425 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Moldur, on 14 June 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

I think something as simple as a big crosshair with no center dot, and forced arm unlock (like beta) would be enough to increase ttk.

Imagine having 2 big circles that are only slightly smaller than the red target lock box.

Dakka Kodiak said:

lol

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

You mean the reason the Gaussapult was one of the best pre-HSR sniping mechs thanks to minimal convergence issues allowing it to make snapshots easier than something like a Jager (even though Jager was added with HSR)?

What's currently stopping someone from still doing the same with the Gaussapult?

Besides, time-to-convergence can always be adjusted.

[Rafe Yomin]

Yellonet, on 14 June 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Incorporating things into the game that makes it more difficult to hit what you're aiming at would not be a good idea as that would take away a large portion of the skill involved in the game. Personally I've always hated games which use cones of fire where there really shouldn't be one. We are talking about warmachines 1000 years into the future, it doesn't seem believable that their weapon systems would be less accurate than the fire arms we have already had for hundreds of years.
Besides, combat often happens on relatively short ranges, if weapons had much better range we would see more combat from further away, and then it would become harder to hit.

Not gonna speak for or against the issue, but would just like to point you to the lore. They actually are that inaccurate when you read the books . Aim at center torso, have one laser hitting a leg isn't uncommon. The more a mech heats up, the worse the targeting computer works. (mechs with great targetting computers are godlike ). Most of the tech was lost, and they are working with centuries old tech which they hardly know how it works anymore. That's the reason the clans had such an easy time at the start of the invasion. Better heatsinks, less heat, more power, better targeting computers, better armor (hell, better at everything other than close combat mech combat).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

What's currently stopping someone from still doing the same with the Gaussapult?

The fact that instant convergence means a Jager can generally do the exact same snapshots (though with Gauss charge that matters less as well) though it still suffers when needing to lead any serious amount. Which is why faster velocity is really nice on the JM6-A at extreme range since it removes some of the lead.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[Mystere]

Rampage, on 14 June 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

AS I understand cone of fire (an artificially induced spread mechanic) ...

It's not as artificial as you probably think.

[Pjwned]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

The problem with that, I will state again for the 50th some odd time, convergence on lock hurts mechs that are already bad more than it does meta mechs, because clustered hardpoints are already really nice, and forcing locks for nice clean convergence only further emphasizes the importance of those clustered hardpoints.

Messing with convergence other than ADDING to current functionality like the ability to converge on locked targets rather than reticle would only exacerbate chassis balance. Mechs like the Nova, King Crab, and Executioner would suffer more than they already do.

That's (partly) why we also need some actual info warfare functionality to go along with less ridiculous convergence, but since PGI copped out of doing any kind of info warfare because they instead came up with the stupidest dogshit solution imaginable (ghost damage on lasers LOL) and there's no indication of it being addressed again any time soon, it'll probably be another 2+ years before PGI gets around to it again.

That doesn't mean it's not still the right solution though.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 June 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[Moldur]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

Touché, but now you're talking about damage over time builds, not alpha builds. To be fair, I did not specify that in my post, but high alpha is generally what people are talking about when everyone gets in a tizzy about TTK. That's what I was thinking about when I said that.

Not directed toward you specifically, but I have noticed there is a bit of a contradiction around here. People don't like the huge alphas in MWO, yet when a powerful damage over time build like the 4xUAC-10 Kodiak comes along, people are even more against it. They both fit into low ttk, but people need to differentiate among ttk, alphas, and other builds that just work well but aren't high alphas.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Moldur, on 14 June 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Touché, but now you're talking about damage over time builds, not alpha builds.

No, the quad 10 Kodiak has more in common with laser boats and alpha mechs than it does with actual dakka mechs like the 6 UAC5 Whale or 5 AC5 Mauler. Those mechs are built for DPS, not the dakka kodiak.

Keep in mind, it has an 80 point alpha, the old meta Whale only did 4 more points of damage at 84.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[Ronin13m]

Well if a jumping mech needs its crosshairs tossed all around so should a running mech. Now the movement should not be random but I would really like to see any machine that can at all times keep its guns pointed straight ahead and perfectly aimed. Just like all shooters with a cone of fire. When not standing still and aiming a mech should be the same thing. I don't agree with the straight ahead only fireing but if a machine weighing as much as a mech takes a step the guns would have to adjust instantaniously for what we currently have for aiming to occure

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Lots of arguing about this. Some are fine with current TTK, some hate it. Some point out "1v1 it's fine" (mostly), the problem being that we seldom get 1v1 fights....but a lot of focus fire.

