93 replies to this topic

[jweltsch]

adamts01, on 26 June 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

What's BS? Play to your build's advantage. With few exceptions (Brawler Atlas, straight LRM boats) there's a way to do this. SPL Nova on Alpine for example. Spot UAVs for your team, keep the ankle biters away, and stay fresh for the finale. The snipers will be picked apart by then, most brawlers aren't patient and are probably weakened. I've had some of my best matches in that mech on that map.

Problem is, in the vast majority of quick play matches by the time your brawler gets to play on maps like polar, alpine, or new frozen city the match has largely been decided (7 to 8 times of ten) because the teams WONT close until one side has an advantage. So at best you help your team win faster, at worst you are a deciding factor in the loss simply because you cannot close over 1200 meters of open terrian without being shot to hell so you sat back and "waited for the brawl", or you spent 4 to 5 minutes on a flank and either your team or theres is mostly dead anyways, assuming you didnt get caught in the flank in the first place. Maps are largely very unbalanced in one playstyles favor over another in this game.

adamts01, on 26 June 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

I feel you on the Atlas. If you run the brawler setup on Polar you absolutely need your tEaM to work together. But in MWO.....tEaM.....EaM.....EM.....ME..... ME ME ME ME ME


I'm absolutely against this proposal. My thoughts mostly mirror those of Alistair. The reason some of these maps play differently is because of the different composition of teams. I don't want to see all Hellbringers on Polar, all Atlas on Mining, all JJ mechs on Canyon. Diversity is good, the team that thinks, adapts and plays to their strengths is victorious. Figuring out how to make your less than optimal team work is the last "thinking" part this game has left.

teams think and adapt in solo qp? Really? How often do you really have ANY clue what even half the rest of your team brought to the table? answer is never. So this isnt really a "team" thing as there really is no way to coordinate a random group of 12 people with w/e loadout in 60 seconds.

Mystere, on 26 June 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

How about another point of view?

This is a PvP game and part of PvP is preparing for as many eventualities as possible.



That's easily avoidable by selecting the Mech at the last second.



In the BT universe, IS mechs are nowhere near as customizable as what we have in MWO. That is the BT reality.

Then you boil us down to exactly what we have now, fit largely mid to long range weapons that work in any scenario and disregard the rest. Sure in BT mechs were largely not customized, but they DID send the correct mechs for the job if they had the options.

[adamts01]

jweltsch, on 26 June 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

Problem is, in the vast majority of quick play matches by the time your brawler gets to play on maps like polar, alpine, or new frozen city the match has largely been decided (7 to 8 times of ten) because the teams WONT close until one side has an advantage.

7/8 might be a slight exaggeration but you are right. That's why I typically don't bring pure brawlers, at least not slow ones. One of my favorites is my 4mpl 6spl Stormcrow. It runs cool enough, can do some decent poking at 400m and is fast enough to close to spl range. My Nova is crazy fun up close, but it's much more of a gamble.

jweltsch, on 26 June 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

teams think and adapt in solo qp? Really? How often do you really have ANY clue what even half the rest of your team brought to the table? answer is never. So this isnt really a "team" thing as there really is no way to coordinate a random group of 12 people with w/e loadout in 60 seconds.

I'm the last person to say teamwork usually happens in quickplay, even in group que. When a map like Polar does come up though, I do try to rally the forces. Ask how many snipers we have. Do we have any LRM boats? Can one of our lights spot for him? We're all brawlers, ****, ok, we'll have to close fast. Granted that seldom works, but normally one team or the other moves slightly better than the other.

But really, this comes down to a problem with the community more than anything. If anyone has a plan, I'll go along with it, but sadly most won't. It really confuses me as to why solo players choose this game to play. There are plenty more out there where individual performance is both more influential and recognized.

[adamts01]

jweltsch, on 26 June 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

Then you boil us down to exactly what we have now, fit largely mid to long range weapons that work in any scenario and disregard the rest. Sure in BT mechs were largely not customized, but they DID send the correct mechs for the job if they had the options.

In BattleTech it didn't take a 3LPL 5ML alpha to not be a joke. Look at the stock loadouts. 2 larges, 2 meds and 2xLRM20s was scary as **** to run in to. The problem is boating and big alphas really.

[PholkLorr]

I am all for this change. So what If everybody brought laser vomit to a long range map, or acs to a hot map? That maximises the fun for each individual player. Every individual gets to make an informed decision in mech choice that they feel will be most useful/fun for them given a specific map.

