63 replies to this topic

[Walsung]

they also seem to clip terrain easily making it harder to peak

[Vonbach]

PPC's just take practice. Once you learn to use them they are actually pretty good.

[Jables McBarty]

GLaDOSauR, on 17 June 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

PPC's can be very fun and satisfying to use once mastered. The problem is...They are basically inferior to LPLs in every way. Sorry

In numbers alone, sure. But in actual gameplay, it's highly situational.

LPLs need to be kept on target for longer (as in, at all) than a PPC.

Conversely, PPCs are projectiles, which means you can fire them and torso twist away/duck behind cover immediately without reducing damage on target. Ideally, you torso-twist immediately, before the projectile hits the target (use the reticule flash to confirm a hit).

You can also lead projectiles, but can't lead hit-scan lasers. If you are really good at the "ambush" mode of leading a target, you can shoot while a moving enemy is behind cover such that it hits them once they emerge. With good aim and timing, you can squeeze off an ambush-lead shot and get behind cover before the enemy emerges, thus hitting a target that has no idea where you are. With LPLs, you have a giant, pulsating blue line telling the enemy exactly where you are.

PPCs have Pin-Point Front-Loaded Damage (PPFLD) meaning that all 10 points go into the component you aimed at. (assuming the hit is detected--I've had few issues with hit detection. Mostly my issues are oversized building/terrain hitboxes or shooting between arms/legs), rather than the risk of spreading across multiple components.

(ER)PPCs have longer range than LPL.

[Koniving]

LadyDanams, on 17 June 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

I was comparing IS vs IS and the numbers are all correct. Shows exactly why pulse lasers are the meta instead of PPCs.

LPL and large lasers have had damage inflation multiple times at PGI's hands.
Their proper numbers should be 8 damage (Large Laser and ER) and 9 damage (Large Pulse) respectively for IS.
ER Large and Large Pulse for the Clan is 10 damage and 10 damage.

This inflation to the numbers you previously described is why they are the meta in addition to giving the weapons a set velocity and then slapping certain mechs with an incredibly unfair "50%" velocity increase...doesn't help.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 20 June 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

LPL and large lasers have had damage inflation multiple times at PGI's hands.
Their proper numbers should be 8 damage (Large Laser and ER) and 9 damage (Large Pulse) respectively for IS.
ER Large and Large Pulse for the Clan is 10 damage and 10 damage.

This inflation to the numbers you previously described is why they are the meta in addition to giving the weapons a set velocity and then slapping certain mechs with an incredibly unfair "50%" velocity increase...doesn't help.

What is odd Koniving, is outside of a few pilots, most will not use PPC's unless the mech has between 30-50% velocity quirks for PPC's, that to me should be telling PGI that PPC's are generally too slow.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 20 June 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

What is odd Koniving, is outside of a few pilots, most will not use PPC's unless the mech has between 30-50% velocity quirks for PPC's, that to me should be telling PGI that PPC's are generally too slow.

Agreed.

They used to be 1500 ms and that's fine.
2000 ms was a bit much.
Right now they're 1100 to 1300 ish.
1300 + 50% is 1950 m/s.
1100 + 50% is 1650 m/s.
Just give us 1450 and 1500.
Then give us +10% which is 1650 m/s.

Bam, useful weapon and slight edge for those who need it.
Bam: Freed up "quirks" to enhance other aspects of PPC-specific mechs.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 20 June 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Agreed.

They used to be 1500 ms and that's fine.
2000 ms was a bit much.
Right now they're 1100 to 1300 ish.
1300 + 50% is 1950 m/s.
1100 + 50% is 1650 m/s.
Just give us 1450 and 1500.
Then give us +10% which is 1650 m/s.

Bam, useful weapon and slight edge for those who need it.
Bam: Freed up "quirks" to enhance other aspects of PPC-specific mechs.

Very much agreed.

