28 replies to this topic

[deathlord]

Here's a clip from a match on the MWOWC tournament client played on 20160709. The hit in question is on the Jenner IIC at around 6 seconds.

Potato quality: https://youtu.be/y9J_Tn7qt40
Source quality: https://www.dropbox....itreg2.mp4?dl=0 (use download button)

There's actually a lot going on here, so watch in slow mo.

I fire two gauss and two CERPPC at the CT of the Jenner. If you're going frame by frame, you'd see that my rangefinder jumps from 32 meters to 68 at exactly the same moment my PPCs go on cooldown, indicating that I may have pulled the shot high. However, the PPCs visually appear to impact the Jenner, and its paperdoll flashes across the LT, CT, and RT, suggesting a solid CT hit with splash to both side torsos. The Gauss rifles are firing at the torso reticle, so those certainly hit in either case. There is hit feedback on the crosshair.

So, worst case it's 30 damage to the CT. Best it's 50. The JR7 has taken some amount of front CT armor damage already, so at the very most it could have 43 points of armor remaining (more likely several points less). The target condition indicator drops from 57% to 48% on the hit; assuming the JR7 entered the game at max armor, and my structure calculations are correct, it should have 407 max HP, translating to a ~36 damage point hit. Wat.

I suppose if it started at some value less than max armor that could make 9% be worth just 30, indicating a double gauss hit with no crit, but I don't want to do more math now. The target paperdoll indicates only a single shade change in CT armor condition. Seems wrong even if only the two gauss hit. Or even if convergence caused one gauss round to hit the CT and one the LT, the LT armor condition should have visibly degraded on the target readout.

I was boned in that situation anyway, barring a full hit with an ammo explosion crit in the Jenner's CT. Bleh.

Edited by deathlord, 11 July 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Par for the course.

[Lily from animove]

Line of sight is not Line of fire, it is easy that aimign next to a mech slightly still makes it hit the mech. Projectiles don'T fly on your line of sight.

alsop, PPC's are in your arms, they have a slight delay between where the crosshair is and where they aim, so it may be at the moment you shot the arm position still shoots at the jenner.

the vid is very mess, probably too messy to properly see what happened where exactly.

But for me it currently looks like one gauss missed to the left, the other hit, as well as one PPC flying by the upper left, yet the other was hitting. that could explain the roughly 9% change by 30damage. % are rouned, so its not an exact indictaor, and i the pilot saved some amror here and there (especially on the head) that 9% may eb very accurately as fa as accurate full% get shown. So looks like your aim was off, yet the line of fire made your right side weapons still hit the jenner.

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 July 2016 - 06:24 AM.

[deathlord]

https://www.dropbox....itreg2.mp4?dl=0

There's the much-clearer source file. Use the download button; the embedded player is of even worse quality.

[Lily from animove]

at least one gauss clearly missed, not sure entirely about the ppc, but I still think it also missed

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 July 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[deathlord]

The object you have marked as missing gauss is a spark from damage hitting me from the Oxide off to my right. You can follow that object as it appears from the right side of the screen a few frames earlier.

The "missing ppc" object is simply part of the impact visual effects. Advance a few more frames and you'll see it expand into the blue cloud.

[kesmai]

i can not clearly see any connected shots in this video.
you did not hit them, which is possible given the short range to the target and the width your weapons are apart on your mech.
take the speed of the jenner and 2 times a 100ms lag into account this is quite possible.

Edited by ARP Haruna, 11 July 2016 - 07:02 AM.

[deathlord]

I clearly did hit with something, since the Jenner registered 9% damage on it's condition % indicator and there was nobody else shooting at him.

[kesmai]

deathlord, on 11 July 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

I clearly did hit with something, since the Jenner registered 9% damage on it's condition % indicator and there was nobody else shooting at him.

yup you are right. and i can´t calculate how its 34whatever damage. maybe you hit with the ppc´s and did some critical?
either way i still can not see you hitting with a full 60 dmg.

Edited by ARP Haruna, 11 July 2016 - 07:11 AM.

[TLBFestus]

But this can't happen in a eSport can it?

[M T]

TLBFestus, on 11 July 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

But this can't happen in a eSport can it?

Sadly It can. The game is 'as is' whether this happens or not, its part of how the program works and we will have to accept it.

At least, this is how PGI can talk themselves out of it

[Kuritaclan]

Humm there is something going on.


4:01 Don't know. Maybe the wall or another issue.

