26 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Chicken-walkers (aircraft profile)...non-humanoid mechs with narrow front profiles such as Catapult, Crab, Stalker, Timberwolf, Ebon Jag, etc. (edit) had a smaller frontal profile before the re-scale relative to mechs of similar tonnage (excepting perhaps the Catapult). With the re-scale that frontal profile is still smaller and now in some cases the humanoid mechs of similar tonnage are now, in many cases somewhat larger. So with chicken-walkers we have smaller frontal profile and humanoid mechs that are even larger (relatively speaking) than before.

So does this provide chicken walkers with a distinct advantage more than perhaps they enjoyed before the re-scale? In other words: did volumetric rescaling give the aircraft profile/chicken walker style mechs a disproportionate advantage in most game play circumstances than the rescaled humanoid mechs?

Just wondering what folk's impressions are thus far.

Edited for clarity

Edited by Bud Crue, 24 June 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

It has always been that non-humanoid mechs can shield one side of their mech better than the other, but were also worse at even distribution of damage across their entire mech. Conversely, humanoid mechs are far better at spreading the damage across all sections of their mech, but generally worse at fully shielding one side of their mech from fire.

With humanoid mechs being taller than non-humanoid mechs, one must keep in mind that height is not what generally kills mechs. Width is, since the mech layout (torsos and arms) and mode of motion is primarily along a horizontal axis, not a vertical one. One does not generally "over shoot" a target mech. They usually miss to the sides of it.

Given most of the humanoid mechs that got bigger only slightly became wider (if at all) and mostly just taller, I see minimal impact to that rule as far as the humanoids go. When it comes to the nonhumanoids, the only ones that really had a change to their damage spreadability would be the NVA, CPLT, and arguably the Jenners, as they had a fairly significant size change in both the horizontal and vertical axis.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 June 2016 - 07:07 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Legs have nothing to do with it. Thats just a coincidence. As for if they are at an advantage? They've always been harder to shield with arms, something the humanoid shaped mechs did much better. So I have my doubts that it is an advantage.

[Hit the Deck]

You go humanoid only if you want to be tall, something that doesn't really have a purpose in MWO as far as I know unless you want to be able to shoot from behind a teammate.

[Bud Crue]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 June 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

It has always been that non-humanoid mechs can shield one side of their mech better than the other, but were also worse at even distribution of damage across their entire mech. Conversely, humanoid mechs are far better at spreading the damage across all sections of their mech, but generally worse at fully shielding one side of their mech from fire. With humanoid mechs being taller than non-humanoid mechs, one must keep in mind that height is not what generally kills mechs. Width is, since the mech layout (torsos and arms) and mode of motion is primarily along a horizontal axis, not a vertical one.

Rouken Vordermark, on 24 June 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Legs have nothing to do with it. Thats just a coincidence. As for if they are at an advantage? They've always been harder to shield with arms, something the humanoid shaped mechs did much better. So I have my doubts that it is an advantage.

Sorry, my error with the chicken walker designation. I am focusing on the non-humanoid mechs with narrow front profiles like like the Catapult, Crab, Stalker, Timber, etc.

To my way of playing I seem to have a lot longer lifespan in most non-humanoid mechs and staying on target during that lifespan by just wobbling rather than twisting. To my way of thinking that smaller profile of the non-humanoid mechs which allows this was an advantage before the rescale and is still, but has this advantage (if you buy that it is an advantage) increased as a result of the rescale?

Edited by Bud Crue, 24 June 2016 - 07:14 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 24 June 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

You go humanoid only if you want to be tall, something that doesn't really have a purpose in MWO as far as I know unless you want to be able to shoot from behind a teammate.

or want good shield arms (usually. Some humanoids, have crap shield arms too). Which is pretty handy on mechs like BLRs, BNCs, etc.... as well as their higher hardpoints.

Of course, sometimes you get hybrids like the Cataphract with erect upright torso humanoid arms and walker legs.

Walker legs do tend to lend to a shorter mech, overall, due to posture, but really it does come down more to humanoid torso vs fuselage. (After all, the Jenner has a fuselage torso with humanoid legs)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 June 2016 - 07:16 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

I vote Chicken, because chicken and waffles sound so good right now.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

or want good shield arms. Which is pretty handy on mechs like BLRs, BNCs, etc.... as well as their higher hardpoints.

Generally thinner side profiles, too. Body wise.

Is your mech beach body ready?



(Credits to Spooky! http://spooky777.dev...beach-355921271 )

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Luffy, on 24 June 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

I vote Chicken, because chicken and waffles sound so good right now.

one of the oddest food combos in the world, until you actually try it. Then you realize it's pretty much perfection.

[Alistair Winter]

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/229826-what-is-ideal-mech-geometry/'

I think it depends on a lot of factors. I mean, chicken walkers don't necessarily have a smaller front profile than humanoids. Some humanoids have really thick legs (e.g. Rifleman or Awesome) and some humanoids have really skinny legs (e.g. Grasshopper or Phoenix Hawk). And the same goes for chicken legs.

The Raven turned out pretty small after the rescale, but the Marauder turned out huge for a 75 tonner. The Crab got bigger, the Stormcrow is the same.