But quirks in general, I've found them a bit questionable in their application... like why does the Warhammer, a mech that tradionaly carried 2 MG's get a general ballistics weapon quirk? Wouldn't SRM or missile made more sense or perhaps more laser focused quriks, I mean it does pack a pair of MLas and SLas?

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 20 June 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Very much agreed.

But quirks in general, I've found them a bit questionable in their application... like why does the Warhammer, a mech that tradionaly carried 2 MG's get a general ballistics weapon quirk? Wouldn't SRM or missile made more sense or perhaps more laser focused quriks, I mean it does pack a pair of MLas and SLas?

Even better question.

Why are the mechs getting quirks for what they have the "most" of...

....and not what they have the least of?

For example if I have 9 energy hardpoints and 1 missile... I'm not gonna carry that missile.
To make it worse the one missile is in the cockpit, so it only has 1 slot. I'm not gonna carry it.
Now you've gone and quirked the energy hardpoints. Why would I carry the missile?

Quirks were made during the Clan introduction as a reason to choose "the limbs with the fewest hardpoints."
"Sure you could choose this arm with 3 energy, but it is less efficient than this limb with two energy... and this limb with one energy has a little bonus for you."

...Yep.
"9 energy?"
"25% energy quirk, + 15% specific energy weapon quirk."
"Wait it had a missile? Pfft, no one would use one anyway."

The problem with quirks in a nutshell.

[Sadistic Savior]

Chryckan, on 17 June 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

I like the PPC. I like the sound. I like the GFX. I especially like the splash it makes when it hits something. I want to use it.

Problem, I I can't do any damage with it. Mostly because whenever I shoot I seem to miss. I try to shoot directly at a target I miss. I try to lead the target I miss. Shots that I know would have been a guaranteed hit with any other weapon system miss. Even when I hit I apparently miss.
Because even though I see the PPCs make a nice splash on an enemy and the cross-hair turn red I still end up with a double digit damage score.

And I don't even know what I do wrong because according to the feedback from the game, big nice splash on the enemy mech and red flashing cross.hair, I didn't.
Though it does happen that I feel like the shot just went through the enemy. (I checked. Nothing wrong with the hit registration however.)

So what should I do to hit and do reliable damage with a PPCs.

PPCs are a specialist weapon, like Gauss. You basically have to treat them like energy autocannons. They have great range and do all their damage to one point, like Autocannons. But they trade off more heat generation for unlimited ammo and the cool disruption effect to ECM.

They won't have the punch of an AC/20 or Gauss though. Like an AC/10 you will usually need to use multiple PPCs together. They are not my own weapons of choice, but I have been in lots of games where they have been used effectively. Light pilots like to use them for sniping (long range + unlimited ammo...although they are luminous, so they telegraph their position. But less so than lasers).

Like autocannons, they require good aim, and good aim is a skill that not everyone has. Get a high resolution mouse, a good video card and a fast internet connection.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 20 June 2016 - 07:12 PM.

[Ruslan Savelyev]

I've tried all sorts of builds and for what it is worth, I can't get any PPC/ERPPC build to outperform a LL/LPL/ERLL build. Lasers in general are just so easy to hit with and do basically the same damage.

It is one thing to like the weapon, which I want to 'cuz TT nostalgia, but I probably will do 30-50% more damage with a laser build. Add in the fact that velocity quirks differ, and you have to estimate different lead distances depending on the chassis.

If you are a good shot, I'd say you will do far better and have more fun with a Gauss or AC than a PPC.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

I dunno, 20% extra velocity on the BNC-3E seemed good enough for me and 15% on WHK (ER)PPC seemed good enough for me, but unquirked felt just horrible.

50% feels awesome on an Awesome.

[Koniving]

Keshav Murali, on 21 June 2016 - 03:09 AM, said:

I dunno, 20% extra velocity on the BNC-3E seemed good enough for me and 15% on WHK (ER)PPC seemed good enough for me, but unquirked felt just horrible.

50% feels awesome on an Awesome.

