17 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

A thought occurred to me. A lot of people are complaining because the KDK-3 is the best ballistic boat with no Inner Sphere counterpart. And a lot of people are complaining because the Mauler got its ballistic quirks nerfed now, and they considered it the best IS ballistic boat for builds like 5xAC5 or 4xUAC5.

So I look at the King Crab quirks and I'm wondering if it would be a good thing to buff King Crab ballistics to compete with the KDK-3. Would this result in unwanted power creep? Or would it have little effect due to some characteristic of the King Crab, such as low weapon mounts?

The King Crab quirks look very weird to me, by the way. Never really considered it, because I don't own any of them.

KGC-000 has 6 ballistic hardpoints.

• 10% ballistic cooldown
  
• 10% AC20 cooldown
  
• 15% projectile velocity

KGC-0000 has 2 ballistic hardpoints

• No ballistic quirks

KCG-000B has 4 ballistic hardpoints

• 30% projectile velocity
  
• 5% ballistic cooldown

Now, it seems to me... that it would make more sense to give AC20 quirks to the 0000, which only has 2 ballistic hardpoints. I'd give the 0000 good AC20 cooldown, maybe also range and velocity bonus, to compensate for the short-range, slow moving AC20 shells.

The 000 and 000B can run builds like 5xAC5, 4xUAC5, 6xAC2, etc, so they don't really need the AC20 cooldown. They need general cooldown and velocity.

The King Crab is arguably the most iconic ballistic carrier of all IS assault mechs in the game, with more weight dedicated to ballistic weapons than any other IS assault mech. It's also an iconic Clan buster. So I think it would be fitting if it could rival the KDK-3 in a dakka slinging contest. I haven't played it though, so I don't know if this is a realistic and desirable prospect.

Thoughts?

[RePlayBoy101]

the older assaults in general need a buff
kingcrab mostly suffers from the lack of armour but its still better than a dire


ps

was gonna say the dire is usless but i wont cuz people wuld say "its gonna be smaller in the next patch"... i dont care its still a F*** 100 ton mech that goes 50km/h, cant torsotwist and everything on the battlefield can strip it in less than 3 seconds

Edited by RePlayBoy101, 20 June 2016 - 03:13 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

I don't know what the reasoning behind the number of the hardpoint inflation, but:

• hardpoints aside, the four O (0000) doesn't come with AC/20 because it's a downgrade so to preserve the original flavor, let's give it laser and missile quirks (LRM Crabs *gasp*) instead because lasers and missiles are where this variant shines. Give it -5% ballistic CD for good measure.
  
• give the 000B general -15% ballistic cooldown quirk because it can do 2Gauss+3LL and quad UAC/5. This one is meant to imitate the 001 Clan Buster variant with its dual Gauss (because we didn't get it).
  
• give the 000 general -5% ballistic CD, -15% AC/20 CD, and -20% general ballistic heat quirks. This one is created to carry dual AC/20 and the ballistic heat quirk is for the dual AC/20 (big Ghost Heat value) and the occasional 6x AC/2 builds (because PGI has given it 6B for some reason).

[Alistair Winter]

Hit the Deck, on 20 June 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

I don't know what the reasoning behind the number of the hardpoint inflation, but:

• hardpoints aside, the four O (0000) doesn't come with AC/20 because it's a downgrade so to preserve the original flavor, let's give it laser and missile quirks (LRM Crabs *gasp*) instead because lasers and missiles are where this variant shines. Give it -5% ballistic CD for good measure.

I don't understand if you're being serious or ironic here. You're actually suggesting that PGI should encourage people using this King Crab as an LRM boat? Lasers and missiles are where it shines? Shouldn't lasers and missiles be where the Awesomes, Stalkers and Battlemasters shine? Or the HGN-733P?

I've never seen the King Crab really shine as a laserboat, PPC boat or missile boat. I see a lot of people trying though.