Some fella said, "Brought spl brawler to alpine? Go and be a bodyguard against lights and watch for uavs". How the heck is thst fun?! People with long range bots get to shoot sheet for most of the game and I just stare at the floor and hang around, only being able to shoot stuff 5% of the game (as opposed to 100% if you're long ranged)?

I sure as hell don't find that fun. Spend 5 mins in q, 3 mins for the game to load, then spend 8 mins walking around, only to shoot for a total of 1 minute?! Or in some instances, shoot for a total of 0 seconds. You call that fun?!

People say that they are sick of seeing laser vomit spam and also say they want to see more weapon diversity. It's precisely because laser vomit is good at ALL maps (and 70% of maps favour long range anyway) that the best way to produce consistently good scores regardless of map is to bring laser vomit.

[Sader325]

PholkLorr, on 26 June 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

I am all for this change. So what If everybody brought laser vomit to a long range map, or acs to a hot map? That maximises the fun for each individual player. Every individual gets to make an informed decision in mech choice that they feel will be most useful/fun for them given a specific map.

Some fella said, "Brought spl brawler to alpine? Go and be a bodyguard against lights and watch for uavs". How the heck is thst fun?! People with long range bots get to shoot sheet for most of the game and I just stare at the floor and hang around, only being able to shoot stuff 5% of the game (as opposed to 100% if you're long ranged)?

I sure as hell don't find that fun. Spend 5 mins in q, 3 mins for the game to load, then spend 8 mins walking around, only to shoot for a total of 1 minute?! Or in some instances, shoot for a total of 0 seconds. You call that fun?!

People say that they are sick of seeing laser vomit spam and also say they want to see more weapon diversity. It's precisely because laser vomit is good at ALL maps (and 70% of maps favour long range anyway) that the best way to produce consistently good scores regardless of map is to bring laser vomit.

This man speaks truth.

[Mystere]

jweltsch, on 26 June 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

Then you boil us down to exactly what we have now, fit largely mid to long range weapons that work in any scenario and disregard the rest. Sure in BT mechs were largely not customized, but they DID send the correct mechs for the job if they had the options.

The so called "options" were in the hands of the top military commanders and not you the pilot.

On a more serious note, what we need are several dense and large scale urban maps. Massed light, short ranged, cooler weapons with faster cycle times would be devastating compared to your "mid to long range weapons that work in any scenario".

Edited by Mystere, 26 June 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[El Bandito]

Allowing people to switch mechs (basically allowing people to switch loadouts), means hot maps will be filled with ballistic boats and cold maps will be filled with energy boats. Which means missiles will be sidelined on most maps. No bueno.

I prefer it when the map selection encourages mixed loadouts (type or range).

PholkLorr, on 26 June 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

Some fella said, "Brought spl brawler to alpine? Go and be a bodyguard against lights and watch for uavs". How the heck is thst fun?! People with long range bots get to shoot sheet for most of the game and I just stare at the floor and hang around, only being able to shoot stuff 5% of the game (as opposed to 100% if you're long ranged)?

Case in point.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2016 - 12:40 AM.

[Sader325]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

Allowing people to switch mechs (basically allowing people to switch loadouts), means hot maps will be filled with ballistic boats and cold maps will be filled with energy boats. Which means missiles will be sidelined on most maps. No bueno.

I prefer it when the map selection encourages mixed loadouts (type or range).

[/font]

Case in point.

There is not a single map in the game that encourages "mixed loadouts". Such a thing doesn't exist.

[C E Dwyer]

Oh someone else wants an even more cookie cutter game, jolly good..

Adapt use skillz to over come the mechs weakness or simply

NO

[Kubernetes]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

Allowing people to switch mechs (basically allowing people to switch loadouts), means hot maps will be filled with ballistic boats and cold maps will be filled with energy boats.  Which means missiles will be sidelined on most maps.

LRMs are largely ineffective on some maps, period.  And on other maps they're very effective.  Wouldn't you prefer not to gamble when you load up an LRM boat?  I guarantee people will still run LRMs-- just not so much on Crimson or HPG or River City.  I sometimes like to roll out my Orion VA, and sometimes I have really fun matches with it.  And then other times it's horribly frustrating and I ask myself why I ever bother running LRMs.  Launching a thousand missiles into buildings is just not fun.  Look how many chassis get sidelined now because they're too niche.  I never run my Dires, even though they're pretty effective on many (particularly small) maps.  Problem is when I get Polar or Grim it's just minutes of running around by myself as I pray that no Oxide spots me.  Those games just aren't fun.