Exactly.
Assuming you're talking about the ER PPC speed of 1300 + 15%...
You're looking at 1495 m/s.
For the Banshee, again assuming it's for the ER PPC.. 1300+20%
You're looking at 1560 m/s (or if PPC, then 1100 + 20% = 1320).

The reason I mention this is from up above:

Koniving, on 20 June 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

They used to be 1500 ms and that's fine.
Right now they're 1100 to 1300 ish.
1300 + 50% is 1950 m/s.
1100 + 50% is 1650 m/s.
Just give us 1450 and 1500.
Then give us +10% which is 1650 m/s.

Thus...
Assume an Awesome 8Q only gets 15% quirks.
1667.5 IS PPC (1450) and 1725 ER PPC (1500).
Now compare to current with 50% quirks.
1300 + 50% is 1950 m/s.
1100 + 50% is 1650 m/s.

Freed up quirks for other things.

(In other words, I completely agree that around 1400 to 1500 feels really good and is usable.. and we can thus shrink PPC quirks and have quirked freed for the real problems on these mechs).

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

I use regulars on the Banshee, they sync up well with AC/5s, but I can definitely feel the difference between it and the Warhawk.

[Metus regem]

Ruslan Savelyev, on 21 June 2016 - 01:55 AM, said:

I've tried all sorts of builds and for what it is worth, I can't get any PPC/ERPPC build to outperform a LL/LPL/ERLL build. Lasers in general are just so easy to hit with and do basically the same damage.

It is one thing to like the weapon, which I want to 'cuz TT nostalgia, but I probably will do 30-50% more damage with a laser build. Add in the fact that velocity quirks differ, and you have to estimate different lead distances depending on the chassis.

If you are a good shot, I'd say you will do far better and have more fun with a Gauss or AC than a PPC.

The reason why lasers feel easier, is simply because they are a low skill floor weapon, you point at the target and instantly hit. The trade off for the LL/ERLL/LPL vs PPC/ERPPC is that the LL/ERLL/LPL are a DOT (Damage Over TIme) weapon systems, while the PPC/ERPPC is PPFLD (Pin Point Front Load Damage) weapon systems. The advantage to PPFLD is that you do full damage instantly when they hit, rather than over the beam duration. The down side is, if you miss with PPFLD, you miss all your damage, while DOT lasers can be adjusted to hit the target during the burn them. The down side to DOT weapons, is that you can twist the damage that they do across your mech or out of the beam all together due to it taking time to deal that damage.

[Alienized]

W E N D I G O, on 21 June 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

Lies and halftruths.

CERPPCs have the same velocity as IS ERPPCs. IS PPCs velocity is 100m/s lower than every ERPPC variant in the game. ERPPC range is also exactly the same and sits at 810/1620 for both factions, PPC is logically lower since it's not ER. PPFLD is the same for all PPC versions but CERPPC have additional splashdamage of 2x2,5 which might hit something - or not.

Not one "dedicated clan ppc shooter" gets even near quirked IS PPC velocity or heatvalues.

Your entitled barking is as usual as false as it is biased.

ya, my knowledge about the clan er ppc speed was a bit outdated.
now, saying that the warhawk with quad er ppc's isnt even near IS quirk level... have u ever played that thing to know something about it? its so damn easy to play heat efficient with FOUR er ppc's that it puts the SO GODLY QUIRKED thunderbolt-9s to shame with it. by only using 2 er ppc's.

you are hyberboling against the IS pretty hard right here.
the adder can fire 2 er ppc's awkwardly heat efficient for its size as well.

dont get rude about such things, they are true.

the extra splash damage is the best thing about clan ppc's. you dont even need to hit properly to kill XL IS mechs/make std engine mechs weaponless..
less shots needed, less heat generated.

major advantages. so why should clan er ppc's and the mechs get quirked much?