Hit the Deck, on 20 June 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

• give the 000 general -5% ballistic CD, -15% AC/20 CD, and -20% general ballistic heat quirks. This one is created to carry dual AC/20 and the ballistic heat quirk is for the dual AC/20 (big Ghost Heat value) and the occasional 6x AC/2 builds (because PGI has given it 6B for some reason).

They're all created to carry dual AC20, if you mean in terms of lore. Except for the Clanbuster. But there's very little overlap in the quirks needed for the AC2 and the AC20, so this is a bad approach. AC20 needs projectile velocity and range quirks, AC2 needs neither. The only thing they both benefit from is heat and cooldown. If you're not going to give ballistic velocity quirks to the mech you want to carry 2xAC20, I don't know which mech in the game needs velocity quirks more. Same with ballistic range, really.

[Sader325]

All the KGC needs is some basic structure quirks and the removal of the arm armor quirks.

I have 5 of them and they fine with their current quirks and I see no reason to give themselves damage quirks. I've never had trouble putting out damage on any of my KGC.

Give me basic structure quirks forget damage ones

Posting from a phone sucks btw

[Sader325]

Btw my 3 lrm5+a 2xuac5 2 lpl xl360 KGC is a damage monster. Every KGC I have runs an XL360 or 350. These things put out a ridiculous amount of damage if you know what you are doing and don't run a standard like a schmuck

Edited by Sader325, 20 June 2016 - 03:44 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

I don't understand if you're being serious or ironic here. You're actually suggesting that PGI should encourage people using this King Crab as an LRM boat? Lasers and missiles are where it shines? Shouldn't lasers and missiles be where the Awesomes, Stalkers and Battlemasters shine? Or the HGN-733P?

I've never seen the King Crab really shine as a laserboat, PPC boat or missile boat. I see a lot of people trying though.

I mean PGI has given it 4E and 4M but only 2B which makes it to have the most numerous E and M hardpoints. Some people say that we should quirk the least and weakest hardpoints (Koniving et al.) but I say we better quirk its strength in this case.

As KGC is not the greatest 'Mech for brawling, people could use it to carry LRMs instead of SRMs. It's not meant to compete with the other variants, it's just to give people choice and some flavor to the variants.

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

They're all created to carry dual AC20, if you mean in terms of lore. Except for the Clanbuster. But there's very little overlap in the quirks needed for the AC2 and the AC20, so this is a bad approach. AC20 needs projectile velocity and range quirks, AC2 needs neither. The only thing they both benefit from is heat and cooldown. If you're not going to give ballistic velocity quirks to the mech you want to carry 2xAC20, I don't know which mech in the game needs velocity quirks more. Same with ballistic range, really.

Sorry I mixed it up with the HGN and thinking that 0000 carries AC/10.

The reason I didn't give the 000 ballistic speed quirks is because it can do other ballistic builds. So let's just give it AC/20 and not general ballistic projectile speed quirk.

In general, I'd like Gauss and quad UAC/5 to be done on the 000B and 000 does dual AC/20.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 20 June 2016 - 03:53 AM.

[Tarogato]

No, I don't think the King Crab should be buffed, it's already strong enough.

I PRESENT TO THEE, TAROGATO'S ASSAULT POWER LEVEL CHART
BASED ON AN EXTRAORDINARY DEGREE OF SUBJECTIVITY

Buff the chassis below the red line, nerf the chassis above the red line. Hooray balance! \o/

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

A thought occurred to me. A lot of people are complaining because the KDK-3 is the best ballistic boat with no Inner Sphere counterpart. And a lot of people are complaining because the Mauler got its ballistic quirks nerfed now, and they considered it the best IS ballistic boat for builds like 5xAC5 or 4xUAC5.

So I look at the King Crab quirks and I'm wondering if it would be a good thing to buff King Crab ballistics to compete with the KDK-3. Would this result in unwanted power creep? Or would it have little effect due to some characteristic of the King Crab, such as low weapon mounts?

The King Crab quirks look very weird to me, by the way. Never really considered it, because I don't own any of them.

KGC-000 has 6 ballistic hardpoints.