Edited by Kubernetes, 27 June 2016 - 01:03 AM.

[vocifer]

Sader325, on 27 June 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

There is nothing in this game that encourages "mixed loadouts". Such a thing doesn't exist.

FTFY^

And as for OP, I'd go further and implement lobbies, where not only you can swap mechs but discuss it with other teammates. And suddenly, those who like brawling on Alpine so much can now do it in an organized way.

[Kubernetes]

Cathy, on 27 June 2016 - 12:55 AM, said:

Oh someone else wants an even more cookie cutter game, jolly good..

Adapt use skillz to over come the mechs weakness or simply

NO

Oh yeah, it's the lack of "skillz" that makes certain loadouts terrible on certain maps. Maybe I need to drop in another 14k matches so I can "git gud"and teleport across the map, make my LRMs pierce buildings, and extend my SRMs out to 800m.

[El Bandito]

Sader325, on 27 June 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

There is not a single map in the game that encourages "mixed loadouts". Such a thing doesn't exist.

Aye, but there are maps that encourage boating of certain weapons in exclusion of others. Which is why I am against this proposal.

Kubernetes, on 27 June 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

LRMs are largely ineffective on some maps, period. And on other maps they're very effective. Wouldn't you prefer not to gamble when you load up an LRM boat? I guarantee people will still run LRMs-- just not so much on Crimson or HPG or River City. I sometimes like to roll out my Orion VA, and sometimes I have really fun matches with it. And then other times it's horribly frustrating and I ask myself why I ever bother running LRMs. Launching a thousand missiles into buildings is just not fun.

That's more of LRMs' issue. I prefer PGI to fix LRMs so they are not feast or famine weapon, based on the map.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

I would like to see this tried at least once.

If only to find out what happens on polar highlands if one team boats LRM's and the other boats brawlers with AMS.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Sader325, on 26 June 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

The idea mech pilots are dropped blind with no info on whether their loadout is good for a mission or not is pretty asinine honestly. Soldiers don't get randomly dropped into desert missions with winter camo, they always have a general idea of where they are going and what they will encounter when they get there.

Fun fact. In battletech mechs are fairly rare and the generals have to work with what they have available close to the attack site or spend six months jumping mechs in from across their nation. The defenders of course typically would have a handful of mechs and crap tons of militia, tanks, VTOL, etc more tailored to the environment as they typically had more time to build up those forces.

In fact, the abiility to tailor a mech's loadout to the environment and available range was/is the biggest advantage of omnimechs in TT. Yes, bigger than clan pulse lasers, 15 damage PPCs, UAC20s, 12 ton guass, and superior weight saving techs.

[Metus regem]

Darth Hotz, on 26 June 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

Why not an autowin button for Omnimechs only?

Well then it comes down to actually giving Omni's something over Battle Mechs, as Battle Mechs in the current live game environment hold all of the advantages, they can change structure type, armour type, engine size, they armour/structure slots are not fixed... That's a big list of advantages for Battle Mechs over Omni's. Omni's can just do plug and play for pods, not such a big deal really.

[1453 R]

Kubernetes, on 26 June 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

This is just bizarre. It's like people enjoy playing games that randomly handicap you. And you wonder why there's a laser vomit meta? It's the build that least puts you at the mercy of Map Selection Jesus. There's no map that just renders laser vomit flat out useless. Even on hot maps you can still be very effective.

Maps play differently because the teams are a clumsy compilation of mechs, some of which are well-suited for the map, some of which do okay, and some of which are completely useless. If it turns out that your best pilots are in the worst mechs, you're done. So much for skill, let's just give it up for Map Selection Jesus.

People don't like the idea of a MWO where there is one - UND PRECISELY VUN - 'correct' decision for any given map.

Dropping on River City? Bettah bust out that 50kph SRM-overloaded city-fighter! Hmm, what's that? Wanted to play your cLPL cavalry 'Mech this round?

TOO GOD DAMNED BAD!

