139 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

I would think developers (especially publishers) would WANT to produce more established IPs.

Making a game is expensive and time consuming. This makes new IPs risky because the dev/publisher has to deal with a level of uncertainty on whether a new game will become popular and they will make a profit.

Existing IPs that are/were popular would offer a bit more security because it was well loved and there is a nostalgia factor involved with the IP. This carries less risk than coming up with a brand new IP that no one has heard of and just hoping it catches on.

You see this in both gaming and Hollywood all the time. That is why there are so many remakes of old movies from the past and when why there is a successful film or movie, it is sequeled all to hell.

Marvel movies, Call of Duty games, etc... Are all low risk high yield IPs that will be ran into the ground with sequels to milk as much money as possible.

Actually, if there was a real reason MechWarrior wasn't made earlier and more frequently, it's probably because it wasn't a twitch shooter. It was probably lumped into the whole fantasy simulator genre which has laid stagnant for years (like Freespace, Wing Commander, etc...)


Tl;dr
I don't think devs avoided MechWarrior because it was an established IP, they avoided it because it belonged in a dead genre and wasn't a CoD or Battlefield clone. The fact we have it now as MechWarrior Online (and Battletech) is because gaming is taking advantage of the whole nostalgia cash safety blanket that Hollywood has relied on for years.

Heck, PGI has demonstrated that no matter how mediocre you treat a franchise, no matter how much people complain of forums... they still spend money on an IP.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Heck, PGI has demonstrated that no matter how mediocre you treat a franchise, no matter how much people complain of forums... they still spend money on an IP.

That's the same with most IPs when dealing with nostalgia. I think they know the risk is lower, so they also don't quite worry as much about the effort either.

In some ways, you could think of MWO as the Transformers of games lol. A mediocre treatment of a nostalgic franchise that people endlessly bash, yet makes money and keeps cranking out sequels (each with less effort than the movie before it).

Well, maybe MWO isnt THAT bad. Lol....maybe :/

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Making a game is expensive and time consuming. This makes new IPs risky because the dev/publisher has to deal with a level of uncertainty on whether a new game will become popular and they will make a profit.

It depends, new IPs or IPs they started allow a developer more creativity, and we've seen a decent amount of new IPs over the past few years (Dark Souls, Dishonored, Borderlands, etc). The only established IPs that continued on were the hugely successful ones like CoD and BF.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 July 2016 - 08:40 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

It depends, new IPs or IPs they started allow a developer more creativity, and we've seen a decent amount of new IPs over the past few years. The only established IPs that continued on were the hugely successful ones like CoD and BF.

and those benefited as much from mass marketing as any actual quality or loyalty to franchises. Kind of like the Transformers movies.

But how many new "original" IPs really take off? Sure hunger games made a decent movie franchise. Did anyone even try to make a game? Divergent? Even the Marvel and Transformers franchises have largely failed on the game front.

Star Wars still soldiers on in spite of sub par games, mostly. Because, big pockets backing it, and nostalgia. Other IPs really don't take off cross platform, at all (Alien, Robocop, etc). The only real knock on the Battletech/MW IP? Comparative niche size. If people don't see potential for the next WoW, BF, Farcry, etc, then the bigs don't want to be bothered.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

It depends, new IPs or IPs they started allow a developer more creativity, and we've seen a decent amount of new IPs over the past few years. The only established IPs that continued on were the hugely successful ones like CoD and BF.

I'm still not really convinced the creativity angle is the real sticking point for developers.

We do see new IPs popping up in gaming, but the real AAA style titles seem to hold tightly to the twitch FPS genre. The biggest game of the year so far might be Overwatch, a new IP but a twitch arena shooter. Titanfall was the last big thing. A FPS twitch shooter as well (but with robots).

Multiplayer also seems to be the big drive in new games. It seems like established franchises like Mass Effect have to be more shooter orientated and have multiplayer support. It's no longer OK for Elder Scrolls to be a single player game, it needs to be online.

In a way, traditionally MechWarrior has been note single player (although it did have a good multiplayer offering as well), and more simulator than arena shooter. That's why I don't think I'm that surprised that our MechWarrior title we are playing is both E-Sport shooter orientated and Multiplayer only. Sign of the times I suppose.

I think we are lucky there is a nice indie scene in gaming that seems to give us some nice variety to an otherwise rather formulaic gaming scene.

