151 replies to this topic

[Egg Fu]

IdolElite, on 26 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

I mentioned this elsewhere but I'll say it again, LRMs need a toggle for launch angle, one angle that shoots them up like present, and one that shoots them out like SRMs.

Not a bad idea at all as long as the option to fire them strait out is a dead fire which doesn't allow them to home in on a moving target.

Edited by Egg Fu, 26 June 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Navid A1]

Darth Hotz, on 26 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just recently I built a Lurmmauler for shits and giggles and guess what, I scored extremely high again. So I think I have reason enough to say no to any lrm improvements, because I know how to play lrms. The game is to static already with lots of missle boats hiding far away from the front line and let others do their work. It is completly reasonable that you get downsides for using a weapon system that does not require you to face the enemy. And if you are one of those lrm players that pump volley after volley into rocks and buildings noone can help you anyway.

If by that you mean the quad LRM15 mauler, then please note that you have 27% cooldown bonus... which means 1.37 times faster firing. There is also the missile velocity quirk.
And you sacrificed your ability to put direct fire guns on your mech which renders you useless as soon as that lolcust gets near you.

Moreover, please note another thing... your "Large damage" and "extremely high score" further confirms that LRMs suck at the moment. There is too much spread.

You got large damage scores because 1- enemies were bunch of scrubs and 2- because you hit lots and lots of components.... wasting so much time and ammo on killing a single target.



Same spread among all racks is perfectly fine If missile related quirks are removed. You can adjust the cooldown numbers accordingly.



Extra fun fact:
Did you know that currently 2 LRM5s at 4 tons are equivalent to a 10 ton super-accurate LRM20 in terms of damage output (Dps)?
Does that seem ok to you?

Edited by Navid A1, 26 June 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[IdolElite]

Egg Fu, on 26 June 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Not a bad idea at all as long as the option to fire them strait out is a dead fire which doesn't allow them to home in on a moving target.

What's wrong with it retaining it's locking capability? The missiles don't do short range like ssrms or have their never miss capability, the idea is to make LRMs usable in more direct confrontations and when you have a ceiling.

Dumb fire srms are pretty hard to aim around max range, I can't imagine firing an lrm 15 dumb fire at say 400 meters.

Edited by IdolElite, 26 June 2016 - 02:24 PM.

[Screech]

Navid A1, on 26 June 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Extra fun fact:
Did you know that currently 2 LRM5s at 4 tons are equivalent to a 10 ton super-accurate LRM20 in terms of damage output (Dps)?
Does that seem ok to you?

Until AMS is factored in.

[Trauglodyte]

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

At this point, it's literally more and better focused damage to mount a bunch of LRM 5s without Artemis than 45-60 in LRM 15/20s with Artemis. If the guy mounting 5x5 or 6x5 isn't breaking the game and he's better than the guy mounting 3-4 x15 or even x20 at a huge investment in tonnage, why are the mega-lurmer types even a potential problem? You're not getting double the effective damage out of an LRM 10 vs. an LRM 5, and you're lucky to get double the effective damage out of an LRM 15 vs. a 5 because half of those extra missiles will hit arms and legs, while the rest will hit dirt. And you're even worse firing an LRM 20.

The big tube launcher types just look more impressive because there's more missiles incoming and they splat more damage across more locations. They even put out less DPS because they're also slower launchers.

You're preaching to the choir. I've been yelling about how bad LRMs have been since beta. Why do my LRMs arc when my target is in front of me, in LOS, within 300m? Seriously, why? How does that make any freaking sense?

I will say this, though. Given all of the game improvements that have come about over the past 4 years that were, originally, told to us that they couldn't be done, at the time, because they didn't have the technological expertise to do so OR because the Cry Engine, at that time, didn't support it, is pretty good. It could simply be that LRMs can't be pathed two different ways right now. If that is the case, give me freaking MRMs. Put in the band-aid, I don't care.

[Navid A1]

Screech, on 26 June 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

Until AMS is factored in.

Make that 3 LRM5s and have a laugh.
6 ton Super-accurate LRM20 against AMS targets and 6 ton super-accurate LRM30 against non-AMS targets.

