71 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

The other problem with BV is instead of fixing bad IS/Clan balance it institutionalizes it and makes it the players problem.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

The other problem with BV is instead of fixing bad IS/Clan balance it institutionalizes it and makes it the players problem.

Fixed that for ya, since tech balance is just a specific example of balance, when BV institutionalizes more than that.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 June 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

It encourages there to be further degrees of separation between poor performers and meta mechs because rather than making bad mechs better, their BV is just lowered instead which even if viable is not near as much fun.

[Lykaon]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 28 June 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

I disagree with IS XL's being death traps, they are only death traps in mechs with large side torso surface area + bad torso twist rate and bad division of surface area for the hit boxes for the side torsos.

Lykaon, on 28 June 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Fixed suicide engines. Inner Sphere XL are death traps on anything that isn't ideally shaped to mitigate risk or fast enough to use evasion over armor.

So you agree that Inner Sphere XL engines are death traps in mechs without favorable geometry or speed and agility?

Essentially your counter to my statement is just a rephrasing of my statement so we agree?

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

IS Omnimechs are a perfect example of why we still need to resolve the imbalance between engine types and discard certain lore/TT rules.

Namely, within the context of MWO Omnimech construction rules, we should not care so much about whether a 'Mech has SHS or Standard structure. Instead, we should be looking to use locked equipment to make all 'Mechs balanced and viable.

Examples:

• Hellbringer does not need ES or FF, it has lots of free tonnage and carries ECM. Well balanced 'Mech.
  
• Summoner needs ES unlocked, despite lore/TT. This single change would make the 'Mech viable (although still not top tier). The very existence of the Summoner II exemplifies why not giving this 'Mech ES structure is a mistake, and one that MWO does not need to follow.
  
• Owens/Strider should both be upgraded to DHS. SHS are just not comparable in MWO and so locking a 'Mech to SHS would hamstring it and make it automatically non-viable.

Most of the really good Omnimechs have their equipment pre-optimized. The ones that don't, suffer greatly. We don't really want to introduce a whole new class of 'Mech (IS Omnimech) that is largely non-viable. People will hate them, scream at PGI and be completely unsatisfied with what should have been a new and interesting angle of play.

As for engines, I maintain that simply changing isXL to survive ST loss is the simplest and best way to go.

BUT, many dispute this for a variety of reasons. If that is not acceptable I propose an alternative: Enforce the 3-crit rule!

Of course, this requires introducing engine crits, but I think that can be done (though with how much difficulty, I cannot say).

Following from this, make each engine crit destroyed reduce the speed, mobility and heat efficiency of the 'Mech by the percentage of engine that is lost.

So that is:
cXL - 1 engine crit lost = -10%
isXL - 1 engine crit lost = -8.33%

Handling LFE is a bit of a trick to make them fit in the continuum without obsoleting isXL/Std.. To do that I propose a further departure from lore/TT, but one that will fully integrate and balance with MWO's engine continuum.

LFE should:

• Only have 1 crit in each ST, for a total of 8 crits.
  
• Have two conditions for mech destruction: 1) 3-crit destroyed or 2) 2 side torso's destroyed.

That means that LFE would be reduced by -12.5% speed/mobility/heat efficiency per crit destroyed. Thus LFE would have different characteristics than isXL or Std. and still maintain it's lore/TT durability.

Thus would I save IS Omnimechs.

[Y E O N N E]

Metus regem, on 29 June 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yea, once they got to the Second Generation, things got a lot better for IS Omni's, but that first set had it rough....

Edit:

Yes I know she's a late generation IS Omni, but I still want it....

http://www.sarna.net...rion_(OmniMech)

I think the largest problem with IS Omnis is that the heavier 'Mechs mostly cap out at 64.8 kph. Timber Wolves run at 86.4 kph. The system is inherently broken, because 64.8 kph is not typically survivable with an XL. I think the Blackhawk-KU is the only Heavy IS Omni that matches its Clan counterparts, and it's really a Nova taking up a Heavy slot.

