15 replies to this topic

[QueenBlade]

Quote

TOURNAMENT STRUCTURE

REGIONAL QUALIFIERS

• Round Robin format
  
• 1 Match of Conquest on Canyon Networks
  
• Drop Decks must meet the 2/2/2/2 weight class restriction
  
• Total wins is used for seeding the Regional Finals

REGIONAL FINALS

• Top 5 teams from each region will play in a Best-of-3 series of matches in a Double-Elimination Bracket.
  
• Map/Mode per match is still TBD
  
• The winner of the bracket becomes the Regional Champion and is invited to the World Championship Finals.

This weekend, I noticed something new on the standings page. An asterisk on RANK. Scroll to the bottom of the page and you will see this.

Quote

* Rank based on win percentage and number of games played.

Edited by QueenBlade, 10 July 2016 - 07:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

It's not that important in the sense that only the top tier teams care.

It's not like PGI is really putting much thought or weight into their decision making.

[PhoenixFire55]

Well because double elimination between 5 teams totally makes sense ...
Or because number of games played is going to be so different for all teams ...

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 11 July 2016 - 03:49 AM.

[TheMagician]

Well, in the end, each team will have played the same # of matches, so it won't be important. How ties are sorted out, is still important.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

TheMagician, it depends on how you read "win percentage and number of games played" and how they handle reconciling the records of the teams that withdraw from the tournament.

As I understand it right now, if a team withdraws, all of their opponents are awarded a "win" (even if they lost a previous match), but how does that count towards "games played"? Will it be different for the teams that played against them before they withdrew vs. teams that were scheduled to play them later in the season?

Does a scheduled match that ends in a forfeit before the match start (but not an ultimate DQ or withdrawal) count as a win for the victor? Probably, "yes." Does it count as a "game played"?

It is very likely that every team will not have played the same number of matches, and probably not as a result of anything within their control.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 11 July 2016 - 03:15 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 11 July 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

Does a scheduled match that ends in a forfeit before the match start (but not an ultimate DQ or withdrawal) count as a win for the victor? Probably, "yes." Does it count as a "game played"?

It clearly does in standings and it would have been idiotic if it didn't, because ranking teams based on who was lucky enough to play a bunch of teams that withdrawn before they gave up on the tourney is kinda lame. This "stealth" change clearly changes nothing, because if a tie will happen in the end of preliminaries then tied teams will have identical amount of wins, identical amount of matches played and thus identical win %. Once again it only shows that amount of brain process PGI puts in this tourney = 0.0%. As Magician said, how ties are sorted out is important and still unclear.

[Lukoi Banacek]

It is pretty clear how they are counting played wins, withdrawn teams and forfeits. All are wins as if they had been played.

So in the end, it will come down to how many times a team lost to a team that has not withdrawn. And then, as others have noted, the all important tie issue will get hashed out. The current top "whatever" is only a partial indicator until all teams have played through the entire qualifying round.

Tbh, spending alot of time trying to further refine who is number one, or number five etc, would be based on some subjective measures in the meantime and its not an area PGI would get to that would satisfy all that many teams so why waste the time and energy. As Mags noted, it all boils down to your final score at the end anyway.

[Rushin Roulette]

Lukoi Banacek, on 12 July 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

It is pretty clear how they are counting played wins, withdrawn teams and forfeits. All are wins as if they had been played.

So in the end, it will come down to how many times a team lost to a team that has not withdrawn. And then, as others have noted, the all important tie issue will get hashed out. The current top "whatever" is only a partial indicator until all teams have played through the entire qualifying round.

Tbh, spending alot of time trying to further refine who is number one, or number five etc, would be based on some subjective measures in the meantime and its not an area PGI would get to that would satisfy all that many teams so why waste the time and energy. As Mags noted, it all boils down to your final score at the end anyway.

Actually, you are incorrect with that assumption.

There are 2 distinctive ways of seeing which matches wer won/lost due to playing and winning/losing and the games which were won/lost due to one team forfeiting (be it not enough player, team resigning or team being disqualified). You can tell the difference if you log into your dashboard/schedule where you also upload the screenshots and the teamleader can anounce re-scheuled matches.



Teams which are removed from the tournemant in any way automatically get every game result changed to Forfeited, even for teams which they have already played. This can mean that a team may even get a los removed and changed to a win in the overall standings if they had played against a resigning team and had initially lost. The actual list of which team is in what position can only be effected by teams staying in the tournament but forfeiting individual matches.

[VVonka]

This is really irrelevant. At the end when all teams have same amount of games played counting number of wins is = to win %. With rescheduling teams have different number of games played at certain points therefore PGI decided to show win % to make the current standings a more accurate representation.


As I have spoke about several times (and in my thread) the tie rules are undefined and the number of teams they are assigning a top 5 rank to is changing. At one point they had 3 teams tied at number 1 and still had a number 2 team. This allowed 7 teams to all have a top 5 position.

