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Invisible Walls - Can Pgi Fix This?


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#1 Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 10:01 AM

This is a "feature" that I have real trouble with, and I don't know if PGI can do anything to fix it, or if it is a limitation of the game engine.

Invisible walls around structures where you should be able to shoot around or through, but can't, even though the mech is clearly visible and your weapons are definitely clearing the structure. Vitric and Hellbore both have really noticeable invisible walls.

Iunno if other maps do too, but I assume they do, just that those two are the ones that I noticed the most. The Orbital Cannon is also notorious for the invisible walls.

Examples:

http://imgur.com/bP0PLEQ

http://imgur.com/0QH6cUt

Posting here because I didn't know exactly where else this could go.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 12 July 2016 - 10:01 AM.


#2 JC Daxion

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 10:49 AM

Last town hall Russ stated they added 3 new map devs, and retro-ing the maps, along with invisible walls was a priority.

It might be a good community thing to have a dedicated thread, about this.. Perhaps PGI can communicate which maps are being worked on, and get the minions out in droves to find all the hidden walls. I dunno how exactly it all works, but i'd guess it is all about hit-boxes not lining up with visual structure. Perhaps it can be automated to some degree.. :)

#3 Tarogato

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 10:55 AM

This thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ision-feedback/

#4 Revis Volek

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 11:34 AM

They sure can and they already have Tele. They re did the edges of the terrain on Torurmaline and it is now awesome, i can actually shoot through the broken DS now and things like that. Why they ONLY did Tourmaline and not the worst offenders like HPG i have no idea.


We should really get back to asking for this, its an issue on almost every map except Tourmaline.

Edited by Revis Volek, 12 July 2016 - 01:22 PM.


#5 VorpalAnvil

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 11:57 AM

PGI

Fixing things

Pls pick one

#6 S 0 L E N Y A

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 12:30 PM

If they spent time fixing that how would they make more pretty mech packs?

#7 C E Dwyer

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 12:35 PM

View PostTelemachus Rheade, on 12 July 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

This is a "feature" that I have real trouble with, and I don't know if PGI can do anything to fix it, or if it is a limitation of the game engine.

Invisible walls around structures where you should be able to shoot around or through, but can't, even though the mech is clearly visible and your weapons are definitely clearing the structure. Vitric and Hellbore both have really noticeable invisible walls.

Iunno if other maps do too, but I assume they do, just that those two are the ones that I noticed the most. The Orbital Cannon is also notorious for the invisible walls.

Examples:

http://imgur.com/bP0PLEQ

http://imgur.com/0QH6cUt

Posting here because I didn't know exactly where else this could go.

send it into support pictures map loc, and they will eventually fix it, they have done work cleaning up maps in the past

#8 Moonlight Grimoire

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 01:23 PM

It was actually detailed in another thread or video, apparently it has something to do with LoD at range brackets and the fact that the game's terrain hit boxes seems to be based around the lowest level video quality, for some reason. I honestly have abused this on Canyon Network baiting people into shooting an invisible wall to waste their time and ammo.

Honestly they do need to fix these invisible walls, and we, the community, probably should do to catalog every single invisible wall and on what graphics setting they pop up on. I know they all show up on High at least. Hopefully now that PGI has 3 more map workers they can help clean up maps more, but, requires community feedback to find all of them, because this is one of those bugs that are hard to find all the instances of internally.

#9 Revis Volek

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 01:29 PM

View PostMoonlight Grimoire, on 12 July 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

It was actually detailed in another thread or video, apparently it has something to do with LoD at range brackets and the fact that the game's terrain hit boxes seems to be based around the lowest level video quality, for some reason. I honestly have abused this on Canyon Network baiting people into shooting an invisible wall to waste their time and ammo.

Honestly they do need to fix these invisible walls, and we, the community, probably should do to catalog every single invisible wall and on what graphics setting they pop up on. I know they all show up on High at least. Hopefully now that PGI has 3 more map workers they can help clean up maps more, but, requires community feedback to find all of them, because this is one of those bugs that are hard to find all the instances of internally.




LoD and the invisible walls have some stuff in common but even when the LoD draws correctly you can still have invisible walls. The best example of this i have is the TOP of HPG, if you are on the second deck and try to shoot up at someones head or upper torso and get you lasers to just skim by the top you will notice there is actually about 3-4 feet of invisible wall there and the little cuts and indents in the structure are actually fake.


Its Terrain Hit boxes and not really LoD, sure LoD is lame when you see people behind rocks but thats not what Tele is talking about i dont think.

Edited by Revis Volek, 12 July 2016 - 01:30 PM.


#10 Moonlight Grimoire

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 01:48 PM

Eh, I guess we have even more invisible walls than I was aware of in terms of their source. No matter what we need them fixed as it is universally frustrating to have a shot eaten by invisible geometry.

