37 replies to this topic

[Marmon Rzohr]

Mole, on 20 June 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

Yes yes, KDK-3 OP, etc. blah blah blah. Keep calm and whine on. Seriously. KDK-3 is not OP.

Now I understand if you want to avoid a heavy-handed PGI-patent nerfhammer, but it's fairly beyond reasonable doubt that the Kodiak is the most versatile assault mech in the game. So as it stands it is OP.

Now, honestly I don't think it needs to be nerfed carelessly because all assault mechs are kind of in a ****** place in the meta at the moment. Maybe there is no need for a nerf at all. Both the ERPPC+Gauss build and the 4xUAC10 builds will likely be affected by the new heat system.

Pariah Devalis, on 20 June 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

Mauler with 4 UAC5 = 20 PPFLD, twice per second if you doubletap. 40 damage in two packets of 20 damage. 36 tons of guns. 600m range, fast projectile.

KDK-3 with Quad UAC10 = 13.333 PPFLD, in three "packets", and perhaps half a second salvo if you double tap. ~60 damage in about 4-5 packets of 13.333 damage. 40 tons of guns. 540m range, medium speed projectile.


I see nothing wrong here. Whatsoever. I'm actually still not sure why the Mauler even has any quirks to begin with. Fully front loaded ballistics are one of the IS advantages over Clans.

You seem to ignore that whole second best peeking profile only after the stalker, better hitboxes than the Mauler and the 80 damage in what less than 1 sec ?
Compare that to laser vomit alphas (which are already pretty ridiculous).

It's also very interesting how the Mauler doesn't get picked over the Kodiak for long and mid range firepower in the MWOWC matches. They all must suck at judging mechs !

Pariah Devalis, on 20 June 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

50% of match score on the winning team is determined by raw damage. If you smear your damage across mechs and don't kill people efficiently, you artificially inflate your match score. Inefficient builds throw up huge damage numbers, while efficient ones kill targets as cleanly as possible, resulting in lower damage values.

So... no. EOM score values don't mean jack. All it shows is that someone managed to farm damage to a greater or lesser degree than their allies.

This kind of reasoning is very wrong. Given that pilots with good aim get higher damage numbers is it than pilots with bad aim, we can hardly say it's "wasted damage". Also if you want to look at one stat to judge perfomance, damage is the one to look at. It takes very exceptional situations for 800 damage not to be "a good game".

I mean there's a reason why the better the player the better the averaged damage per game.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 20 June 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[m2wester]

Mole, on 20 June 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

I personally don't feel threatened when confronted with a quad UAC/10 Kodiak. At least not any more threatened than I do when being confronted by any other 'mech. In fact, I can pretty regularly waltz up to a quad UAC/10 Kodiak in my Atlas and smash his face in and he can't do jack about it. I suppose we should just nerf the Atlas too. How dare a 100 ton 'mech, the heaviest of the heavy, bring more raw firepower than lighter 'mechs? A travesty, I say!

You are aware that the Atlas S will get significant nerfs, right?

[Triordinant]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 June 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

...and? That doesn't make it any more lethal. It's wasteful. You know what else racks huge damage numbers? LRM boats. Very few people agree that LRM boats are powerful or even good. Not saying the Dakkabear is bad, but equating large pub queue match scores with degrees of OP-ness is flawed logic.

It might surprise you to learn that LRM boats in the right hands can actually be very lethal in the QuickPlay solo queue. If you spectate the players there you can see their gunnery and piloting skills aren't exactly Top Gun so throwing the most damage in the general direction of the enemy is the winning formula in a fight between uncoordinated teams with maybe 1 or 2 good players on each side.

[z3a1ot]

Another thread that will look something like this

[Pariah Devalis]

Marmon Rzohr, on 20 June 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

This kind of reasoning is very wrong. Given that pilots with good aim get higher damage numbers is it than pilots with bad aim, we can hardly say it's "wasted damage". Also if you want to look at one stat to judge perfomance, damage is the one to look at. It takes very exceptional situations for 800 damage not to be "a good game".

I mean there's a reason why the better the player the better the averaged damage per game.

I invite you to peruse my youtube channel. As a pilot who regularly gets top match score games, even in potato tier 1, you'd see extremely clearly that as soon as I switch to a gauss based mech, I'm still carrying most of the team but doing so at about half the damage output. My match score usually drops to third or fourth on the team, yet my total kill count, KMDD and Solo Kills remain about the same. Damage efficiency. It's a ***** when trying to farm up CBills or gain XP.

It's the difference between needing 300 damage to kill a mech and needing just 150 damage to kill a mech.