If they want to avoid conflict then they need to announce tie rules well in advance. Those tie rules should govern which teams move through and the rankings of the teams that do move through (incase of a tie within the top 5) as the next round seems to be seed based.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Rushin Roulette, on 12 July 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

Actually, you are incorrect with that assumption.

There are 2 distinctive ways of seeing which matches wer won/lost due to playing and winning/losing and the games which were won/lost due to one team forfeiting (be it not enough player, team resigning or team being disqualified). You can tell the difference if you log into your dashboard/schedule where you also upload the screenshots and the teamleader can anounce re-scheuled matches.



Teams which are removed from the tournemant in any way automatically get every game result changed to Forfeited, even for teams which they have already played. This can mean that a team may even get a los removed and changed to a win in the overall standings if they had played against a resigning team and had initially lost. The actual list of which team is in what position can only be effected by teams staying in the tournament but forfeiting individual matches.

Rushin, I assumed nothing. Everything I stated is fact. Reread my comments. Yes, you can see the difference between a forfeit, a loss and forfeits due to withdrawal, but my point wasnt that you couldnt. My point was that they impact our records the same way.

At the very end of the tournament, your total matches adjudicated will be identical to every other team's that stayed in the tourney, so losses will determine the rankings ultimately, with ties being the hanging chad PGI still needs to define.

You literally just reiterated with what I said in a different way, confirming what I said.

[Deathlike]

If PGI learned ANYTHING from their BETA tourney that occurred 2 years ago (with this infamous tie or two), they would've remembered this.

Of course, this is PGI, so lol no.

[Rushin Roulette]

Lukoi Banacek, on 12 July 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

At the very end of the tournament, your total matches adjudicated will be identical to every other team's that stayed in the tourney, so losses will determine the rankings ultimately, with ties being the hanging chad PGI still needs to define.

This is the part which is not absolutely true what I meant with my post.
Not all teams which stay in the tournament would be able to play every game. Sometimes one team may be forced to throw a particular match due to not bein 8 players at the time (for whatever reason... there are enough). However if this team plays every other match in their schedule regularily but looses them, then the standings would be affected by this.

Lets say for example, both our teams are in the same continental league and we are both matched up with team XYZ;
Smoke adders play XYZ and win
331 does not play XYZ because they are not able to field 8 players and are forced to forfeit that particular match.

If at the end of the season both our teams would theoretically have the same amount of wins and losses and no other team has more, then you will be placed 1st and we would be second. Purely because you had more games played going into the scoring.
Ranking is decided on win/loss with the tiebreaker being amount of games won vs. forfeit wins. The game mode is Conquest, so the possibility of ties has been completely eliminated from the standings. You can loose all your mechs in a match, but still win the game in caps if the enemy team can not neutralise in time.

[Deathlike]

Rushin Roulette, on 12 July 2016 - 08:45 PM, said:

Ranking is decided on win/loss with the tiebreaker being amount of games won vs. forfeit wins. The game mode is Conquest, so the possibility of ties has been completely eliminated from the standings. You can loose all your mechs in a match, but still win the game in caps if the enemy team can not neutralise in time.

That's inaccurate.

If both teams never cap (can happen) or cap simultaneously (possible, but timing would need to be perfect, so it's unlikely), then a tie can actually exist... however improbable that is.

The tie in this instance though is referring to standings.. the "head to head matchup" so to speak.

It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to have TWO teams to have a perfect record. What has to occur for a tiebreaker is "who you beat". This is a common protocol instituted in sports for seedings/ranking. Very likely, multiple teams will have a loss, or two, and the mere difference is to actually determine "which win is better".

Even a basic "the overall sum of the W-L of the beaten teams" is usually sufficient (so let's humor that SJR and EmP have 1 loss - a match loss to 228 that has a better win% or W-L record would have more of an impact/effect/weight compared to a loss vs AS that has a slightly worse win%/W-L record.

Tiebreakers are needed for a reason.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 July 2016 - 12:11 AM.

[VVonka]

Rushin, you are wrong. A forfeit counts as a loss and game played.


A team that has 30 matches to play, plays 20 of them and has 10 forfeits is still considered to have 30 games played.


This isnt rocket science, at the end of the tournament EVERY SINGLE TEAM will have exact same amount of games played. That is, for the purpose of ranking, their wins and losses when added together will all equal the same number.

The problem here is currently we have undefeated teams ranked by games played because their win% is all the same. If, at the end of the tournament, we are left with teams with the same amount of wins this means they also have the same amount of loses and therefore identical records. One would assume head to head can be used as a tie breaker but the frustrating point is we are left to assume that when it should of been defined in draft 1 of the rules. How to handle a 3 way tie where the teams all went 1-1 against each other is in no capacity addressed.

[Lukoi Banacek]

At least VVonka gets it.

[lpmagic]

it's the purple hat, it helps with all this mathy stuff......