176 replies to this topic

[Chados]

Jables McBarty, on 30 June 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

I stepped away from reading this thread a couple days ago, but I've been reading in reverse order and stumbled upon this gem...



Now Chados, I read your responses and I understand that you run exclusively heavies, but this is....this is just ignorant. There's not a single IS light that I've run without ES and FF.

Here's my standard Oxide Build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...06fd25cf30ee5da

You'll notice that it's a 32-damage alpha. No Artemis so there's always some spread. Max tube count is 20 for a 40-damage alpha (since you can't fit 2 SRM6s on the CT).

Even if your Catapult is running only 6 armor rear ST, it has a total of 48hp (30 base + 6 armor + 12 AS). The Oxide can't kill that with one hit. If you are getting one-shotted, equip Case and remove your XL because it can only be ammo explosions that are doing the work.

Yes, the IIC can do a 72-point alpha, but they need to equip a smaller engine to fit it and have zero quirks. Relatively easy to destroy. Also they can't afford to equip Artemis, and clan SRM6s natively have a very wide spread. Not saying it's not a priority target, but it is definitely counterable.

Ah. Another Jennerpologist, heading right to ad hominem attacks (calling me "ignorant," nice) because his or her griefer toy got righteously nerfed. Want a little pepper with that salt, my friend?

Look, I agree the J2C can be taken out. If you can hit one. Which now, you can. And it's nice to axe one with SSRMs even if we are limited to SSRM2 in the IS. But when they are behind you and nail you with that 72 point alpha, you're done. No 35 ton mech ought to be able to pack a 72-point alpha strike. Even the Butterbee, in full-on splat configuration with all hardpoints accounted for, is running at just under 71. And it's 30 tons heavier, with no significant offensive quirks. A1 Cats packing 6xASRM6 are at 75.6 and are maxed out as well. In what universe does it make even the remotest amount of sense that a bug-sized mech moving at highway speed can haul that kind of firepower? And any Jenner can get behind you faster than a standard-engine SRM Catapult can turn to keep up. I run 15 armor in rear torsos, typically. I can survive a reasonable ambush by your usual Locust or Raven. But life getting pounded by 72 points of SRMs in the back and rear side, in a mech that's all torso anyway, is, as Thomas Hobbes said, nasty, brutish, and short even if your mech is fresh. And you assume a fresh mech. You get hit once or twice, then some nimrod in a tiny Jenner gets behind you and stays there, it soaks the fun out of the game like a sponge because you're insta-dead and you can do precisely zip about it. It is worse than getting ranged by some drooling neckbeard in a Dire Wolf with gauss rifles and Clan ERLL from 1500 meters away. At least against a sniper you can duck behind cover and wait him out, or if you get lucky and get an indirect lock, lurm him a little and make him hide.

I'd love to drop the XL and add CASE gear. A 65 tonner hasn't got the tonnage if you want to bring any weapons or ammo for missiles-even SRMs need ammo. On standard engine heavies or assaults I do try to bring it, and I as a rule don't run XLs on the Zeus though you have to on Victors, and those are my two assault chassis. On XL heavies, why bother? You're dead from any shot-through torso anyway. When we get the LFE, if we ever do, I'll certainly be trying to upgrade for CASE equipment.

I don't think your Oxide build necessarily is unreasonable. I do think that the Oxide's durability quirks are unreasonable. Jenners shouldn't tank like a Cataphract. I thought giving it a "tiny" movement archetype when it puts out the firepower of a stock Marauder 3R at waaaay more speed was ridiculous, and moving it up to "small" was a good idea. And I thought its size also was unreasonably small. The size and movement problems have been addressed and at least you stand a chance of hitting one now. Part of the problem now, in all seriousness, is that Jenner hitboxes were borked from Day One and the larger size means that you can CT most Jenners from all aspects. And the resize has IS Jenners paying for the power-creep sins of their Clanner brethren.

I don't mind the Locust buffs. I've said it before. Let 'em be tiny and fast. They're one-shot death traps that can't kill you in a single alpha strike. With them, it's the death of a thousand cuts. If I have any teammates anywhere close I can live long enough to get a bug-zapper on my side assuming he doesn't hurt me worse than the Locust trying to get him off me. But that tradeoff, I can live with. Even if they get behind you and stay there, they have to orbit for awhile to do hardcore damage unless you're already cored. Sooner or later I'm gonna get turned into him just enough to get an SSRM lock and then it's good night, nurse. You fix a Jenner so it's just an annoying little pest instead of an overpowered 55-tonner masquerading as a light, then I won't complain if it's made small again.

