42 replies to this topic

[Voidcrafter]

Yellonet, on 04 July 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

A bit of both I should say.
I guess I was stupid to think that this game mode would be anything but skirmish, because 4 other skirmish modes clearly aren't enough.

Well it is for IS - clan mechs on medium basis generally have the speed advantage.
It may seem that they have the firepower advantage too at first glance but that's a bit wrong.
Have you tried Cent-9H - AC20 + 3xSRM4 + XL engine(it should go around 88-ish with the speed tweak)?
Hunchback 4SP(5 meds or 5 Small Pulses + 2xSRM6(either artemis with less heatsinks or without +A and 2 extra HS)?
The Shadow Hawks can do well too - basically for me everything that can mount an autocanon or/and missiles works like a charm.

I deeply believe that Griffin 2N is a bit overrated - it's not a bad mech - not at all, just... few things about it:
1) It has ECM, true, but the smart crows will bring Active Probe with their streaks(then again smart crow wont take streaks as noted above).
2) Since it's huge mech with huge side torsos and ECM ordinary it's number one priority.
3) Doesn't have any noticable structure quirks, that helps a lot, and I mean A LOT.

Hunchie 4SP is the go-to basis for that mode for IS if you ask me - it can take tons of damage(literally) while doing really well, being agile and having beyond decent firepower.
Another thing - as noted above again - yea, having a light could be beneficial, but to the most part, when playing with randoms/people you don't know picking mediums is the best idea if you ask me.
You will get the game resolved by the skirmish about 90% of the times, so if your team mechs are alright - that gives you really good chances of winning more than the half of those 90%.

Hope that helped.

[justcallme A S H]

^ excellent points there.


Completed the scouting challenge in about 30-35 games yesterday. I'll admit I ran a streakcrow twice to finish mastering one.
The other games were either in a NVA, ACH or a SHC. None of the guys I was playing with, mostly PUGs, brought Streaks either. Hell I was even running the trial ACH and one guy was running a ACH with no armour and a UAC10 (hilarious, as it dominated). Games were relatively easy & not because of Clan OP or Steak IMBA... I noticed it was something else.

It was a clear case of:
1. Zero communication/team work. Often the IS teams (even 4-mans) are 2-3 squares apart when a fight breaks out, so once you are 1 down that fast, it's game over.
2. Bad builds that are not designed for a fast/quick brawl. You see some people running around with HOT builds that are far more suited to a longer engagement (2-4mins in FP/QP). Not a 60 sec or less brawl.
eg 1. You don't need 5 tonnes of SRM ammo, drop a tonne/add a heatsink.
eg. 2 Drop a laser, add a heatsink.

I saw that many griffins or shadowhawks overheating/shutting down on Polar Highlands, which really is not that easy to do, but it happened most games.
Even see people running around with UAC5s... I mean come on, what good is that going to do?

Case in point:
I found the std old 10SPL Nova way too hot for a Scouting brawl. So dropped to 9SPL, worked better.
Then I decided to do something silly - NOVA - worked even better than 9SPL IMO, shreads anything that is open and the brawl is so short you never use more than a tonne of ammo, hence add another heatsink.

Edited by R31Nismoid, 04 July 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[Simbacca]

I still say the mech tonnage cap should be 50 (or even 45), instead of 55. It is supposed to be scouting.

[feeWAIVER]

Brain Cancer, on 04 July 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

The problem is that IS pilots tend to bring the utterly wrong tools to the party.

No, the problem is that many Clan mediums and lights have structure buffs like they are IS, but with lighter weapons that do more damage, and more of them. Period.

[feeWAIVER]

I'm seeing a lot of hidden-teir clanners chiming in on balance.
Case in point:

R31Nismoid, on 04 July 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

I saw that many griffins or shadowhawks overheating/shutting down on Polar Highlands, which really is not that easy to do, but it happened most games.

The fact that these mechs are overheating frequently on Polar, and you aren't dead, might tell you something about Clan vs IS tech.

[Pariah Devalis]

feeWAIVER, on 04 July 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

I'm seeing a lot of hidden-teir clanners chiming in on balance.
Case in point:



The fact that these mechs are overheating frequently on Polar, and you aren't dead, might tell you something about Clan vs IS tech.

It might. It might also tell you something about how piss poor some people play when they don't have 11 other people to hide behind and actually need to deal with a direct confrontation. Correlation does not imply causation.

Edit: Also, lol. IS Heat caps are higher than Clan heat caps, and the teensy tiny heat dissipation boost Clan Dubs have does not compensate for that. Splatcrows redline all the time, too.