• 10% ballistic cooldown
  
• 10% AC20 cooldown
  
• 15% projectile velocity

KGC-0000 has 2 ballistic hardpoints

• No ballistic quirks

KCG-000B has 4 ballistic hardpoints

• 30% projectile velocity
  
• 5% ballistic cooldown

Now, it seems to me... that it would make more sense to give AC20 quirks to the 0000, which only has 2 ballistic hardpoints. I'd give the 0000 good AC20 cooldown, maybe also range and velocity bonus, to compensate for the short-range, slow moving AC20 shells.



The 000 and 000B can run builds like 5xAC5, 4xUAC5, 6xAC2, etc, so they don't really need the AC20 cooldown. They need general cooldown and velocity.

The King Crab is arguably the most iconic ballistic carrier of all IS assault mechs in the game, with more weight dedicated to ballistic weapons than any other IS assault mech. It's also an iconic Clan buster. So I think it would be fitting if it could rival the KDK-3 in a dakka slinging contest. I haven't played it though, so I don't know if this is a realistic and desirable prospect.

Thoughts?

Issue is... buff more stuff, extend powercreep......

We need to rein stuff back in. No Uber Oxides, StareBears, etc. DWF is one of the few Assaults, and probably only 100 tonner that shoudl see some sort of buff, and that would be VERY MINOR mobility love.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 June 2016 - 04:07 AM.

[DarthHias]

I think Tarogato is right, because he presented a chart. Also he´s cool. And he thinks Warhawk is average, and I love the Warhawks for being average and staying so, unaffected by quirks and meta, always being a solid Mech.

[Alistair Winter]

Tarogato, on 20 June 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

No, I don't think the King Crab should be buffed, it's already strong enough.
I PRESENT TO THEE, TAROGATO'S ASSAULT POWER LEVEL CHART
BASED ON AN EXTRAORDINARY DEGREE OF SUBJECTIVITY
Buff the chassis below the red line, nerf the chassis above the red line. Hooray balance! \o/

How would you nerf the chassis above the red line to get them down there? Do they all drop down to the red line if you remove quirks?

HGN IIC should have 4 squares tho, for realz. Dat 2xUAC10, son!

And Warhawk probably went up a square or two after the rescaling.

[Sjorpha]

I don't want more power creep.

The King Crab was an excellent mech at release, very powerful in itself without strong quirks.

I'd much rather too powerful mechs be brought down to King Crab level instead.

Edit: Tarogatos chart looks about right.

Edited by Sjorpha, 20 June 2016 - 04:15 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

DarthHias, on 20 June 2016 - 04:10 AM, said:

I think Tarogato is right, because he presented a chart. Also he´s cool. And he thinks Warhawk is average, and I love the Warhawks for being average and staying so, unaffected by quirks and meta, always being a solid Mech.

I've got bad news for you. Warhawk are going to be better than average, if they weren't already.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 20 June 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

No, I don't think the King Crab should be buffed, it's already strong enough.


I PRESENT TO THEE, TAROGATO'S ASSAULT POWER LEVEL CHART
BASED ON AN EXTRAORDINARY DEGREE OF SUBJECTIVITY





Buff the chassis below the red line, nerf the chassis above the red line. Hooray balance! \o/

I'm curious do you have anything that breaks them down by variant? For instance, I believe you about the Zeus, though I seem to get significantly better performance from my 6S than the rest. (whereas I don't think there is a "good" variant of the HGN or VTR ..... unless one has stealth snuck in).

Anyhow, I guess I would love to see how each mechs variants stack up.(BTW, subjective, made up or not, ... probably more accurate than what PGI has on their dart board of destiny)

Also, in your rankings...is the KDK realyl that strong...or the KDK3..... if so where do the rest of the Care Bears stack?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 June 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 June 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

I'm curious do you have anything that breaks them down by variant? For instance, I believe you about the Zeus, though I seem to get significantly better performance from my 6S than the rest. (whereas I don't think there is a "good" variant of the HGN or VTR ..... unless one has stealth snuck in).

Also, in your rankings...is the KDK realyl that strong...or the KDK3..... if so where do the rest of the Care Bears stack?