[El Bandito]

Only IS omni that I am interested in is the Templar. I love the way 85 ton Assaults click with me, with just the right blend of firepower, mobility and size. It is not slow for a 85 tonner, which is a plus for fixed engine mechs. Not to mention, ECM.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Templar

Production date 3062, but I can wait.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 June 2016 - 08:19 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 June 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

IS get one free unlock on one Omni since the Clans got one for the Adder.

Coralld, on 28 June 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

They can unlock the TAG like they did with the Adders Flamer.

I don't think so, look at the Dire, that thing is 100t and rather compact. Now imagen a mech 10t lighter with larger fat arms... It would be as tall as the Dire, perhaps a little more, but it would not be anywhere near as wise.
The Avatar will probably be around a similar size as the Pult.

This.

The Adder unlock was a weapon. Not equipment, not JJs, not Endo/FF or heat sinks.

I'd be 100% okay with them unlocking weapons like the TAG, but construction rules such as fixed upgrades/equipment should remain intact. Once you make one exception the floodgates open.

I mean, if you really wanted to argue, we could always lock the flamers on the Firestarter since that's what it was designed for. Might be a battlemech, but hey it was DESIGNED for that.

[Metus regem]

MauttyKoray, on 29 June 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

This.

The Adder unlock was a weapon. Not equipment, not JJs, not Endo/FF or heat sinks.

I'd be 100% okay with them unlocking weapons like the TAG, but construction rules such as fixed upgrades/equipment should remain intact. Once you make one exception the floodgates open.

I mean, if you really wanted to argue, we could always lock the flamers on the Firestarter since that's what it was designed for. Might be a battlemech, but hey it was DESIGNED for that.

I'm all for Battle Mechs having locked equipment and fixed Hard point sizes, while Omni-mechs get pod space and some fixed equipment.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 29 June 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

Only IS omni that I am interested in is the Templar. I love the way 85 ton Assaults click with me, with just the right blend of firepower, mobility and size. It is not slow for a 85 tonner, which is a plus for fixed engine mechs. Not to mention, ECM.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Templar

Production date 3062, but I can wait.

It's average speed for an 85 tonner. With only a 340, I would prefer it to be a STD engine.

MauttyKoray, on 29 June 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

This.

The Adder unlock was a weapon. Not equipment, not JJs, not Endo/FF or heat sinks.

I'd be 100% okay with them unlocking weapons like the TAG, but construction rules such as fixed upgrades/equipment should remain intact. Once you make one exception the floodgates open.

I mean, if you really wanted to argue, we could always lock the flamers on the Firestarter since that's what it was designed for. Might be a battlemech, but hey it was DESIGNED for that.

I was actually being cheeky with that unlock statement. Personally, I don't care too much whether or not they lock a particular gun in. The Strider and Owens will be absolute trash regardless, and the IS Omnis I do care about don't have any locked weapons, only JJs and DHS.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 June 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

It's average speed for an 85 tonner. With only a 340, I would prefer it to be a STD engine.

On an omnimech that can pack multiple ballistic? XL is just fine. Std is for laservomit Battlemasters or something.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 June 2016 - 11:21 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 29 June 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

On an omnimech that can pack multiple ballistic? XL is just fine. Std is for laservomit Battlemasters or something.

I mean, it might be fine for pugging, but an IS 'Mech so broad and so slow with a known XL is going to get zero'd pretty hard.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 June 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

I mean, it might be fine for pugging, but an IS 'Mech so broad and so slow with a known XL is going to get zero'd pretty hard.

If it is fine for pugging then that's just fine with me. I have played with XL Battlemasters, XL Banshees, XL Mauler, XL Awesome, and XL Highlander. I will be completely at ease with XL Templar.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 June 2016 - 05:17 AM.