What people who are unaccustomed to scouting may not realize is you cannot treat the fights the same way as one can in 12v12. You cannot afford to stand off and snipe. You need to be aggressive when the fight breaks out, and you need to work together to get that numerical advantage ASAP. You also need to know good dueling techniques because you will often be fighting one or two mechs at the same time and need to balance your heat management and damage spreading, while also putting accurate shots on the target.

I see far too many pilots get flustered when actually forced into a brutal fight. I get it. Brawls are a swirling mass of death and adrenaline. Hell, back when my Clan was active, we consistently found duel training the hardest for recruits to master, yet it offered some of the richest rewards in every game environment. It can be hard to adapt to it, and those who thrive in a brawl will dominate those who do not.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 July 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

feeWAIVER, on 04 July 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

I'm seeing a lot of hidden-teir clanners chiming in on balance.

I wasn't talking balance. I was talking inefficient builds that are carrying too much ammo in favour of heat capacity. That is not balance, that is building a mech for a particular purpose.

I have mechs (IS and Clan) build just for scouting and depending on what map/mode. So that I have the best tool for what I expect to come at me. Not always correct, but that's the variable in the game.


Seeing as though you are talking balance and saying Clan is more heat efficient... This thread will likely take an interesting path.

Edited by R31Nismoid, 04 July 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Pariah Devalis, on 04 July 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

I see far too many pilots get flustered when actually forced into a brutal fight. I get it. Brawls are a swirling mass of death and adrenaline. Hell, back when my Clan was active, we consistently found duel training the hardest for recruits to master, yet it offered some of the richest rewards in every game environment. It can be hard to adapt to it, and those who thrive in a brawl will dominate those who do not.

Could not be more accurate if you tried.

When I first got into MWO there was a big focus on training in the unit I was in. The brawling part was pretty challenging and taught some excellent techniques to shield components/spread damage and going as far as to hide the good leg from the enemy in the event you are legged.

I see far too many people showing the GOOD leg rather than trying to shield with the dead one to let you live longer. If they do know how to do it, they are just getting flustered and forgetting.

I love brawling, I'm an assault pilot from the start - tis good fun. Doing it in scouting just means it's in much more mobile mechs. People think getting legged means it's over, it's far from it!

[Big Tin Man]

Yellonet, on 04 July 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

It's sad though that this game mode also has to become a skirmish/TDM

If only PGI made collecting the intel worthwhile...

I collected 9 intels in a Pirates Bane and escaped without firing a shot. Match score of ~20, 40k cbills with premium time, hero bonus and tournament supporter bonus all running.

What the hell is the point of collecting intel again? Collecting intel doesn't reward you. I can clear 200k and easily get a qualifying match score by playing deathball and ignore intel completely.

[Blackfang]

My Wolverine 7K is great at chewing up Stormcrow's 3 x SRM6 with artemis and 3 x Medium pulse laser. Requires a little bit of heat micromanagement but the damage output is tremendous. Really requires the IS team to work together though, do not go running off to collect data on your own, that can happen after you've killed the enemy (if gathering Intel not protecting it).

4 x 55t mediums setup for brawling do plenty of damage, Hunchies, cents, wolverines and griffins are all great at this

[Naglinator]

Timberwolf and I dropped with 2 random wolf pugs about 12 times in a row in scouting. Won them all. We brought pulse Nova's. Now the main reason we kept winning was a) you IS boys pugged drop when you did group drop there was no communication and we were able to pick off lone wolves(hehe wolf) c) Just a weird assortment of mechs against us. One drop against us was a ER Large Locust, AC2 cicada, wolverine and a gryphon. Not the best drop...

So hop onto the davion/steiner/frr TS, group up with some folks, share builds and TALK during drops. I mean it's fun to win 4-0 back to back to back, but only for so long.

[Pariah Devalis]

Naglinator, on 05 July 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Timberwolf and I dropped with 2 random wolf pugs about 12 times in a row in scouting. Won them all. We brought pulse Nova's. Now the main reason we kept winning was a) you IS boys pugged drop when you did group drop there was no communication and we were able to pick off lone wolves(hehe wolf) c) Just a weird assortment of mechs against us. One drop against us was a ER Large Locust, AC2 cicada, wolverine and a gryphon. Not the best drop...

So hop onto the davion/steiner/frr TS, group up with some folks, share builds and TALK during drops. I mean it's fun to win 4-0 back to back to back, but only for so long.

Of the 7 drops I did today, totally soloing it up, I got 4-kill games in four of them. I only lost a single game because I was legged and could not make it to the DZ for extraction - and even then I made sure each and every defender died before the timer zeroed out. It isn't rocket science, though. What kills is a lack of communication and teamwork. That, and a palpable sense of unease that many players seem to have when faced with an actual brawl.