[Egg Fu]

IdolElite, on 26 June 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

What's wrong with it retaining it's locking capability? The missiles don't do short range like ssrms or have their never miss capability, the idea is to make LRMs usable in more direct confrontations and when you have a ceiling.

Dumb fire srms are pretty hard to aim around max range, I can't imagine firing an lrm 15 dumb fire at say 400 meters.

Well then make them only be able to be guided in with a tag laser continuously held on target.

[Egg Fu]

They should just make tag lasers have their own specific hardpoint and give it to most all the mechs that use LRM's. That way one wouldn't have to waste a precious hardpoint that could be used instead for a laser.

Or just add tag laser to targeting computers and not cost any additional tonnage other than the computer itself. That way you'd still have have your precious single ton and empty slot not "wasted".

Then more people would start using tag more often and actually be more useful to the group.

[Egg Fu]

Yup, there you go. With any Joe Blow running around with targeting computer and jump jets you could way more often have that guy hiding up in the mountain behind the enemy holding a tag guiding in your missiles instead of the rare support player who speaks up before a game asking if anyone has LRM because he has tag.

Only suggesting all this since most LRM boaters simply refuse to even consider tag let alone equip it. Y'all want your cake and eat it too. Lord forbid having to use a single ton and slot on something which makes LRMs actually useful. Just complain and pretend it's not even a factor as you whine and hide behind your little hill pressing the monkey button.

[Screech]

Navid A1, on 26 June 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Make that 3 LRM5s and have a laugh.
6 ton Super-accurate LRM20 against AMS targets and 6 ton super-accurate LRM30 against non-AMS targets.

Not going to get me to defend LRM20 too much but LRM5's are not really that scary.

Seems you are really just talking about the pros of boating more then anything else.

[IdolElite]

I do tend to run tag on my lrmers if possible, if only to break ecm, a dedicated spot would be great, more importantly a toggle button for it would be wonderful, I hate holding that button. Now NARC is something I never use.

I tend to play a very aggressive lrmer, usually only end up in the back if I get too target rich an environment and get left behind/distracted.

I think one of the oft overlooked pros of LURMs is their ability to stymie pushes and peek a boo, just press r between targets as they appear and send the hail, you can buy a lot of time for your team.

Edited by IdolElite, 26 June 2016 - 03:19 PM.

[Belacose]

As per thread title - I guess you talk to Sader whose thread inspired you to create your own. Other than that I guess you can talk to the wall.

[Darth Hotz]

Navid A1, on 26 June 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

If by that you mean the quad LRM15 mauler, then please note that you have 27% cooldown bonus... which means 1.37 times faster firing. There is also the missile velocity quirk.
And you sacrificed your ability to put direct fire guns on your mech which renders you useless as soon as that lolcust gets near you.

Moreover, please note another thing... your "Large damage" and "extremely high score" further confirms that LRMs suck at the moment. There is too much spread.

You got large damage scores because 1- enemies were bunch of scrubs and 2- because you hit lots and lots of components.... wasting so much time and ammo on killing a single target.



Same spread among all racks is perfectly fine If missile related quirks are removed. You can adjust the cooldown numbers accordingly.



Extra fun fact:
Did you know that currently 2 LRM5s at 4 tons are equivalent to a 10 ton super-accurate LRM20 in terms of damage output (Dps)?
Does that seem ok to you?

1. You just confirmed that there are lrm quirks, not only on the mauler but on several mechs. So why improve lrms further?
2. I used 3 lrm 15 and 1 srm 6 + 4 mg. Much more ammo and a nice surprise for any light.
3. With nearly 2000 lrms I dont even care if I score a kill. I soften them so other can finish and most of the times I get kills anyway.
4. Taking out components from a far distance is crucial advantage when the enemy closes in.
5. Scrubs only? I play at the same tier as you.

Your fun fact: yes it is ok, because you lurm fans can not expect to fill up all your missle hardpoint with lrm 20 and insta kill enemies while in cover 1000m away from the fight. You need to realize that lrms are a support weapon and there is a trade off for not needing to face the enemy.

[Koniks]

You can, in fact, fire LRMs under cover and have them hit a target. Aim at the ground then bring the reticle back onto target so you don't lose lock. You can use the same technique to fire around and over cover.