Edited by Chados, 02 July 2016 - 03:39 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Chados, on 02 July 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

Look, I agree the J2C can be taken out. If you can hit one. Which now, you can. And it's nice to axe one with SSRMs even if we are limited to SSRM2 in the IS. But when they are behind you and nail you with that 72 point alpha, you're done. No 35 ton mech ought to be able to pack a 72-point alpha strike. Even the Butterbee, in full-on splat configuration with all hardpoints accounted for, is running at just under 71. And it's 30 tons heavier, with no significant offensive quirks. A1 Cats packing 6xASRM6 are at 75.6 and are maxed out as well. In what universe does it make even the remotest amount of sense that a bug-sized mech moving at highway speed can haul that kind of firepower? And any Jenner can get behind you faster than a standard-engine SRM Catapult can turn to keep up. I run 15 armor in rear torsos, typically. I can survive a reasonable ambush by your usual Locust or Raven. But life getting pounded by 72 points of SRMs in the back and rear side, in a mech that's all torso anyway, is, as Thomas Hobbes said, nasty, brutish, and short even if your mech is fresh. And you assume a fresh mech. You get hit once or twice, then some nimrod in a tiny Jenner gets behind you and stays there, it soaks the fun out of the game like a sponge because you're insta-dead and you can do precisely zip about it. It is worse than getting ranged by some drooling neckbeard in a Dire Wolf with gauss rifles and Clan ERLL from 1500 meters away. At least against a sniper you can duck behind cover and wait him out, or if you get lucky and get an indirect lock, lurm him a little and make him hide.

Just curious? How much ammo does that build carry? How fast does it go? How many alpha's can it dish out? How close to you do they have to get to you to limit the spread? Are you alone? Do you have sesimic sensor equipped?

All important questions that negate most of your argument... I know the answers do you?

[Nightshade24]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 July 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Must you always write an essay to reply in every thread?

Anyway, your numbers are wrong. The LPL deals 7.15 DPS after quirks and module (I left out the skill tree since I can't remember the value). The MPL deals 4.26 DPS, the MGs deal 3.84. So it's 7.15 vs. 8.1. Advantage to the LCT-1V with MPL+4xMG in DPS, but the LPL is so short in burn it's pragmatically un-spreadable. The only portion of the other build that's qualitatively the same is the MPL, the MGs will go everywhere. At best, it becomes a wash on that single component assuming your target is not a potato.

But...the LPL can also begin this engagement sooner. It doesn't have to risk as much to start dealing that damage. And, when played properly, it doesn't just poke occasionally; it pokes constantly.

So, absolute advantage? LPL, every time.

Not really an essay with only 2 groups of numbers/ equations and 1 small paragraph. In fact most people wrote as much as I have, I just hit the enter key more often and throw random filler such as numbers in.

I didn't take modules into the equation (only quirks and DPS) (I also left out the skill tree since I keep forgetting skill trees exist)
However i do doubt that LPL is 7.15 DPS with what you've stated.
2.81 DPS straight of the bat.
50% quirk of the Locust 1V is present improving it by 50%, 12% boost is from module, and 5% from the mech elite status.

Alrighty. According to PGI_Buckton you add the % up and then apply. So it stackss to 67% boost to 2.81 DPS which equals 4.6927 DPS.
67% of 2.81 DPS is 1.8827.
Or without quick fire... 2.909474 DPS

Can you show you working? I may be making a mistake. (however i am not mistakened for the MG's so that raises me some confusion...)

Also not sure about you but MG's go quite straight with me unless I am trying to snipe with close range MG's which is never practical.

[Jon Gotham]

Xetelian, on 22 June 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

LCT is still incredibly fragile and the 1E was always a good ride compared to the others.

I just took my LCT 1V (P) out for a little testing and enjoyed it, not as much as I do my cheetah

Fragile??? Tiny hit boxes and super speed AND quirks = tank as hell.

[Flutterguy]

Nightshade24, on 02 July 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Not really an essay with only 2 groups of numbers/ equations and 1 small paragraph. In fact most people wrote as much as I have, I just hit the enter key more often and throw random filler such as numbers in.

I didn't take modules into the equation (only quirks and DPS) (I also left out the skill tree since I keep forgetting skill trees exist)
However i do doubt that LPL is 7.15 DPS with what you've stated.
2.81 DPS straight of the bat.
50% quirk of the Locust 1V is present improving it by 50%, 12% boost is from module, and 5% from the mech elite status.

Alrighty. According to PGI_Buckton you add the % up and then apply. So it stackss to 67% boost to 2.81 DPS which equals 4.6927 DPS.
67% of 2.81 DPS is 1.8827.
Or without quick fire... 2.909474 DPS

Can you show you working? I may be making a mistake. (however i am not mistakened for the MG's so that raises me some confusion...)

Also not sure about you but MG's go quite straight with me unless I am trying to snipe with close range MG's which is never practical.