Ultimately I think...THINK...they are less worried about creative expression and more concerned about making a title with a more guaranteed profit. I don't feel MechWarrior gave them that kind of confidence for a long while and when it did, they try to make it conform to the gaming norm to squeeze as much money out of it as possible.

Its just how I see it I suppose. Of course I am far from an expert, but it just feels that way. Gaming feels that way.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

Star Wars still soldiers on in spite of sub par games, mostly. Because, big pockets backing it, and nostalgia.

Also interesting to point out that the big Star Wars game was Battlefront. An arena style shooter (although big arena) that was multiplayer only. *sigh*

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

But how many new "original" IPs really take off? Sure hunger games made a decent movie franchise. Did anyone even try to make a game? Divergent? Even the Marvel and Transformers franchises have largely failed on the game front.

Comparing movies IPs versus game IPs is not really the same, game IPs have a lot more room to grow and expand a universe unlike most films. Star Wars and Star Trek are one of the few franchises that have managed to pull that off well and one of those was successful more because of the TV series than the films.

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm still not really convinced the creativity angle is the real sticking point for developers.

I'm willing to bet it is one for developers, risk and money is normally the worry of a publisher.

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

We do see new IPs popping up in gaming, but the real AAA style titles seem to hold tightly to the twitch FPS genre.

And yet we just a new IP pop up with that genre, Overwatch. Let's not forget the explosion of DOTA and LoL as well which are not even a decade old (well technically DOTA is, but I doubt it is anywhere near the same as the original).

[MeiSooHaityu]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

I'm willing to bet it is one for developers, risk and money is normally the worry of a publisher.

Don't forget that very often Publishers control the Developers. They determine what they make, the budget, scope, when it must be released by, etc.. That is often why publishers buy developers, to extend their control even further.

Publishers call the shots.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

Don't forget that very often Publishers control the Developers. They determine what they make, the budget, scope, when it must be released by, etc.. That is often why publishers buy developers, to extend their control even further.

Publishers call the shots.

They don't determine everything, but they do control a lot, and they definitely had a hand in the MW franchise being dormant for so long, but that isn't the reason developers would also avoid it. After all PGI was the one that wanted to create MW5 and sought out a publisher.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 July 2016 - 09:09 AM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

And yet we just a new IP pop up with that genre, Overwatch. Let's not forget the explosion of DOTA and LoL as well which are not even a decade old (well technically DOTA is, but I doubt it is anywhere near the same as the original).

We lost a lot of great people to overwatch...

But anyway, you brought up dota and lol and stuff...

This is kinda off topic, but onetime I played a really cool battletech moba ums on wc3!

Anyway... Where was I going with that... Oh yah, wait i got side tracked again... Ok back to overwatch... And LoL, one appeal many casuals have is they can fight bots! i am sure the underhive players would love to have multiplayer Co-Op in mwo where they can fight bots all day long!

I bet fighting bots would bring in a massive amount of players. A lot of good can come from making a campaign story! And I am sure Pgi can make a lot of money if they did this... Its the final piece of the puzzle that can bring back the casuals while keeping the game up for consideration of an E-Sports.

They need to stop considering power draw ghost heat 2.0!!! And instead bring in Bots and story campaign!!! Then the casuals will love alphaing vomit!

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

Don't forget that very often Publishers control the Developers. They determine what they make, the budget, scope, when it must be released by, etc.. That is often why publishers buy developers, to extend their control even further.

Publishers call the shots.

And this is why I hate EA now... They have turned a lot of my beloved games in to utter dog sh!t...

Edited by Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, 12 July 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[Johnny Z]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm still not really convinced the creativity angle is the real sticking point for developers.

We do see new IPs popping up in gaming, but the real AAA style titles seem to hold tightly to the twitch FPS genre. The biggest game of the year so far might be Overwatch, a new IP but a twitch arena shooter. Titanfall was the last big thing. A FPS twitch shooter as well (but with robots).

Multiplayer also seems to be the big drive in new games. It seems like established franchises like Mass Effect have to be more shooter orientated and have multiplayer support. It's no longer OK for Elder Scrolls to be a single player game, it needs to be online.

In a way, traditionally MechWarrior has been note single player (although it did have a good multiplayer offering as well), and more simulator than arena shooter. That's why I don't think I'm that surprised that our MechWarrior title we are playing is both E-Sport shooter orientated and Multiplayer only. Sign of the times I suppose.

I think we are lucky there is a nice indie scene in gaming that seems to give us some nice variety to an otherwise rather formulaic gaming scene.