[Lostdragon]

You need to be able to manually guide your missiles (they follow your targeting reticle) and missiles in the air need to be able to be redirected to a new target if they lose lock. Those two things would make lurms a lot more enjoyable and reward skillful play.

[Chuck Jager]

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Strangely enough, I don't end up with a pristine 'Mech (frequently, it's missing parts or dead- XL engine to carry any reasonable ammo load, natch) in fights for some reason. Artemis takes having LOS to function, after all- part of why scrub players packing large LRM launchers are so terrible. Indirect mode is maximum spread. Aggressiveness is key pretty much to any match if you're actually going to be competent with missiles- getting close, getting your locks if possible, keeping a steady stream of fire either way.

People who parasitically use team locks only are generally incompetent with a launcher. Making LRMs decent for good players isn't going to change scrubby players in the least.

And tell me- what the heck does bad players have to do with why a weapon is bad? I see people sniping with lasers past their range, standing in place in the middle of an open field while I pour missiles into them, the whole nine yards.

Fixing velocity, spread, and giving a better direct-fire mode all are fixes to the weapon. You can't fix stupid players or bad play. Don't take one for the other.

Because any change without completely removing non-LOS locks only encourages the bad or newer players.

Also, folks like both lrm and streaks because of artificial damage inflation, and this is still true at all levels of play. If you buff the way the weapon works you would need to nerf the damage.

This is a cake and eat it too argument.

I do agree as far as a military SIM replicating advanced tech the mechanics are way off.

[Navid A1]

Darth Hotz, on 26 June 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

1. You just confirmed that there are lrm quirks, not only on the mauler but on several mechs. So why improve lrms further?
2. I used 3 lrm 15 and 1 srm 6 + 4 mg. Much more ammo and a nice surprise for any light.
3. With nearly 2000 lrms I dont even care if I score a kill. I soften them so other can finish and most of the times I get kills anyway.
4. Taking out components from a far distance is crucial advantage when the enemy closes in.
5. Scrubs only? I play at the same tier as you.

Your fun fact: yes it is ok, because you lurm fans can not expect to fill up all your missle hardpoint with lrm 20 and insta kill enemies while in cover 1000m away from the fight. You need to realize that lrms are a support weapon and there is a trade off for not needing to face the enemy.

1- The fact that they need quirks is a big indication about the state of LRMs
2&3&4&5- The fact that you could even score damage means that someone was taking hits for you...someone was on the front line holding locks... your teammates were being pounded in the face... you are just not there to see it. If your team manages to overpower the enemy AND hold locks for you, there is a good chance that they could win it even without you.



LRMs are a support weapons alright. The trade off is already there... missiles take time to reach a target, and the enemy receives a warning

[wanderer]

Darth Hotz, on 26 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just recently I built a Lurmmauler for shits and giggles and guess what, I scored extremely high again. So I think I have reason enough to say no to any lrm improvements, because I know how to play lrms. The game is to static already with lots of missle boats hiding far away from the front line and let others do their work. It is completly reasonable that you get downsides for using a weapon system that does not require you to face the enemy. And if you are one of those lrm players that pump volley after volley into rocks and buildings noone can help you anyway.

If you're firing 4xALRM15, of course you're getting lots of damage. That's because half of your salvo is splattering randomly on arms and legs rather than torsos, as with anything in that size range you're bludgeoning the target to death. Nice for the KMDDs too, for obvious reasons. You -were- actually moving up, getting your own locks, and all that, right?

Most targets I solo kill with missiles on builds like that barely have a scrap of frontal armor left afterwards because you end up sandblasting the thing to death with dozens after dozens of missiles. That's big LRM launchers for you. Slow death by thousands of paper cuts. By comparison, I've got an Archer-5S and holy crud, does it abuse torsos with 5 LRM 5's and accurate DPS that make my Orion feel slow by comparison, both in ROF and kill speed.

And if your opponent's lights are dumb enough to not see all those contrails from the backfield as free and easy meat, you've got derps for opponents. Slow, inaccurate, ammo wasting derps with a "Kill me" sign pointing right at their target. That they ignored. Better velocity and spread won't make them any more useful, considering they'll be spewing indirect, inaccurate fire either way.