To counter that...PGI decided to Double Armor early in closed Beta. And as power creep came in, aided and abetted by the easiest targeting system in any shooter I've ever played.... TTK continues to plummet, and PGI keeps looking at "outside the box" fixes to limit damage... all the while buffing armor and structure more and more.... which may help in big fights for focus fire.... but then leaves it silly when you do get the drop on a lone mech so often, as you try to chip through huge layers of Quirk padding.

Here's the thing. Even if one removes the "random Hit Assignment Table" which is a core of the TT game, the simple act of hitting another moving robot was not easy. Even with elite skilled warriors, you missed 2/3 of the time or more, especially against fast/jumpy opponents and/or if you were also the fast jumpy one.

To demonstrate:

I've mapped out your basic combat modifiers on multiple threads in the past.

Assuming one was Natasha frikking Kerensky with a 0 base Gunnery Target:
Running: +2 modifier
Opponent Movement: (we'll let it be a big fat assault) 4-6 hexes +2
Partial cover: +1
Medium Range: +2

so that, which is a very average, normal encounter in MWO, is a 7 pt to hit modifier, on 2d6, where the hit then is randomly determined. And if it was against a running Light? +4, not 2. Intervening terrrain (which includes your own cover)? another +1 minimum. Long range? +4 instead of +2. Jumping? +3 if you are doing it, and another +1 if opponent.

So to hit a Jumping Light, at long range, over cover? +10 before your own movement and any other intervening terrain is added.

So an ELITE warrior would need a 10 on 2d6 to hit that Light.

Mind you am I stumping "for dice and RNG heraderp" like people always fall back on when immersive targeting is mentioned?

No. But I am pointing out that for the flavor and feel of this game, it is entirely too easy, and more to the point to hit exactly where you want, repeatedly. With a better, more believable firing mechanic and functional heatscale (which none of my to hits above factored, but DOES actually matter in TT) we probably could be running stock TT armor values, not this Doubled + Uber Quirked Structures just to vaguely survive.

Simple fact is, a less easily precise form of targeting is exactly what Battltech is supposed ot be built around, with a much more constraining and Heatscale that actualyl impacted your actions BEFORE shutdown, with your targeting and movement being hampered, your ammo running a chance of cooking off if you ran too hot, too long, or even shut down before hitting your threshold.

You want to "fix" TTK? "Skill" folk need to get over their revulsion to limited situational CoF mechanics, and we need a revamped heatscale and affects ( and BTW, we HAD heat that affected targeting in early CB, as well as ammo cookoffs. I don't recall if we had movement affected or not though, been 4 years)

Otherwise, all you can expect is more of the same, and convoluted "fixes" like Ghost Heat, Power Draw, Gauss DeSync and Charge Up, etc. Mind you, I don't actually see it being realistic to see these things happen this far down the rabbit hole.. but if people want to point fingers at what's wrong, let's actually get some perspective of the actual problems in the games base mechanics.

TLDR; In Battletech aiming was actually supposed to be hard, and your heatscale was supposed to matter.

Hence why I've always said trying to port direct vales from tt to a fps was bad. We need to let go of that fetishist. In TT you were lucky to hit with 1 out of 3 MLS at 120m. You certainly were not hitting the same location.

Honestly? Cut armor back in half, make all weapons a 1 second (give or take) dot except missiles and give them a total DPS of their tt value over 10 seconds. Do the same with heat. So call MLAS 1 pt over 1 second with a 1 second cooldown between shots.

This would best simulate the expected relative spread of damage over targets while letting people fire more frequently and accurately. Then add in a small cof effect based on target locks and your own movement. Small, just enough to shake accuracy a little bit.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

No, the quad 10 Kodiak has more in common with laser boats and alpha mechs than it does with actual dakka mechs like the 6 UAC5 Whale or 5 AC5 Mauler. Those mechs are built for DPS, not the dakka kodiak.

Keep in mind, it has an 80 40 point alpha, the old meta Whale only did 4 more points of damage at 84.

FTFY. It's not really 80, and subject to jamming.

Edited by Mystere, 14 June 2016 - 02:09 PM.