Ultimately I think...THINK...they are less worried about creative expression and more concerned about making a title with a more guaranteed profit. I don't feel MechWarrior gave them that kind of confidence for a long while and when it did, they try to make it conform to the gaming norm to squeeze as much money out of it as possible.

Its just how I see it I suppose. Of course I am far from an expert, but it just feels that way. Gaming feels that way.

This may or may not be true.

What I can say for sure is the best way to make money in games is to make an excellent game, then sell fair sized 20ish dollar DLC's. MechWarrior Online has been doing it and their mech DLC's are most likely not worth it... not to be negative but to be completely honest. Maybe as early access content its worth it though. But anyway.

Fallout 4 is selling 50 to 70 dollar worth of DLC in their seasons pass and players are doing nothing but asking for more DLC even at additional cost. Fallout 4 has had to say like 5 times they are not making any more DLC and that Nuka World is the last one.

Players are begging for more for an offline game... They are taking up so much of the market already they are not hedging bets and repeating time and again theres no more coming. Hope that made sense.

Anyway, its no secret, make an awesome game, then sell DLC till the cows come home, for big money.

Theres no excuse to be making trash games.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 July 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 12 July 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

Theres no excuse to be making trash games.

Depends on one's definition of trash, I suppose. Creatively, a good chunk of the big studio games have been trash. But well marketed franchise extensions, of simplistic gameplay, short attention span shooters, and as such, they sell. Just as with music and movies, the sales charts show the vast majority of the purchasing public is not terribly discerning.

Which is why we are drowning in CoD clones and retreads, beyond craptastic transformers movies, bad anime and katy perry.

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 12 July 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

This may or may not be true.

What I can say for sure is the best way to make money in games is to make an excellent game, then sell fair sized 20ish dollar DLC's. MechWarrior Online has been doing it and their mech DLC's are most likely not worth it... not to be negative but to be completely honest. Maybe as early access content its worth it though. But anyway.

Fallout 4 is selling 50 to 70 dollar worth of DLC in their seasons pass and players are doing nothing but asking for more DLC even at additional cost. Fallout 4 has had to say like 5 times they are not making any more DLC and that Nuka World is the last one.

Players are begging for more for an offline game... They are taking up so much of the market already they are not hedging bets and repeating time and again theres no more coming. Hope that made sense.

Anyway, its no secret, make an awesome game, then sell DLC till the cows come home, for big money.

Theres no excuse to be making trash games.

Damn, and here I was hoping for a chance at more than just a couple of non crafting only DLC's... and a chance at joining the Enclave...

I mean there have been 4 Fallout games where you join the BoS, 6 if you count the non-canon games...

Canon:
Fallout
Fallout 3
Fallout 3 NV
Fallout 4

Non-Canon
Fallout Tactics (oddly enough the Power Armour in this one looks a lot like Enclave Power Armour)
Fallout; Brother Hood of Steel

Edited by Metus regem, 12 July 2016 - 09:26 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Depends on one's definition of trash, I suppose. Creatively, a good chunk of the big studio games have been trash. But well marketed franchise extensions, of simplistic gameplay, short attention span shooters, and as such, they sell. Just as with music and movies, the sales charts show the vast majority of the purchasing public is not terribly discerning.

Which is why we are drowning in CoD clones and retreads, beyond craptastic transformers movies, bad anime and katy perry.

Video games are the largest entertainment market now. There crowds that want a piece of the pie. The other entertainment slowly on the way out trying to hold on as long as possible. etc.

Huge subject.

Metus regem, on 12 July 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Damn, and here I was hoping for a chance at more than just a couple of non crafting only DLC's... and a chance at joining the Enclave...

I mean there have been 4 Fallout games where you join the BoS, 6 if you count the non-canon games...

Canon:
Fallout
Fallout 3
Fallout 3 NV
Fallout 4

Non-Canon
Fallout Tactics
Fallout; Brother Hood of Steel

If Bethesda is interested in money at all there is already another game being made on the Fallout 4 engine as we speak, much like New Vegas for FO 3 was. Even New Vegas was made by another studio for them, Obsidian Entertainment, so it may well be the case again. They made so much I doubt they could care less though, so maybe not.

I am almost 100% sure they are making an entirely new title like FO and ES though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 July 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 12 July 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Video games are the largest entertainment market now. There crowds that want a piece of the pie. The other entertainment slowly on the way out trying to hold on as long as possible. etc.

Huge subject.



