122 replies to this topic

[Mcchuggernaut]

Mystere, on 26 June 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

Not all maps should play the same (i.e. have the exact same variety of terrain). That makes them boring. A variety of maps with different terrain is better in my book.




This so-called "rolling the dice" is just another name for "not preparing for any eventuality". I have absolutely no sympathy for people going full meta-***** instead of equipping for variety then crying on the forums that maps do not cater to their favorite meta-***** load out. It's also the reason I am not fond of this map "voting" thing.



Now imagine if 8-12 players created an LRM umbrella.

Canyon Network and the new Frozen city are very different, but they both have a good balance of terrain types. Open areas, low and high cover.

If you could choose a mech based on the map you knew you would be playing, this wouldn't be a problem at all. Having to prepare for any and all eventualities takes away incentive to specialize in a role with a certain build. Snipers and short-range builds wouldn't be advisable, and everyone would be running the same, boring Swiss army knife just to make sure you wouldn't be useless half the time.

You will never have a pug team where everyone has mechs that can even mount AMS. Not everyone is always going to be standing around in a cluster. AMS runs out of ammo.

[Kroete]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

You will never have a pug team where everyone has mechs that can even mount AMS. Not everyone is always going to be standing around in a cluster. AMS runs out of ammo.

Still waiting of your answers!!!

Which mechs, despite the x5, has no ams?
How many of your 60 missiles will go through 8 ams?

LRMS also run out of ammo ....

Edited by Kroete, 26 June 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Kroete, on 26 June 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:

The cicada x5.
But i dont know any more, i hoped he will enlight me, but he refuses to answer as he refuses to answer how many of his 60 missiles will go through 8 ams.

Your talking about single mechs, not all the variants. Almost all of the Dires don't have AMS, for example. Almost all mech chasis have at least one variant that has AMS, but those are often not the ones with the best quirks and weapon mounts, so you sometimes have to make the choice between a sub-par variant with AMS or a better machine without it. And this has once again turned into a discussion about LRMS instead of the fact that Polar Highlands is a **** map because it wasn't balanced properly. LRMs are definitely not OP on every other map, and in my opinion could use a spread buff.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Kroete, on 26 June 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

Still waiting of your answers!!!

Which mechs, despite the x5, has no ams?
How many of your 60 missiles will go through 8 ams?

LRMS also run out of ammo ....

Answered the one about which mechs have AMS.

No pug team is going to field 8 AMS mechs unless enough maps were like polar and the complete lack of high cover on them made being spotted and NARCed a certain lethal threat.

My Warhawk carries 1800 LRMs. I can fire all match long.

[Kroete]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Your talking about single mechs, not all the variants. Almost all of the Dires don't have AMS, for example. Almost all mech chasis have at least one variant that has AMS, but those are often not the ones with the best quirks and weapon mounts, so you sometimes have to make the choice between a sub-par variant with AMS or a better machine without it. And this has once again turned into a discussion about LRMS instead of the fact that Polar Highlands is a **** map because it wasn't balanced properly. LRMs are definitely not OP on every other map, and in my opinion could use a spread buff.

Dont know what game you are playing, but every dire can take the DWF-A right torso.

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

In addition, there are plenty of mechs mechs with no AMS capability.

I just want to know the "plenty" mechs you mentioned?

If you take a "better machine without it", you choosed it, but then we are back to:
No ams, no whine!

And still no answer about how many of your lrm60 will go through 8 ams!

Edited by Kroete, 26 June 2016 - 07:54 AM.

[wanderer]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Your talking about single mechs, not all the variants. Almost all of the Dires don't have AMS, for example. Almost all mech chasis have at least one variant that has AMS, but those are often not the ones with the best quirks and weapon mounts, so you sometimes have to make the choice between a sub-par variant with AMS or a better machine without it. And this has once again turned into a discussion about LRMS instead of the fact that Polar Highlands is a **** map because it wasn't balanced properly. LRMs are definitely not OP on every other map, and in my opinion could use a spread buff.

Every Omnimech has at least one pod with an AMS mount, including the Dire Wolf.

Heck, some have two or even three, even though in TT most of them don't have a single AMS mount stock. That's in there specifically so if people found LRMs to be that much of a threat, you could bend to the resulting groupthink pressure and contribute to an AMS net- which being a perpetual lurmboater, I saw happening during the various lurmageddons.

A team that uses AMS will reduce LRM40s to almost nothing and severely mitigate even LRM 60, plus they automatically swat NARC that isn't fired at under 200m (and given multiple AMS nearby, sometimes that isn't even enough).

My favorite example was piloting a triple-AMS Kit Fox back when I wanted to try a Clan machine at the intro. My AMS ammo counter kept randomly ticking downwards despite me not seeing any missiles fly by. Finally turned around.

A Raven had been trying to NARC me and my team repeatedly, and I'd ended up snuffing out every pod without even realizing it.