Versatile, multirole builds capable of handling a wide variety of battlefields and situations will disappear completely, replaced by one-dimensional shitmechs which are really freaking awesome at one specific gametype on one specific map (even if they're utter garbage everywhere else), and because of this Unification Of All Things, most all matches of MWO will end up significantly more same-y and boring than they already are. Every River City match will play out pretty much the same way, as will every Polar Highlands match, and every Mining Collective match, with increasing levels of conformity to the ultranarrow, forum-mandated Required Meta for any given map the further up the tier ranks you climb.

Commodity Warfare guys may like that. I don't know - I haven't ever actually played a 'FW' match because the drop deck respawny game mode is actively cancer, and because the way Piranha's handled CW irritates me every time I think about it.

I do know, however, that a lot of quick play guys rather enjoy the chaotic mosh pit and would take "Make it work!" as a motto if they could. Dropped on Polar with a brawly loadout? Too bad; make it work! Brought your bad-at-literally-everything-but-Boreal-in-FW Hellbringer to Forest Colony? Rethink your eminently awful loadout, but do it later. For now? Make it work! Brought a hot-as-hell beamspam CBN to Mordor? Time to practice some trigger discipline, and MAKE. IT. WORK.

We like Making It Work. We don't like the thought of comps being able to buy seven hundred different 'Mechs and bring just exactly the right thing to every single match they play, and then proceed to b*tch out everyone else on comms for not also being in literally the exact same identical chassis/configuration the comp guy is driving because that 'Mech is "the proper choice for this particular game mode on this particular map at this particular timeslot in the day/night cycle!"

If you do like doing that? Well, you've already had your answer - FW is off that way. Go enjoy.

[Maugged]

1453 R, on 27 June 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

People don't like the idea of a MWO where there is one - UND PRECISELY VUN - 'correct' decision for any given map.

Dropping on River City? Bettah bust out that 50kph SRM-overloaded city-fighter! Hmm, what's that? Wanted to play your cLPL cavalry 'Mech this round?

TOO GOD DAMNED BAD!

Versatile, multirole builds capable of handling a wide variety of battlefields and situations will disappear completely, replaced by one-dimensional shitmechs which are really freaking awesome at one specific gametype on one specific map (even if they're utter garbage everywhere else), and because of this Unification Of All Things, most all matches of MWO will end up significantly more same-y and boring than they already are. Every River City match will play out pretty much the same way, as will every Polar Highlands match, and every Mining Collective match, with increasing levels of conformity to the ultranarrow, forum-mandated Required Meta for any given map the further up the tier ranks you climb.

Commodity Warfare guys may like that. I don't know - I haven't ever actually played a 'FW' match because the drop deck respawny game mode is actively cancer, and because the way Piranha's handled CW irritates me every time I think about it.

I do know, however, that a lot of quick play guys rather enjoy the chaotic mosh pit and would take "Make it work!" as a motto if they could. Dropped on Polar with a brawly loadout? Too bad; make it work! Brought your bad-at-literally-everything-but-Boreal-in-FW Hellbringer to Forest Colony? Rethink your eminently awful loadout, but do it later. For now? Make it work! Brought a hot-as-hell beamspam CBN to Mordor? Time to practice some trigger discipline, and MAKE. IT. WORK.

We like Making It Work. We don't like the thought of comps being able to buy seven hundred different 'Mechs and bring just exactly the right thing to every single match they play, and then proceed to b*tch out everyone else on comms for not also being in literally the exact same identical chassis/configuration the comp guy is driving because that 'Mech is "the proper choice for this particular game mode on this particular map at this particular timeslot in the day/night cycle!"

If you do like doing that? Well, you've already had your answer - FW is off that way. Go enjoy.

It's easily doable on heavies and assaults(i see plenty), then meds some are shorts and let's not talk about mixed range builds on light.

I'm sure the people in the BT storyline would have used highly specialised mechs depending on what type of ground they were going to fight if mechs and their equipements weren't that rare.

Edited by Maugged, 27 June 2016 - 01:39 PM.

[1453 R]

Maugged, on 27 June 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

It's easily doable on heavies and assaults(i see plenty), then meds some are shorts and let's not talk about mixed range builds on light.

I'm sure the people in the BT storyline would have used highly specialised mechs depending on what type of ground they were going to fight if mech and their equipement weren't that rare.

Think mebbe you quoted the wrong guy, man?

[Maugged]

The first sentence was relative to the versatile multirole mech thing you talked about, the second more a general thought.

Edited by Maugged, 27 June 2016 - 01:43 PM.