If Bethesda is interested in money at all there is already another game being made on the Fallout 4 engine as we speak. They made so much I doubt they could care less though, so maybe not.

I am almost 100% sure they are making an entirely new title like FO and ES though.

Well they are doing ES6, on a new engine finally... I mean they have been using the same engine for so long... Morrowind right through to Fallout 4, it's about time they put it out to pasture....

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 12 July 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Video games are the largest entertainment market now. There crowds that want a piece of the pie. The other entertainment slowly on the way out trying to hold on as long as possible. etc.

Huge subject.



If Bethesda is interested in money at all there is already another game being made on the Fallout 4 engine as we speak, much like New Vegas for FO 3 was. Even New Vegas was made by another studio for them, Obsidian Entertainment, so it may well be the case again. They made so much I doubt they could care less though, so maybe not.

I am almost 100% sure they are making an entirely new title like FO and ES though.

don't tell Disney that movies are on the way out in favor of video games for the masses..... they might stop making those billion dollar grossing comic book movies I enjoy.

[Johnny Z]

Metus regem, on 12 July 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Well they are doing ES6, on a new engine finally... I mean they have been using the same engine for so long... Morrowind right through to Fallout 4, it's about time they put it out to pasture....

They can do what ever they want with new engines or almost anything. I think Fo 4 made 750 mill the first day or something. Maybe more. The seasons pass price was nearly doubled even soon after. That made tons to.

Metus regem, on 12 July 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Well they are doing ES6, on a new engine finally... I mean they have been using the same engine for so long... Morrowind right through to Fallout 4, it's about time they put it out to pasture....

Who knows but one thing is for sure, the entertainment landscape is changing big time.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Johnny Z, on 12 July 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

Video games are the largest entertainment market now. There crowds that want a piece of the pie. The other entertainment slowly on the way out trying to hold on as long as possible. etc.

Huge subject.

As video games get bigger, their cost for development skyrockets as well. This means big budgets that often rival movies. Look at the monster that was GTA V. What was it's cost to make? 350 million?

As the industry continues to grow and eclipse other forms of media, it will become ever increasingly more of a cutthroat industry where the risks will be greater and the need for a sure thing becomes more important.

I have a feeling that a AAA game that does poorly could (and often does) destroy a developer. One game could make or break you when games become ever increasingly more expensive. Even publishers who could absorb a big loss, won't because that means angry stock holders and VPs and Execs stepping down and resigning over blunders made in the marketplace.

More and more big budget games being made will gravitate to the sure thing and drift away from risky things like creativity or going against a popular genre. There is just too big a risk for failure.

We will still have the smaller devs and publishers that will experiment with new ideas with a relatively small budget. But big devs like EA, Activision, Blizzard, etc... It's twitch shooters with a heavy lean on multiplayer. That is until a new genre or idea comes about and becomes popular, then they all jump on board and clone that idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 July 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

As video games get bigger, their cost for development skyrockets as well. This means big budgets that often rival movies. Look at the monster that was GTA V. What was it's cost to make? 350 million?

As the industry continues to grow and eclipse other forms of media, it will become ever increasingly more of a cutthroat industry where the risks will be greater and the need for a sure thing becomes more important.

I have a feeling that a AAA game that does poorly could (and often does) destroy a developer. One game could make or break you when games become ever increasingly more expensive. Even publishers who could absorb a big loss, won't because that means angry stock holders and VPs and Execs stepping down and resigning over blunders made in the marketplace.

More and more big budget games being made will gravitate to the sure thing and drift away from risky things like creativity or going against a popular genre. There is just too big a risk for failure.

We will still have the smaller devs and publishers that will experiment with new ideas with a relatively small budget. But big devs like EA, Activision, Blizzard, etc... It's twitch shooters with a heavy lean on multiplayer. That is until a new genre or idea comes about and becomes popular, then they all jump on board and clone that idea.

Which is exactly what the Music and Movie industries have already done, which is why there is so little innovation and so much stagnation. And thus is the case in video games too.

Doesn't matter the media platform. The majority of the purchasing public are American Idol watching morons.

[MeiSooHaityu]

P.S. Even Fallout 4 is more of a FPS than ever before. Bethesda's new title Doom is also a shooter. Even then they worried that the multiplayer needed to be more modern (unlike the single player) so they designed a multiplayer system just like CoD that few liked and the multilayer is often panned and ignored. Even when a dev tries to be original, they are too affraid to fully commit and fall back in old tropes.