Again, though- why should a weapon be total junk because bad players gravitate to it? It's already got more counters in the game than anything else. Bad players are still bad with LRMs, still going to pour salt getting killed by LRMs competent players avoid, still going to get slaughtered like sheep because most of the time, they're busy blaming the rain when it's the guy shooting them with direct fire who gets them down.

I had one really salty fellow who I was chainfiring LRM 10's at (hey, Caustic is hot!) who spent most of the rest of the match chewing me out for OP LRMs killing him so fast.

That would have been the Jenner IIC that had put all the SRMs up his backside, but apparently "INCOMING MISSILE" was the secret evil. If that's why LRMs aren't even modestly tweaked or worked on then please, at least let us change their title to "THE POTATO" for the next match if they get KMDD'd by LRMs. Please. So I can at least see them coming.

IdolElite, on 26 June 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

What's wrong with it retaining it's locking capability? The missiles don't do short range like ssrms or have their never miss capability, the idea is to make LRMs usable in more direct confrontations and when you have a ceiling.

Dumb fire srms are pretty hard to aim around max range, I can't imagine firing an lrm 15 dumb fire at say 400 meters.

I'd rather just have the option to fire "flat" when unlocked, the same as almost every other weapon in the game. I have no problems with it, if only because it means I'd be able to actually use them in areas where they won't function now, locked or not. If I'm fighting in a tunnel or other cramped space, it's not like they're evading much. But at least I'd -hit something-

[wanderer]

Chuck Jager, on 26 June 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

Because any change without completely removing non-LOS locks only encourages the bad or newer players.

Also, folks like both lrm and streaks because of artificial damage inflation, and this is still true at all levels of play. If you buff the way the weapon works you would need to nerf the damage.

Strangely enough, if you fixed spread and velocity, you'd end up with less damage inflation because you'd have fewer partial hits between missiles needing a touch less travel time and focusing.

LRM 20s don't deal 20 damage because all 20 missiles won't even hit a Dire Wolf parked in place. 10 ton weapon. Spread damage. If you're lucky, it puts 10 damage across three locations, one or two random hits elsewhere, and the rest in the dirt. Actually, it's an 11 ton weapon, because that's assuming you mounted Artemis and fired with LOS or it'll scatter even worse.

LRM 15s are similar, thanks to the slightly smaller spread. 8 ton weapon to get that Artemis result. That's how bad LRM 20s are, LRM 15's aren't much better, but at least they're lighter.

LRM 10s will put most missiles into the target, with half or so hitting torso- assuming you're standing still. Moving targets will lose a missile or two. 6 ton weapon. Personally, it's where I think LRM spread should be for all launchers.

LRM 5s? They'll actually hit with all five missiles most of the time unless it's a light. And you can pump them out fast enough to make up for it. And it's a TWO ton weapon, because it doesn't need Artemis to hit.

But hey, bigger launchers should do LESS damage per ton, right? Much less, in terms of effectiveness and DPS? This makes sense to who here?

[TerrasFallen]

The solutions I have seen to this that I like are...

One: Make tag equipment like the AMS, because then you can have a toggle button for it and not loose your weapon mount.

and

Two: Have the 3 ton command console / clan targeting computer increase tag range, missile velocity, and allow the system to fire straight out or in an arc depending on where you are if the target is in LOS.

I don't know if they get lucky or if they have gotten better programmers, but it seems like the ability to do this is there in the engine. If this turns out to be over powered well **** at least we tried. Hell maybe one of them will enter a trance and we will get the ability to lock on and fire then switch targets and as long as someone has the dude you shot at still targeted the missiles would hit AND THEN they let us guide the missiles out with TAG on the deactivate it and lock on to have them GO AROUND CORNERS if timed right OR MAYBE WE COULD MOUNT MONKEYS WITH BATS ON THEM SO THAT THE MISSILES THAT MISS STILL DO DAMAGE AS THE MONKEYS SWING IN WILD TERRIFIED FURY WHILE THE MISSILES GO BY!!! Wait what was I saying? Anyway I would love to see the command console get some use and Tag be like ECM, AMS, MASC, Etc.

Edited by TerrasFallen, 26 June 2016 - 06:29 PM.