[Tordin]

Hahaha! I so gonna ditch those surms for some lurms on the Oxide now. Start training for some salt mining, sounds fun. Interesting that people get supersalty when they get beaten down with a "weak" weapon system. Not too much dependance on team work either, though in PUG que, results can vary indeed. Stay within 200 - 700 m with bap and ready to go.
Good grief there are alot of counters against lurms, if you cant adapt against lrm then Im lost for words

[Mcchuggernaut]

Kroete, on 26 June 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Dont know what game you are playing, but every dire can take the DWF-A right torso.


I just want to know the "plenty" mechs you mentioned?

If you take a "better machine without it", you choosed it, but then we are back to:
No ams, no whine!

And still no answer about how many of your lrm60 will go through 8 ams!

If you swap torsos with Clan mechs you also have to take the hardpoints those AMS pods have, and some of them are ****. I will concede that pretty much all of the IS mechs can mount AMS, and if you want to split hairs and force omnipods, then yes, every mech CAN mount AMS. But then why doesn't everyone use it? Because it's completely inferior to just having cover. And in the few instances where you don't have tall cover it doesn't stop most of the LRMs, and your going to die anyway, just a few seconds slower. If everyone mass-used it just because of a single map they would be foolish, because on all other maps an extra heatsink and half-ton of ammo is way more useful, and since almost all maps have abundant tall cover, and you want to be best prepared for the maps that you play most often, you don't take the AMS. That's why you don't see AMS. Players know that the way it is right now, it's a waste of time. I honestly think it should be implemented differently than it currently is.

Honestly, I'm tired of talking about this. Debating the effectiveness of LRM counter-measures is, for the tenth time now, straying from the main point and topic: Polar Highlands allowing one weapon type to dominate because of the poor design of the map. This is because it lacks what all other maps besides Alpine have: usable high cover (And Alpine's spawns got moved to promote a more cover-filled battlefield because people finally realized this was a big problem.). Add Just a bit of tall cover, and people couldn't exploit certain un-beatable strategies the lack of it on Polar currently allows there.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 26 June 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[SteelBruiser]

I think the map is just fine. I've run it with lights, mediums, heavies and assaults with varying load outs. I've learned to adapt to the requirements of the map to survive, not whine to change the map to readily support the style of play I've limited myself to. You want to just run brawlers, fine, learn to hug the ravines to get closer to the enemy. It's not that hard. Of course it will take a little longer and more skill than running through some tunnel to your destination. You only want to lob LRM's, fine but realize that once the pack of lights get you and you have no short range defense, you're going down. But that's part of playing the game. In the end, your success or failure is based on the myriad of choices made by you and the other 23 players on the battlefield. The winners are usually those that managed to get a string of right choices together for that match. The developer's job is to provide a variety of challenging environments to test the players skills. This map does that. Adapt or be overcome, those are your choices.

[wanderer]

Tordin, on 26 June 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Hahaha! I so gonna ditch those surms for some lurms on the Oxide now. Start training for some salt mining, sounds fun. Interesting that people get supersalty when they get beaten down with a "weak" weapon system. Not too much dependance on team work either, though in PUG que, results can vary indeed. Stay within 200 - 700 m with bap and ready to go.
Good grief there are alot of counters against lurms, if you cant adapt against lrm then Im lost for words

Bonus: Any other LRM boat on the team will be quite happy with a high-mobility spotter that by nature is gonna WANT to hold locks.

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

If you swap torsos with Clan mechs you also have to take the hardpoints those AMS pods have, and some of them are ****. I will concede that pretty much all of the IS mechs can mount AMS, and if you want to split hairs and force omnipods, then yes, every mech CAN mount AMS. But then why doesn't everyone use it? Because it's completely inferior to just having cover.

No, everyone doesn't use it because LRMs are so rarely a significant threat in the face of even moderate amounts of cover that they'd rather have a few heat sinks, and AMS only truly works well in multiples- and even then, your odds of LRMs decrease as skill levels increase, meaning even the metabuilders aren't gonna strap one one.

Make launchers more accurate and normalize spread to around current LRM-10 levels, and you -might- see people calling your average missile boat "threatening" outside of it simply strapping SRMs on instead.

Velocity and spread, the two LRM bugaboos on a weapon that people wet themselves over a velocity increase of fifteen. Not 150. 15.

[Mystere]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Honestly, I'm tired of talking about this. Debating the effectiveness of LRM counter-measures is, for the tenth time now, straying from the main point and topic: Polar Highlands allowing one weapon type to dominate because of the poor design of the map. This is because it lacks what all other maps besides Alpine have: usable high cover (And Alpine's spawns got moved to promote a more cover-filled battlefield because people finally realized this was a big problem.). Add Just a bit of tall cover, and people couldn't exploit certain un-beatable strategies the lack of it on Polar currently allows there.

And once again, it's 2 maps out of 20. It's not bad design. You just do not want to admit the obvious.

