lite" for example, then demand it become a zero immersion vanilla shooter.

That's not exactly what happened with MWO, and the Devs are as guilty of deciding to chase that unicorn as any of the players for pushing the agenda... but it's not that far off, either.

Johnny Z, on 17 June 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

There isn't even 1 space sim like this avalaible. There is a couple multi player sailing ship games out with large scale battles, and a new one being made with multi crew ships.

Anyway, Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen wont provide awesome battle like MechWarrior Aerospace could and it would be awesome.

It's why from the moment they unveiled the Trannyspace Fiasco, I was pushing them to change it to an Aerotech IP game, loosely linked to a global CW map with MWO. That MIGHT have garnered some support, though by now, I would say any such attempts are DoA.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Which is exactly why it should be added in very small doses. Heat penalties that impact movement speed and precision don't hurt anyone other than folks that can't manage their resources - that is a skill aspect.

You act as if people don't manage their resources now?

You want actual heat penalties? Punish players more for going above 100% both if faster override damage and longer shutdowns (seriously, startup in this game is much faster than MW4) rather than aim, make them more actively regret not keeping track of their heat.

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

peed penalties just makes sense because it is in every FPS but doesn't need to be so drastic that it crushes the skill of shooters.

This is not in every shooter btw.

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

And, doing reduced damage when you don't have target information simply means that it requires teams to stop sitting in one spot and peaking/poking

Again, reducing ranged damage just means people are more likely to push that way they don't have this problem. This last MRBC season didn't see a lot of ranged play, most teams that tried to play the range game just got pushed on and crushed, there are very few maps you can actually pull that off anymore, can we stop acting like ranged play is this terrible thing in this game?

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

In fact, it would simply reduce the skill level between those that have it and those that don't which, btw, would be an awesome thing with an actual PSR that penalizes bad players. I'm tier 2 and feel comfortable being in that tier - do you feel good about being tier 1 and having tier 2 or 3 players in your games that have literally been carried to that because PSR is nothing more than a games played XP bar?

This isn't really connected to the discussion at hand, but I would prefer a zero sum PSR, yes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 June 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

that's a very subjective opinion, my friend. Others would call it immersion, and very much desire it.

Let's not conflate immersion with realism, while realism can create immersion, they are not always connected.
It really isn't subjective though, at least as far as I'm concerned, because sims really aren't games in the typical sense, they are more VR "games". Which if you like, that's cool, but that's not why I play this game, and I imagine its not why many flocked to Mechwarrior in the first place, it is a game first.

Bishop Steiner, on 17 June 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

But it does piss me off when people come to a a game being marketed as a "Sim-Lite" for example, then demand it become a zero immersion vanilla shooter.

Honestly I would rather it stop being marketed as a sim-lite because it has always been misleading, the only reason this is considered a sim-lite is because of the deeper hit model and heat mechanics. That's all I really find that is mechanically different from typical shooters (aside from the slower pace). Of course, as a human being, I don't want to see any compromise because the realism and game design are very often at odds with each other and finding a happy medium is just going to both keep this a very niche game and make both sides unhappy imo.

Hotthedd, on 17 June 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

Are you implying that this would be a bad thing?

Yes, because long range isn't strong right now, pushes were the thing to do this last season of MRBC, even on the heavier drops. Sure alphas could potentially be lower, but sustained DPS on several mechs would also have to come down as well.

Hotthedd, on 17 June 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

Define "negative way". I have the feeling that what some would see as negative, others would see as positive, and vice versa.

Anything that negatively impacts gameplay, whether it be it lowers depth or "skill" in some fashion. Sure recoil or reticle sway during certain situations would be nice, but I don't think it is honestly needed because this fear of pinpoint alphas is somewhat misguided/misplaced imo.

[Trauglodyte]

Quick, people don't manage their resources. Battletech was never meant to be a burn until you shut down sort of thing but everyone does it. Heat needs to be a mitigating factor and it needs to be a balancing factor. That it isn't is why players shove as many energy weapons onto a frame as they can and burn until they have to Cool Shot only to do it again.

I understand being leery of all of this. But, raising one's game because of added obstacles, assuming that they're not overly done, is the mark of a great player. Would think that the upper echelon community would want something to make them increase the gap between them and everyone else. Am I missing something? Is there something about some of these things that makes you think that it would take skill away from you?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Trauglodyte, on 17 June 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Heat needs to be a mitigating factor and it needs to be a balancing factor.

I'm sorry that you think this isn't the case, but it is, well for everything but dakka that is and guess what the next meta is probably going to end up (hint: its dakka)?