Edited by Alienized, 21 June 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[Alienized]

W E N D I G O, on 21 June 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Nothing to add. Spot on as usual. I think we can agree on that.

i play ppc/er ppc on both sides in quick play. on clans you CAN use them as standalone weapons.
on IS mechs they NEED a good amount of working support weapons. er ppc's on IS side are utter pointless to use,
standard PPC'S got their own problems you can work around but nonetheless are problems.

IF IS er ppc's would do splash damage too it would be a good way to upgrade them but PGI would need to tone down quirks on heat generation/cooldown without messing up the standard PPC.

Edited by Alienized, 21 June 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[Alienized]

W E N D I G O, on 21 June 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Dude, you come here, talking about stuff you even admit you don't know anything about, crying about balance issues while not even knowing the current values, and on top of that you get edgy when it's getting pointed out.

If you can't tell that there is quite the difference between 15% velocity buff/8% heat reduction for Clans or 50% velocity buff/25% heat reduction/10%cooldown reduction for Inner Sphere it's not on me to make a point.

Oh, and maybe you should get some info on why there is splash damage for CERPPCs in the first place before crying for the same for IS PPC weapons. Not that it would be something you should wish for. Or maybe so. For the advantage. Scrub.

you do know the difference between IS double heat sinks and clan double heatsinks, dont you?
also there is still the advantage of NOT DYING when a side torso gets boomed in a XL mech and you definetly need a XL engine to use ER PPC's on IS side.

its not all about quirks. its about all the things coming together, all you look at are bloody numbers.
yes, 50% velocity quirks ARE alot but if you put them on standard PPC's its still not really fast and you cant deny that standard PPC'S need such a heavy buff to be even remotely useful. do the math of it.
the amount of 50% velocity quirks is also not very high.

as i noted, no one uses IS ER PPC's on mechs with 50% velocity quirks because LPL are far better in everything, especially heat.

clan er ppc's been faster than IS er ppc's before.

fact is, warhawk works far better on pure PPC's than anything the IS has, even with all the quirks on the mechs.

Edited by Alienized, 21 June 2016 - 10:48 AM.

[Koniving]

Children, children please. I love a good debate or argument as much as the next guy but right now I'm out of popcorn (rather too lazy to go heat some up) and it isn't any fun if you're bashing each other instead of ideas. "Why my idea is good." "Yeah, well your idea sucks because it falls apart here, here, and in this spot I totally made up." "Actually it doesn't fall apart here, yes it has trouble there, and where did you come up with this?" "...etc."

Once it hits the "No you" and "Proven troll" stage, the debate ceases to be about anything meaningful or productive at all.

Truth be told in the last two posts I couldn't even tell what you were arguing about anymore.
Alien, people do use PPCs with or without quirks, but usually in set builds and even then they are 'wonder weapons' or backed up with lasers or missiles usually. I'm personally guilty of a one two punch with twin LPL on one arm and twin PPC on the other arm, it can be very useful to have one's options available.

Wendigo, the last post you made really was just trolling and personal attacks (not that Alien isn't guilty of the same), it didn't even try to point out flaws in the debate about lasers versus PPCs. Even the first response I saw "Lies and half-truths" was unnecessary as the correction was already made to Alien by someone else (me) minus the attack on his character before a judge and jury.

Both of you should settle down and cool off or take it to instant messages or off-topic.

There's debates, arguments and then there's "This." And "This" just makes us all look bad.

Edit: Inserted missing word "Have" between "To" and "One's"

Edited by Koniving, 21 June 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

Koniving beat me to it (as usual), but seriously guys, not in front of the nubs!

This is New Player Help, not General Discussion. Keep it classy.

[Alienized]

thanks kon, i tried to stay reasonable but in the end, im a little hot blooded volcano.
at least i tried to make points and i think i had a good load of them in the posts. i hope.
i agree with you tho, i shouldnt have went that far on attacks.


i use PPC so often on so many mechs (even on the QKD-5K again) but i barely see them on the field at all. especially not ER ppc's.
even the thunderbolt-9s are more often played with LPL or large lasers instead
i tried dual er ppc + 2 srm4 with std engine but meh. too hot for it.