[Krivvan]

The only shot that you can argue should've been a hit is at 0:06 (the first dual gauss did hit and registered damage). It seems the PPCs did hit the CT and they registered damage appropriately.

When you freeze frame it (https://dl.dropboxus...segfawsecte.png), it seems from player's perspective the Gauss barely connected, but failed due to HSR comparisons and the fact that it was close. MWO, to my knowledge, does not operate on a full "believe the client" HSR system, although it's biased towards the client. Overwatch, for example, is a game that always believes the client's perspective, but that game also has people complaining more about being shot after already being in cover. It's a tradeoff. You will never get a perfect hitreg system in any online game right now.

All the other shots seem to make sense when I go frame by frame though.

Lily from animove, on 11 July 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

at least one gauss clearly missed, not sure entirely about the ppc, but I still think it also missed

It appears those are a part of the hitting PPC's animations. When his camera turns you can see there is no hit behind the mech. https://dl.dropboxus...0/ppcsgauss.mp4

Edited by Krivvan, 11 July 2016 - 12:31 PM.

[Krivvan]

TLBFestus, on 11 July 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

But this can't happen in a eSport can it?

Every shooter, "eSport" game or not, has a downside in their HSR system. It's the nature of living with ping times. Games have to predict movement ahead of time and believe some player views over others and stuff in order for the magic of online gaming to work.

Different games weigh the slider in different locations. Overwatch will mainly believe the player that is shooting to the detriment of the player being hit. In high ping matches in Overwatch, you're more likely to get shot while in your view you were clearly out of sight.

MWO operates somewhere in between, but to my knowledge has some bias towards the shooter, but not total. This means that sometimes a shot looks unfair to the shooter, and sometimes it's unfair to the one being shot. The problem is exacerbated a bit by the fact that MWO has multiple hitboxes and damage locations on a mech unlike most shooters.

Demonstration in Overwatch: https://youtu.be/vHO6Ky-w0UQ?t=545
Demonstration in Battlefield: https://youtu.be/B40u12etY_U?t=686

Edited by Krivvan, 11 July 2016 - 12:53 PM.

[deathlord]

I also sent in a support ticket about this issue. If any staff is reading this, the game ID was 311615070092161226. It would be helpful if someone with access could examine that game's log and report what the server decided happened.

I know that literally every single player of this game has raged about hitreg. I frequently experience phantom hits on the receiving end, where I get cockpit shake and impact sounds but suffer no damage (from a shot that was within damage range), and I know the player on the other end wants to smash their mouse. Most threads about it come down to "video or we don't care," though, so when I caught that rare video showing a convergence of issues, it seemed worth sharing.

I don't think the incident cost us the game. If I'd killed the Jenner, the Kodiak would have gone down with one hit to CT, and I would have had a chance to duel the Oxide which was in unknown condition; even a full 50 point hit to the Jenner's CT plus crits almost certainly wouldn't have quite killed it, though. I just want the game to be a little more satisfying to play and less frustrating due to conflicting feedback.

[deathlord]

Kuritaclan, on 11 July 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

Humm there is something going on.


4:01 Don't know. Maybe the wall or another issue.

That's pretty severe. There's clearly lag in play, as your crosshair lights up after the lasers finish, but the damage applied is not consistent with the hit shown. And you're clear of the wall compared to the previous shot which was partially blocked. We should be highlighting videos like this whenever possible, though it must be noted yours is the public client/server instead of the tournament.

[Kotev]

It happend to me in FP, 2 times 47 dmg laser alphas point blank at oxide ct and only dmg it received was bright yellow torso.

[Tamerlin]

Here's one of the best video's I've found dealing with lag, HSR and stuff. Yeah, it's about Overwatch, but still relevent.

[PitchBlackYeti]

I think the most possible explanation for the partial miss at 0:06 is that due to lag/HSR issues, even if the jenner was in your crosshairs, the weapons didnt converge at it but at the terrain behind causing part of the salvo to miss. I experience it quite often on "wide" mechs like BJ or JM. When leading a fast moving target often only guns from one side hit the target because game assumes I was aiming at the mountain 300m behind...

One of the reasons I mount the PPCs in the torsi of my BJ instead of arms (I don't like the asymmetrical meta with both PPCs in 1 arm )

Edited by PitchBlackYeti, 21 July 2016 - 04:12 AM.

[Luscious Dan]

Convergence could definitely be the culprit, which is why I tend to argue that weapons should converge at the range of your locked target, if you have one. I guess that would make UAVs harder to hit though, since you often have a mech locked when you unlock your arms and pew pew the UAV.