There is an in game CHAT function. There is an in game VoiP function (assuming you didn't chop your nose off to spite your face by disabling it). Hell, there is even a command wheel that can give valuable intel. You do not need to be on an organized TS server to win. Just communicate, lead by example, and don't fold under a stiff breeze. Focus, work together, and assume everyone will be shooting for your legs. Because most will. Why make it easier for them by shooting at their torsos? Kneecap the kneecappers.

It might be dirty, but by god is it effective.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 July 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Brain Cancer, on 04 July 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

The problem is that IS pilots tend to bring the utterly wrong tools to the party.

A pack of IS 55-ton brawler goons will chew up a Stormcrow pack and spit out the scrappy remains before looking for more.

I've had such gems as stock-engine Urbanmechs, LRM 10 Oxides, and plenty of 35-tonners that don't realize that we're going to have at least 1-2 around designed specifically to splat them with 30 Streaks a few times until they explode. An easy kill or possibly two later and we're gnawing on your rusty metal corpses for the win. It's a lot easier for Clanners to make good Scouting choices in part because there's fewer bad choices, even if we're using the aforementioned 35-tonners that are normally deadly in QP. Because Clanners don't have to fear the Streaks.

This - my Shawk absolutely eats Crows alive. I mean, I still go down to four Pulse Crows, but Streakcrows can't keep up with that damage output, especially once their innards are opened up.

[MischiefSC]

Problem isn't team v team matches, it's pug v pug. Streaks make you mediocre - it lifts a terribad to mediocre and drops a talented pilot to just above mediocre.

However most players on both sides are terribad. Especially pugs. So one side has a tool that doesn't require aiming to get 100% damage applied, the other side has to aim. When both sides are bad at aiming that makes the side with streaks fat superior. Even when pugging with teams the skillcrow terribads are more useful to a 3man or even 2 good pugs and 2 skillcrows vs 2 good IS pugs and 2 terribads.

Make sense? Skews averages. It elevates the terribad Clan pugs above what they could do if they had to aim to hit people.

Hence the problem. Plus 2 skillcrows plus 2 good pugs is a solid challenge to a 4man in Griffins. Skillcrows are not an easy kill in any medium and they make taking lights pointless. Pretending they're helpless like an LRM boat as 20m is disingenuous. They're puking up alphas with 100% accuracy the moment you're within 400m. That's 1 or 2 shots, 120pts of damage, before you're in flamer range. Spread or not that's enough to leave you 1 shot to leg by the Nova with them.

That's the point. It carries Clan bads and Skews averages.

[Felio]

I did some scouting for the event and found that unless the attackers get involved in a brawl too early, they pretty much win because one light pilot can time his approach to enter the extraction zone at the last second (or less, in some cases).

[Big Tin Man]

I haven't looked at the Trial mechs in a while, but IIRC the IS can choose from two of the absolute worst mechs in the game, the Trenchbucket w/LRM's and Commando? GG. Every stock clan mech is better than these two by a wide margin.

[Insufficient Skill]

The problem with scouting is that it's called scouting. Call it 4on4 brawl or whatever. Or give proper rewards to scouting - and gone would be the current meta that revolves around brawling.

An additional problem: Opposed to regular matches, it makes, from a Meta point of view, no sense to bring anything than the heaviest mechs allowed. So, it becomes a 4on4 for 55 ton mechs in reality.

[Baulven]

If each point collected was worth 4 match score for each person on the team 3k cbills for the person that picked it up and 1.5k for everyone else on the team people would actually like scouting. Hell people might actually try to collect points of all things!

Edited by Baulven, 05 July 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

The only reason I even get in my skill crow anymore is if I've played 2-3 games to find the enemy team running avoidance (locusts that don't fight, but cap and try to ninja the drop ship). And honestly, this is after weeks upon weeks of seeing "skillcrow wins again" kind of comments posted in chat, even when there were no Stormcrows on my team!

Seriously. It's hilariously sad how the Skillcrow, a mediocre mech whenever there isn't something 35 tons or less running around, has become this all encompassing harbinger of doom.

[MischiefSC]

Lord0fHats, on 05 July 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

The only reason I even get in my skill crow anymore is if I've played 2-3 games to find the enemy team running avoidance (locusts that don't fight, but cap and try to ninja the drop ship). And honestly, this is after weeks upon weeks of seeing "skillcrow wins again" kind of comments posted in chat, even when there were no Stormcrows on my team!

Seriously. It's hilariously sad how the Skillcrow, a mediocre mech whenever there isn't something 35 tons or less running around, has become this all encompassing harbinger of doom.

Again. Problem isn't good team v good team.

Problem is that skillcrow makes terribads mediocre, so good pugs have mediocre teammates instead of terribad ones vs IS terribads sandbagging their good pugs.

It raises terribad Clanners to mediocre which shifts balance significantly.