Well, I did a calculation based on about 15 people's mech stats. Basically, average damage divided by mech tonnage and all weighted such that 80 tonners and 100 tonners are compared equally. But then I just said, "screw this" and just started drawing little blue boxes according to my hearts desire until it felt about right. So no, I don't have a per-variant version, nor do I have intimate enough knowledge to rate them individually, it's just personal feeling.

I rated the chassis "at their best", imho. So... yes, KDK-3, AS7-S, etc.

If I had to rate the other carebears, I'd put the SB as one click below the Atlas, the -1, -2, and -5 as two clicks below, and the -4 as three clicks below. But I'd probably need a finer resolution, because that puts some of them lower than I'd like compared to other chassis. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bishop Steiner, on 20 June 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

Anyhow, I guess I would love to see how each mechs variants stack up.(BTW, subjective, made up or not, ... probably more accurate than what PGI has on their dart board of destiny)

makes me sad because I know it's true. =/

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 04:12 AM, said:

How would you nerf the chassis above the red line to get them down there? Do they all drop down to the red line if you remove quirks?

HGN IIC should have 4 squares tho, for realz. Dat 2xUAC10, son!

And Warhawk probably went up a square or two after the rescaling.

Yeah, I'd probably pump the HGN-IIC up a square (maybe two) after the quirks next patch. Same for the WHK post-rescale.

MAL - I would immediately remove the -MX90 cooldown quirk that PGI added in this patch.
AS7 - I'd remove the velocity and heat gen quirks from the -S.
BNC - I'd remove the duration quirk from the -3M.
KDK - I'd remove all quirks from the -3.

Then I'd let it sit for a month and see how the global performance metrics look before making further adjustments. Something that I feel PGI simply doesn't do.

I don't know how to buff the VTR, HGN, ZEU, or AWS, I don't know those chassis well enough to give them what they deserve.

Edited by Tarogato, 20 June 2016 - 04:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

[/list]I don't understand if you're being serious or ironic here. You're actually suggesting that PGI should encourage people using this King Crab as an LRM boat? Lasers and missiles are where it shines? Shouldn't lasers and missiles be where the Awesomes, Stalkers and Battlemasters shine? Or the HGN-733P?

I've never seen the King Crab really shine as a laserboat, PPC boat or missile boat. I see a lot of people trying though.

Why not? Not all Krab variants have to rely on ballistics. Shoehorning a chassis into one class of weapons build is what got the Maulers burned in the upcoming quirk change.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 20 June 2016 - 04:37 AM, said:

If I had to rate the other carebears, I'd put the SB as one click below the Atlas, the -1, -2, and -5 as two clicks below, and the -4 as three clicks below. But I'd probably need a finer resolution, because that puts some of them lower than I'd like compared to other chassis. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Boy...my poor KDK4 StinkBear get's no respect...... I'm cool with that though... hopefully it flies under the radar enough to escape the impending Kodiak Nerfpocalypse. I doubt it though... when the executioner comes for the StareBear, I have a feeling the whole family is going to end up on the chopping block with it.

[Alistair Winter]

El Bandito, on 20 June 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Why not? Not all Krab variants have to rely on ballistics. Shoehorning a chassis into one class of weapons build is what got the Maulers burned in the upcoming quirk change.

I think that's kind of different though. I generally agree that it's bad when PGI tries to shoehorn a chassis into a class of weapons, but it depends on the chassis and the weapons. For the Mauler, Highlander or Shadowhawk, it's a bad thing. Because those have both the hardpoints and the background to carry mixed loadouts. It annoys me when PGI tries to discourage use of SRMs on the Raven, for example, because they have it pegged as a laser sniper.

I'm not saying PGI should discourage use of lasers or missiles on the King Crab. But I don't think they should facilitate non-ballistic builds on the King Crab any more than non-missile builds on the CPLT-C1. It's ok if they peg the Catapult as a missile carrier, really. And it's ok for me if they peg the King Crab as a ballistic carrier.