And ultimately, it comes down to what role your mech has, I think. Having a Marauder-shape is not an advantage in a brawl. And due to the low arms, it's not an advantage for hill humping either. The Jenner has a small front profile (considerably smaller than Wolfhound or Firestarter), but it's pretty vulnerable in a brawl as well.

I'm excited about the Viper though. It's 5 tons bigger than the Raven, and it has chunky legs and big, thick arms. I would expect it to be no bigger than the Raven, really. Which is great.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 June 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Generally thinner side profiles, too. Body wise.

Is your mech beach body ready?



(Credits to Spooky! http://spooky777.dev...beach-355921271 )

Correct. So even though we are used to using the thought pateern of Humanoid vs Walker, maybe it's Humanoid vs Fuselage we should use to be accurate.

Humanoid tend to take frontal damage easier, but are usually thinner with better shield arms. In most cases, Fusealge can spread damage well while facing opponents, with just a little "doggy shake" action, but usually have lousy arms for soaking damge, and are far harder to protect from flanking attacks.

Details the anti-volume crowd conveniently gloss over, because apparently, in MWO; everyone is in a 2D cutout that doesn't move, doesn't twist or get attacked at any angle but frontal profile.

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

or want good shield arms (usually. Some humanoids, have crap shield arms too). Which is pretty handy on mechs like BLRs, BNCs, etc.... as well as their higher hardpoints.
...

But you can design a fuselage torso with "good" shield arms:

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 24 June 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

But you can design a fuselage torso with "good" shield arms:

and humanoid ones with BAD shield arms.

All things are generalizations, without absolutes.

[Pariah Devalis]

Alistair Winter, on 24 June 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/229826-what-is-ideal-mech-geometry/'

I think it depends on a lot of factors. I mean, chicken walkers don't necessarily have a smaller front profile than humanoids. Some humanoids have really thick legs (e.g. Rifleman or Awesome) and some humanoids have really skinny legs (e.g. Grasshopper or Phoenix Hawk). And the same goes for chicken legs.

The Raven turned out pretty small after the rescale, but the Marauder turned out huge for a 75 tonner. The Crab got bigger, the Stormcrow is the same.

And ultimately, it comes down to what role your mech has, I think. Having a Marauder-shape is not an advantage in a brawl. And due to the low arms, it's not an advantage for hill humping either. The Jenner has a small front profile (considerably smaller than Wolfhound or Firestarter), but it's pretty vulnerable in a brawl as well.

I'm excited about the Viper though. It's 5 tons bigger than the Raven, and it has chunky legs and big, thick arms. I would expect it to be no bigger than the Raven, really. Which is great.

A skoosh larger than (which makes sense).

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Correct. So even though we are used to using the thought pateern of Humanoid vs Walker, maybe it's Humanoid vs Fuselage we should use to be accurate.
...

Chicken walkers have another advantage that you can bend their legs pretty far (smaller frontal profile) without looking weird.

[Pariah Devalis]

Hit the Deck, on 24 June 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

Chicken walkers have another advantage that you can bend their legs pretty far (smaller frontal profile) without looking weird.

If only they'd tuck them in like a bird while jumping, though. Right now they kinda dangle there like low hanging fruit.

[zagibu]

Bud Crue, on 24 June 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

In other words: did volumetric rescaling give the aircraft profile/chicken walker style mechs a disproportionate advantage in most game play circumstances than the rescaled humanoid mechs?

Humanoid mechs have a worse front profile, and now that they are correctly scaled, this disadvantage is even bigger. However, profiles alone don't say how tanky a mech is, because this is strongly influenced by the effective shapes of the hitboxes. Remember the Catapult before the hitbox reallocation? It was considered a death trap, while the Stalker was considered one of the most tanky mechs (and is probably still so).

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Humanoid tend to take frontal damage easier, but are usually thinner with better shield arms. In most cases, Fusealge can spread damage well while facing opponents, with just a little "doggy shake" action, but usually have lousy arms for soaking damge, and are far harder to protect from flanking attacks.

This is what I am getting at. The question then is whether the rescale hightened this distinction? Did it provide greater value to the "fuselage' style mechs ability to spread damage vs Humanoid mechs ability to shiled given the larger frontal profile of most humanoid mechs via the rescale?

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

and humanoid ones with BAD shield arms.

All things are generalizations, without absolutes.

You are looking at the available robots but I was thinking as if I were to design a 'Mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 24 June 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

Chicken walkers have another advantage that you can bend their legs pretty far (smaller frontal profile) without looking weird.

yes, in a game. Funnily enough, in actual robotics, what we call "chicken walkers" are horrible clumsy and inefficient since they (Catapults, TimberWolves, Cataphracts) are not actually bird walkers, but simply reversed Plantigrade. The Huntsman is the first actual digitigrade, or true walker we are getting. Though it's hip to knee to ankle ratio is closer to a dog leg than a chicken.


the crucial difference between a sci-fi chicken walker and a true chicken walker highlighted in red.

*shrugs*

Pariah Devalis, on 24 June 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

If only they'd tuck them in like a bird while jumping, though. Right now they kinda dangle there like low hanging fruit.

Like the MW4 Shadowcats did?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 June 2016 - 07:39 AM.