[Vanguard319]

Yellonet, on 14 June 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Incorporating things into the game that makes it more difficult to hit what you're aiming at would not be a good idea as that would take away a large portion of the skill involved in the game. Personally I've always hated games which use cones of fire where there really shouldn't be one. We are talking about warmachines 1000 years into the future, it doesn't seem believable that their weapon systems would be less accurate than the fire arms we have already had for hundreds of years.
Besides, combat often happens on relatively short ranges, if weapons had much better range we would see more combat from further away, and then it would become harder to hit.

There is no skill involved in this game, none at all. As for weapons technology, I would point out that JDAMs have a circular error probable of 13 m, meaning that the weapon will hit it's target within a 13 m radius. This is a Precision munition guided by GPS satellites, there is no such thing as pinpoint accuracy, and here you are claiming that CoF is unrealistic. If you ask me, being able to head shot an opponent from 1000 m away despite having a degree of inaccuracy shows far more skill than the current point and shoot we have now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

FTFY. It's not really 80, and subject to jamming.

The alpha potential is 80 if you don't jam, whether or not you hit with all of it is another story since it is harder to land the shots than the old Meta Whale, but against larger targets, the idea is the same though even if your capability isn't. Find a target moving very little, throw a couple double taps and cool down. If you are intending to use it is a Clan Mauler, there are better builds to do that with.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

The alpha potential is 80 if you don't jam, whether or not you hit with all of it is another story since it is harder to land the shots than the old Meta Whale, but against larger targets, the idea is the same though even if your capability isn't. Find a target moving very little, throw a couple double taps and cool down. If you are intending to use it is a Clan Mauler, there are better builds to do that with.

I always include probability numbers when doing my calculations. It helps during those "Oh ****!" moments.

Edited by Mystere, 14 June 2016 - 02:17 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

I always include probability numbers when doing my calculations. It helps during those "Oh ****!" moments.

It may help get a better gauge on performance, but it doesn't have a significant impact on how you play it, which is what really matters. The intent of it is to do amounts of burst damage, not constant damage like a Mauler.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

It may help get a better gauge on performance, but it doesn't have a significant impact on how you play it, which is what really matters. The intent of it is to do amounts of burst damage, not constant damage like a Mauler.

Of course it does. If I expect to do 80 damage for the kill but only do 60, that could mean the enemy can shoot back and kill me.

Edited by Mystere, 14 June 2016 - 02:24 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

It's not as artificial as you probably think.

If I am not mistaken, they are describing artillery shell accuracy there. I know with autocannons and gauss there may be some variation but I believe we would be talking centimeters not meters. In MWO we would be injecting a RNG factor into weapon accuracy. That is what I meant by artificial. I would be more in favor of reticle bounce which may be overcome with skill rather than depending upon luck.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

Of course it does. If I expect to do 80 damage for the kill but only do 60, that could mean the enemy can shoot back and kill me.

You never know how much damage you actually need to do thanks to no HTAL (seriously, why do we still not have this ) and structure quirks often messing up any kind of useful color identification, most of my shots are made with the hope I will finish them unless they are cherry red and I'm fairly certain whatever I shoot them with will finish them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

I was gonna say that threading the needle at 1000m is rarely a thing while running and gunning, but then remembered I killed a Locust a couple of days that way with 2 ERPPCs that I luckily landed on him which killed him (I'm guessing it bugged and registered on the rear). Point is, I don't think running and gunning is really a problem in this game, so trying to design this to counter the "potential" for it is a bit misplaced imo, but it also depends on how minor it is, if I'm still able to land shots on most if not all heavies if I aim center mass of their torso at a significant range that maybe I'm ok with it, but still not really a fan especially given how powerful aggressive pushes have been lately within the meta (Crayon Network being one of the few exceptions).

IDK..... I well remember the days of 600 meter snapshot poptarts, multiple mechs all landing shots same exact location on Lights and Mediums at full run.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

IDK..... I well remember the days of 600 meter snapshot poptarts, multiple mechs all landing shots same exact location on Lights and Mediums at full run.

Fair, poptarts were known for it, but 600m is pretty different from 1000m, I mean I can understand maybe a minor increase in spread for jumping instead of the cockpit shake, but other than that I'm really ok with that, the main problem with poptarting during those days was the silly 3x gravity that allowed them to fall faster than most reactions allowed, they need to hover at the apex longer (the apex hang in MW4 was honestly about right for that).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 02:39 PM.