Triordinant, on 20 June 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

It might surprise you to learn that LRM boats in the right hands can actually be very lethal in the QuickPlay solo queue. If you spectate the players there you can see their gunnery and piloting skills aren't exactly Top Gun so throwing the most damage in the general direction of the enemy is the winning formula in a fight between uncoordinated teams with maybe 1 or 2 good players on each side.

It does surprise me that people continue to be idiotic, show zero situational awareness, and constantly play to the enemies' advantages, which are literally the only times an LRM boat should ever be of any use. With the possible exception of dropping on Polar Highlands, of course. Against any group of players who know that terrain breaks locks, stops missiles, and are aggressive enough to get under LRM minimum range, LRMs are a joke. At worst, a massive annoyance.

However, again, that doesn't mean the weapon is OP nor missile boats are OP or even good. It just means it's less terrible than those you are using it against.

[Triordinant]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 June 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

However, again, that doesn't mean the weapon is OP nor missile boats are OP or even good. It just means it's less terrible than those you are using it against.

And the KDK-3 is the least terrible of them all.

[Mystere]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 20 June 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

People just aren't used to do not want a clan assault mech that is a threat.

FTFY.

[Dawnstealer]

Oh man - no: Kodiak is a glass cannon. Don't facetank it, but it's one big CT: they drop FAST. Granted, they can drop you even faster if you're stupid, but just gang up on them, aim center body, and they're a non-factor.

[jjm1]

Some people don't know what OP means I guess.

So at what point is a mech actually OP then, an average of 12 kills per match? 2000 damage? 150 point alpha @ 1.5 efficiency? Or is it just when its P2W status expires.

[Khereg]

Phra, on 20 June 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

The fact every single WC team has 2 KDK3 in their lineup leads me to think they are the stronger side.

They definitely are on the stronger side, especially for the comp scene, but not always for the reason commonly believed...

The 4 UAC10 does put up high damage numbers,, but it suffers from the "spray and pray" damage spread that other clan UAC's suffer from. Try to run it in a heat-efficient manner (by firing two at a time instead of alpha-ing all four at once) and the amount of face time required and the ability for your opponent to roll the damage goes way up, especially among more skilled players. This weakens it a good bit from what the raw damage numbers may be telling you.

I've seen an alternate build of dual gauss and 2 UAC10, which doesn't suffer from ghost heat, lowers the alpha damage from 80 to 70 (assuming a double-tap of the UAC's), but concentrates that damage onto a single component much better. IMHO, in the hands of a skilled KDK-3 pilot, that's the build you should be more afraid of. The sustained dps suffers compared to the 4 UAC10 build, but it puts out so much damage to a single component that this isn't often a problem.

It may not have enough ammo to be ideal in a regular match, but in the 8v8 WC tournament, it's been wrecking face for us.

Edited by Khereg, 20 June 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 20 June 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Kodiak 3 is OP. Not terribly, but it is. Until tuesday, the Mauler is too. As to KDKs, you don't need weapon quirks when you can high mount quad clan uac10s or gausses. But with that amount of firepower getting generous mobility quirks makes no sense. Among clan mechs, only the executioner got similar ones, but that poor thing deserves them for all it's shortcomings. Actually the Dire could get such ones too. KDK3 is already a killer when met face to face, there is no reason to make it harder to get a jump on it from the side. Giant CT is a bad thing, but only when you can actually aim at it, not when you're getting constant ongoing screen shake and particles covering your screen the moment your enemy peeks out, because he's got high mounts and quirked agility to get to you first unless you're too small of a mech to be in an immediate threat to it.

In competent group and decent T1 matches KDK may not stand out really much. In pug tiers 5, 4, 3, 2 it does. In 'bad MM 3+2+1' matches it does to. In low tier group matches it does as well. That's about 95% of the matches going on we're talking here.

For something to be OP, it doesn't need to be waaaaaaaaaay better than anything else. Just better.

EDIT:



Completely irrelevant argument man. A guy has a mech about 50% faster than yours, with over twice the range you have and with higher hardpoints. If he failed to kill/avoid you before you reached your effective range (270 meters!) in a FATLAS, you deserve to be able to smash his face with ease. Do you claim a mech starts to be OP only once it get's Atlas firepower, but with better range and hardpoints?

You want to complain about a mech with ZERO weapon quirks and because it is faster and has higher hardpoints. Let us examine these in detail.