Unless it's been changed recently, it's a cooldown reduction. So 50% cdr is 2x fire rate and 67% cdr is 3x fire rate.

[Wintersdark]

Flutterguy, on 02 July 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Unless it's been changed recently, it's a cooldown reduction. So 50% cdr is 2x fire rate and 67% cdr is 3x fire rate.

This.

It's often misunderstood, but cooldown bonuses reduce the cooldown time. People assume it's a flat DPS increase, but that's incorrect - and it's why increasing cooldown quirks become exponentially more valuable.

[Clownwarlord]

No

[Darian DelFord]

Jon Gotham, on 02 July 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

Fragile??? Tiny hit boxes and super speed AND quirks = tank as hell.

Sorry but an Atlas can survive 3 Dual AC 20's to the CT......... How many can a locust tank?

Thanks bye bye

[Trauglodyte]

I'm trying to Darian my way into learning how to be a better Light pilot. The Firestarter feels better, now, than it did before. But, I always struggled with the combination of speed, JJs, and twitchness it had. That it is bigger makes me feel like I'm in more control. I still and always have, since the Phoenix release, loved my Locust and am loving my Oxide Light. I fully admit, though, that a great Jenner pilot will eat me alive. I keep feasting on really bad pilots, though, because they tend to pack more heat than they can utilize on such a small target. Then again, the Locust is what all other pilots have enjoyed for far too long.

Underlines for emphasis on key points that will undoubtedly be missed

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 July 2016 - 10:37 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Chados, on 02 July 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

Ah. Another Jennerpologist, heading right to ad hominem attacks (calling me "ignorant," nice) because his or her griefer toy got righteously nerfed. Want a little pepper with that salt, my friend?

The point is that other guy you attacked is right: you are ignorant.

You admitted that you have never piloted light mechs (you talk about something you do not know)
You think that the Huginn is a good light
You think that the Huginn improved after the patch (his general missile quirk got reduced while the SRM4 quirk wasn't raised so it was a nerf)

Should I go on?

Do me a favour and fill in this form so one of the light pilots may help you



Edit: To be precise - the Oxide was OP. However, the Oxide is not the class

Edited by Bush Hopper, 02 July 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[Chados]

Keep on crying those salty tears, Bush Hopper. Your griefer toy still got the nerfhammer, and one can only hope it suffers as long as the Catapult did...or better yet, the Victor.

[Y E O N N E]

Nightshade24, on 02 July 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Can you show you working? I may be making a mistake. (however i am not mistakened for the MG's so that raises me some confusion...)

Certainly.

So, the energy cool-down quirk is 50% and the module adds another 12%. We know that the result is additive, right? So our multiplier can be found with:

1.00 - (0.50 + 0.12) = 0.38 (Note: I erroneously entered a smaller number (0.37) before...oops on my part)

To find total cool-down time, we have:

0.38 * 3.25 seconds = 1.235

Now, there's also a laser duration quirk of 50%. For an LPL, we do:

0.5 * 0.67 seconds = 0.335 seconds.

Our total cycle time is the sum of burn time and cool-down time.

0.335 seconds + 1.235 seconds = 1.57 seconds.

Divide damage by total cycle to get DPS:

11 damage / 1.57 seconds = 7.01 DPS

That's all for the LPL. For the MPL:

Cool-down = 0.38 * 3.00 = 1.14 seconds
Burn = 0.5 * 0.6 = 0.3 seconds
Cycle = 1.14 + 0.3 = 1.44 seconds
DPS = 6 / 1.44 = 4.17 DPS


For MGs, they fire at a rate of 10 rounds per second, each round dealing 0.08 damage. The quirk for MGs is 20%, so it's now 12 rounds per second. DPS is simply the product of the round damage and number of rounds per second which, in this case, is 0.96. We have four, so the total MG output is 3.84 DPS. Add that to the previously derived 4.17 DPS for the MPL, and we get 8.01 total DPS.

So, the LPL is 7.01 DPS, the MPL+4xMG is 8.01 DPS, and in both cases that is prior to skill tree effects. Skill tree will only influence the lasers; there's nothing that speeds up MG rate of fire outside of quirks. If you want to add in skills, then just add the percentage over 100 to the formula for finding that cool-down reduction multiplier. It won't change the story, really. The LPL is still comparable enough that it is the superior option due to remaining applicable across a larger set of range brackets.

Also, I guarantee that I will splat you if you try to use that MG Locust on me and you don't have backup. That's the advantage of the LPL: it does not need backup to distract for you.

[Darian DelFord]

Chados, on 02 July 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

Keep on crying those salty tears, Bush Hopper. Your griefer toy still got the nerfhammer, and one can only hope it suffers as long as the Catapult did...or better yet, the Victor.

You will have to excuse me on this one..... but the "nerfhammer" as you call it for the catapult did not make it a magnet for damage.