[wanderer]

Speaking of maps, most missile boaters will basically throw their hands up and go "whelp, I'm trash this round" every time you pick Mining Collective.

Seriously, it's like you want your PUG to randomly have it's guns crippled. At least on Crimson we're useful enough to force people under the docks for you and can reasonably get to brawl range.

Have I mentioned lately I'd love to see unlocked LRMs fire in a flat arc so I can actually shoot things in tunnels?

[Malachy Karrde]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

Bull shite they do. Maybe in a light mech, which is small and fast enough to get away from a spotter. Look, the fact that LRMs are obviously incredibly effective there and that video of an unstoppable tactic that has no counter on that map because of inadequate high cover just speak for themselves. Balanced terrain makes for balanced gameplay. If the maps were all flat nobody would bother to use SRMs or small/med lasers, AC20s...nothing would have a place except gauss, ERLLs, LRMs, and PPCs. You need varied terrain within all maps to promote all weapons and styles of play. Otherwise you are just rolling the dice depending on what map you get as to who is going to have an unfair advantage or disadvantage. That causes weapon balance problems, and annoys players when they get randomly penalized for things beyond their control. Lack of "situational awareness" has go nothing to do with poor map balance.

I'm a dire wolf pilot son, it's virtually all I use. Those valleys work just fine as cover. I don't take ams, but I use radar derp. I rarely get hit with missiles on polar and use the valleys to block incoming lrms. You need to know which direction the missiles are coming from and move to the wall closest to them. It's called situational awareness and very few people have it in this game. I'm sorry but it's not the map, it's the player. Learn to make do with what you have, asking that a map be changed to suit your limited tactics is the height of arrogance and shows that you as a player are inflexible and of limited use to your team. Oh I watched that video, the pilot was a moron.

Edited by Malachy Karrde, 26 June 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[ExoForce]

If my team starts new Frozen City on high ground (around B5), my LRM boat will dominate (ludicrous damage/kills).
If we start lower around H5, my LRM boat is dead if we dont push towards E7. On the old one it was exactly the opposite. BTW, LRMs are nerfed more then you know and there are so many ECMs now.

@Malachy - Best sig ever!

Edited by ExoForce, 26 June 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Malachy Karrde, on 26 June 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

I'm a dire wolf pilot son, it's virtually all I use. Those valleys work just fine as cover. I don't take ams, but I use radar derp. I rarely get hit with missiles on polar and use the valleys to block incoming lrms. You need to know which direction the missiles are coming from and move to the wall closest to them. It's called situational awareness and very few people have it in this game. I'm sorry but it's not the map, it's the player. Learn to make do with what you have, asking that a map be changed to suit your limited tactics is the height of arrogance and shows that you as a player are inflexible and of limited use to your team. Oh I watched that video, the pilot was a moron.

Sure, ignore a glaringly obvious problem with a map because you should be good enough to just compensate all the time? Why not fix the problem and restore balance before throwing "git good, scrub!" at someone. I'm consistently a top-scorer, and if I thought it was a technique problem I wouldn't be complaining, I would be correcting it. Your even saying that pilot in the video was a moron, and if a moron can put up 1k damage and be nigh-untouchable and un-counterable maybe that should tell you there's a problem. This isn't some amateur piloting issue like not torso twisting, or bad positioning you can just "Skill" away.

[Mystere]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Sure, ignore a glaringly obvious problem with a map because you should be good enough to just compensate all the time? Why not fix the problem and restore balance before ...

As people have been telling you, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the map other than the fact that you do not like it.

[Gorgo7]

Mcchugernaut,
Relax, it is a good map for missiles but that is all it is. It is not a broken map.
That video of your buddy is sweet!
However, he had a LOT of help from his team. They aggressive pushed in and locked him targets and distracted the enemy. The locust he ignored would have killed him if the pilot had thought to slow stay inside his minimum and aim at him. He was very lucky there.
A perfect storm all told. Not evidence of a broken map. Perhaps if the Oxides cool down were fiddled with? That might "Fix" the map for you. I have some experience with that map and missiles losing it because the team waits for the missiles to "win it " for them before they attack. That ends in disaster. All you showed was a strong team and a good oxide pilot.

[Kubernetes]

Red Shrike, on 26 June 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

That's not brawling, that's hiding. Sure, people collect around the center, but all they do is: poke out, get shot, crawl back into cover, rinse and repeat until either side has the numerical advantage. When I think of a brawl I think of mechs circle strafing each other without using cover. (As seen in the MW4:Mercs intro)

Seriously, you don't see brawls on Canyon? Have you only played the map five times?

Also, smart trading is not simply "hiding." If you can shoot the enemy and not get shot in return, that's A Good Thing.

[Kubernetes]

Honestly, many of the complaints about maps and meta would go away if we were allowed to pick our mech from a dropdeck after map selection. People could (and would) bring specific builds for maps like Polar or Terra, instead of getting hosed because you brought the wrong mech.

[Novakaine]

Love it!