#11 Revis Volek

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 02:02 PM

View PostMoonlight Grimoire, on 12 July 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Eh, I guess we have even more invisible walls than I was aware of in terms of their source. No matter what we need them fixed as it is universally frustrating to have a shot eaten by invisible geometry.



Agreed, where they show up is irrelevant, the fact that we have them at all and they are so prevalent is the major issue here.

#12 ColdPsyker1

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 02:34 PM

I used to give them the benfit of the doubt way back in closed beta when I started.

"the game is only in beta" I told myself.

"it will get fixed soon" I said, trusting that PGI would have the minimum amount of brainpower and competance that any decent video game dev should have

Cue 3 and a half years later, and I have learned that all this game will ever be is a minimally viable product

#13 Bobzilla

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 04:04 PM

HPG was already "fixed" so get used to it.

#14 Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 07:48 PM

View PostTarogato, on 12 July 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:



Cool thanks. Yeah, a better word would have been "Terrain Hitboxes". I didn't know what to call it. Good to know that PGI is "working on it". Kinda sucks in an FPS, and I would think that this should be a top priority, especially if esports is a focus :/.

I posted in the other thread as well.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 12 July 2016 - 07:56 PM.


#15 Tarogato

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 04:35 AM

View PostTelemachus Rheade, on 12 July 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:


Cool thanks. Yeah, a better word would have been "Terrain Hitboxes". I didn't know what to call it. Good to know that PGI is "working on it". Kinda sucks in an FPS, and I would think that this should be a top priority, especially if esports is a focus :/.

I posted in the other thread as well.


Actually, the issue is with asset collida. If you want to see how it works, you can view this:

Basically, you take an asset (a modeled object) and copy over its shape and use that as the collision model. And then, because the collision model is something that you don't see in game, you can optimise it for performance by removing unnecessary vertices. This can be an automated process, but it's best to check things by hand at the end to make sure it's "close enough." Unfortunately, it seems that PGI just runs the automated process and doesn't manually check a lot of things afterword, so we end up with a lot of terrible collida.

Technically you'll never have this issue with terrain, as terrain is already at a somewhat low resolution and built into the game engine, so it will always have a 1-to-1 ratio with the visual model and collision model. Though, terrain is susceptible to terrible LoD - basically the further away the terrain is, the more the game will automatically simplify the visual model so that viewing vast distances isn't too demanding. I believe you can set the LoD ratio on a per-map basis, but PGI hasn't bothered, so sometimes even on maps like Polar Highlands, Alpine Peaks, and Boreal Vault, you'll see the base terrain pop in and out of existence when viewed at great distances, which can be incredibly annoying if you're using long range weapons (or trying to hide behind the crest of a hill not knowing that the enemy who's really far away can actually see you through it because his game is simplifying that hill to be flatter at that distance thus he can see through it... )

#16 Idealsuspect

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 05:14 AM

View PostTarogato, on 13 July 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

Actually, the issue is with asset collida. If you want to see how it works, you can view this


Nice post
The problem with PGI its even with square buildings, collisions meshs are bigger not 5 pixels but 50 and well for the "best esport game in tha world" it should be only 1 pixel bigger.

#17 Tarogato

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 05:38 AM

View PostIdealsuspect, on 13 July 2016 - 05:14 AM, said:


Nice post
The problem with PGI its even with square buildings, collisions meshs are bigger not 5 pixels but 50 and well for the "best esport game in tha world" it should be only 1 pixel bigger.


Even square buildings aren't square. =P

A lot of the issues you'll see with them is that they either have some kinda of awning or ledge at the top, or they have some kind of foundation or something (which is sometimes buried under the ground). When the geometry is simplified, the outer bounds including the awnings/ledges winds up being the dimensions of the collision. In cases of the HPG assets (which are actually very complex shapes), the ProOptimise (or whatever PGI uses) probably gets hung up and confused to the point that the collision can even be meters away from what it should be. They really need to go back and comb through all the assets by hand and correct these issues. It takes a little time, but it shouldn't be a difficult or complex task.

#18 Idealsuspect

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 05:46 AM

View PostTarogato, on 13 July 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

Even square buildings aren't square. =P

blablabla



http://imgur.com/bP0PLEQ

I repeat " The problem with PGI its even with square buildings, collisions meshs are bigger not 5 pixels but 50 and well for the "best esport game in tha world" it should be only 1 pixel bigger. "

#19 Aidan

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 06:38 AM

The issue of collision meshes is always one of accuracy of the collision mesh and efficient performance from the physics part of CRYENGINE. If you want extremely accurate collision meshes, you will suffer degraded performance. In other words, lower FPS. So take your pick.

I believe PGI has rightly assumed the MWO community would prefer higher performance.

#20 Kdogg788

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 07:30 AM

You're right on that. As a free to play game performance is the priority. Also map production is another priority despite terrain mesh issues on certain existing maps that are years old. Sides of rock faces and the crests of ridges for example.

-k





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