[Darian DelFord]

Trauglodyte, on 02 July 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm trying to Darian my way into learning how to be a better Light pilot.

Curious?

Trauglodyte, on 02 July 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

The Firestarter feels better, now, than it did before. But, I always struggled with the combination of speed, JJs, and twitchness it had. That it is bigger makes me feel like I'm in more control. I still and always have, since the Phoenix release, loved my Locust and am loving my Oxide Light. I fully admit, though, that a great Jenner pilot will eat me alive. I keep feasting on really bad pilots, though, because they tend to pack more heat than they can utilize on such a small target. Then again, the Locust is what all other pilots have enjoyed for far too long.

Underlines for emphasis on key points that will undoubtedly be missed

The one advantage that the FS and Wolf hound have over the Jenner and the Raven is the ability to torso twist sooooo much better. The speed is the only thing that keeps lights alive. Without it we are smoldering slags of metal. If a Jenner is eating you alive then you are doing something wrong. Granted I do not know the context I am assuming locust vs Jenner... currently there really is not a contest unless you allow the Jenner to get a full burn on your CT. A locust 3M or 1e can CT a jenner in 3 alphas much quirker than the Jenner can... and lets face it... CT'ing a Jenner is not that tough

[Y E O N N E]

Trauglodyte, on 02 July 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Then again, the Locust is what all other pilots have enjoyed for far too long.

Err, no. The Locust cannot generally brawl well. Too squishy. It pokes well and that's basically it. You have to play it like a faster, squishier Cicada. The only time it can really brawl well is if the rest of the team is also committed to the fight. Doing well when the enemy is distracted is not exactly unique to the Locust.

[Chados]

Darian DelFord, on 02 July 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

You will have to excuse me on this one..... but the "nerfhammer" as you call it for the catapult did not make it a magnet for damage.

I excuse you. But it did. Those VCRs on the ears? Yuge damage magnet. There's a giant salt thread on here about it. Those are gone now. And there was much rejoicing.

Oh, and Yeonne...primo job of Locust driving tonight on HPG. Nice work. I legged a Jenner up on the platform a couple minutes before you got me (I was the red PHX-1B) and he jumped off to get away from me and right into the sights of a Mauler with AC5s. LOL.

Edited by Chados, 02 July 2016 - 08:33 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Chados, on 02 July 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

I excuse you. But it did. Those VCRs on the ears? Yuge damage magnet. There's a giant salt thread on here about it. Those are gone now. And there was much rejoicing.

Oh, and Yeonne...primo job of Locust driving tonight on HPG. Nice work. I legged a Jenner up on the platform a couple minutes before you got me (I was the red PHX-1B) and he jumped off to get away from me and right into the sights of a Mauler with AC5s. LOL.

You obviously never found the joy of 3 LPL's on the Catapult C1.....

[adamts01]

Trauglodyte, on 02 July 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

The Firestarter feels better, now, than it did before. But, I always struggled with the combination of speed, JJs, and twitchness it had. That it is bigger makes me feel like I'm in more control.

I think this post explains a lot. This patch pretty much put training wheels on lights. They're easier to drive, but not responsive enough for die hard light pilots.

Darian DelFord, on 01 July 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

But without those crazy turns the locust is toast....

Without crazy turns most lights are toast.

The more I play it, and I've been playing it a TON, the more I think the Locust is right where it should be. I see them as the new LRM of the game. They're gods in the lower tiers but have a hard go of it against good players. I suppose all lights have always been that way though. New players say lights and LRMs are OP and better players bring more tonnage and direct fire. It's just sad PGI caved in to the "Lights OP" crowd, the class was already struggling.

If they're going to keep lights this size, they NEED to give some serious agility to the class. As someone else mentioned, the reason all the light pilots are so bummed is that this nerf didn't need to happen, and as history has shown us it might be years till we get to drive anything but Locusts if we want to play the traditional light role. And that sucks.

[Bobdolemite]

I finally finished the skill trees on my PB, nuff said......


on a side note I would not call it premier, though it is popular at the moment, and its no longer a joke... both of these things are a tad funny and good in my book. A reason to pilot the lightest / fastest mech in the game...... yes please.

Edited by Bobdolemite, 02 July 2016 - 10:20 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Chados, on 02 July 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

Keep on crying those salty tears, Bush Hopper. Your griefer toy still got the nerfhammer, and one can only hope it suffers as long as the Catapult did...or better yet, the Victor.

You know, people like you will still be fodder for lights. Why? You haven't played them. You have no idea how they work and when you named them "griefers" you showed that your situational awareness must be terrible.

Oh and btw, have you finally followed my advice and bought a seismic mod?

Edited by Bush Hopper, 02 July 2016 - 10:58 PM.