1. It has ZERO weapons quirks.

2. In order to get the quad uac-10's, you need to first downgrade your engine to a standard for the side torso space and then downgrade its size for the tonnage. By the time you finish all that (depending on how much ammo you want to bring), it is almost as slow as a Dire Wolf. So, if a Dire Wolf is 50% faster than what you are driving, huh? Try upgrading instead of downgrading its engine.

3. So high hardpoints make mechs OP now? In that case, I can think of a bunch of IS mechs that are also OP: Jagarmech, Blackjack, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Trebuchet, Hunchback, the list goes on and on. High mech hardpoints has been a recruiting selling point for IS units for a long time now. So when the Clans finally get one of our own, you cry out "OP!".

Done embarrassing yourself?

[Pariah Devalis]

Actually...

Jep, on 20 June 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

2. In order to get the quad uac-10's, you need to first downgrade your engine to a standard for the side torso space and then downgrade its size for the tonnage. By the time you finish all that (depending on how much ammo you want to bring), it is almost as slow as a Dire Wolf. So, if a Dire Wolf is 50% faster than what you are driving, huh? Try upgrading instead of downgrading its engine.

A Clan XL fits fine. Run an XL350, myself.

[STEF_]

CK16, on 20 June 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Kdk-3 has no weapons quirks....and the quirks it has are pretty tiny compared to many....

You call these....tiny?
ACCELERATION RATE: 35.00 % DECELERATION RATE: 35.00 % TURN RATE: 25.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 35.00 % ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (CT): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 10.00

Tiny? seriously?

HGC-2C waited more than 6 months to see something.


(but don't worry KDK will be nerfed, but not now: when it'll come out for c-bills)

Dawnstealer, on 20 June 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Oh man - no: Kodiak is a glass cannon. Don't facetank it, but it's one big CT: they drop FAST. Granted, they can drop you even faster if you're stupid, but just gang up on them, aim center body, and they're a non-factor.

can you tell us why HGC-2C didn't received the same treatment?
It moves like a mummy and with huge CT too.

How's that?

[Bud Crue]

Jep, on 20 June 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

You want to complain about a mech with ZERO weapon quirks and because it is faster and has higher hardpoints. Let us examine these in detail.

1. It has ZERO weapons quirks.

2. In order to get the quad uac-10's, you need to first downgrade your engine to a standard for the side torso space and then downgrade its size for the tonnage. By the time you finish all that (depending on how much ammo you want to bring), it is almost as slow as a Dire Wolf. So, if a Dire Wolf is 50% faster than what you are driving, huh? Try upgrading instead of downgrading its engine.

3. So high hardpoints make mechs OP now? In that case, I can think of a bunch of IS mechs that are also OP: Jagarmech, Blackjack, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Trebuchet, Hunchback, the list goes on and on. High mech hardpoints has been a recruiting selling point for IS units for a long time now. So when the Clans finally get one of our own, you cry out "OP!".

Done embarrassing yourself?

Not sure if you were being serious with your build complaint:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a1dd02b12ac23dc

[CK16]

Stefka Kerensky, on 20 June 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

You call these....tiny?
ACCELERATION RATE: 35.00 % DECELERATION RATE: 35.00 % TURN RATE: 25.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 35.00 % ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (CT): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 10.00

Tiny? seriously?

HGC-2C waited more than 6 months to see something.


(but don't worry KDK will be nerfed, but not now: when it'll come out for c-bills)


can you tell us why HGC-2C didn't received the same treatment?
It moves like a mummy and with huge CT too.

How's that?

For the most part yes.....compared to the mile long list of quirks IS mechs get on a regular basis....and most are way over done, that little bit of structure is almost worthless.....so yea tiny quirks....

[Antares102]

My comment:

Everbody who says the KDK-3 is OP just need to suck it up that it is the first overall usefull Clan assault.
What makes the KDK-3 so good is IS style modification options with the highest possible mounted ballistic slots.
Even IF you take away ALL it's quirks (which I do not argue for them to stay) little will change.
We still have IS style modification options with the highest possible mounted ballistic slots.
If KDK3-wrecked you in certain situations they will still wreck you without quirks.

For the Mauler nerfs I would actually argue that the Maulers were OK before the nerfs and nerfs weren't necessary.
But since PGI just do what they do without a rational to understand the change... well.. we have nerfed Maulers now.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

um ye. It is at least a lil OPed.
The nerf will be there when MC availaibility. WE ALL KNOW THIS. PGI doing that for ages....

[Scout Derek]

Going to close this thread as there's absolutely NOTHING positive about this thread, other than people Bashing the OP and the OP trying to argue back will = Suspensions and warnings for either the posters, the OP, or both. I advise you sit back and cool off a bit Titannium.